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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 15, 2014 10:55 AM |
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Stevie said:
But to be frank, I don't like it. Because there would be absolutely no difference between might heroes and magic ones at high level.
Well not really, at high level, the might stat would be higher for might class than that for magic class. This could work if the stat was linked to the skill/ability.
For example:
At level 20, might stat could be 14 for might faction and 5 for magic faction.
To get Attack skill you need pre-requisite 5 in might stat, but the attack skill does damage equal to might stat x % (certain percentage).
Very simple, but just an example.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 15, 2014 11:22 AM |
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Right, just examples.
The first thing is, that it makes sense, when the secondary skills are somewhat mirroring the general hero tendency. You'd frown over heroes with low Might and high Magic stats that come with Might skills and Warcries, but only a few hand-picked magic skills and vice versa - in that case, something was wrong with skill balance anyway.
Also, "LEARNING" an ability, skill or perk - whatfrom? So generally it's not wrong to see primary and secondary skills be somewhat "in communion".
The second thing is, that we have had two systems
1) probability driven random assignment of primaries and probability-based random pre-selection of skills/perks with limited picking options and
2) pre-determined primary assignment for each hero class and completely free "ability" pick with pre-determined bonus-additions.
With the first way, limiting skills for hero classes makes no sense - you can do it via the assignment of probabilities. You may have class specific perks, but that's it.
However, with free picks some kind of limitation makes sense to simply limit the options and to allow a sufficient number of different, but still working hero builds.
ONE WAY to do this is the way it works in Legacy. Heroes have varying skill trees, depending on their race, with every "hero class" having strengths and weaknesses.
My point was, that I'm not happy with this for HOMM: with an RPG you hire a party, so you CAN HAVE everything, albeit divided onto different heroes.
With HoMM, however, that kind of limitations makes a lot less sense, since you will mostly develop only one hero per game.
My second point was, that it also makes no sense - with a view on story-stelling - to have a too limited range for hero classes; stereotypes, even if paragons, make no good stories; instead it's the outsiders that deliver them, the guys who are somewhat black sheep: the Knight that casts a decent Fireball or the Wizard who's also a master tactician.
Naturally, these guys should be EXCEPTIONS.
That in turn means, if you want a) free pick, b) DIFFERENT hero classes, and c) options and opportunities to come up with uncommon hero builds - THEN the kind of thing I described would work well, since depending on how the screws are turned in the general game setting, you can produce every wished-for result.
For simplicity's sake this MIGHT look that way - just to give an example - that you can take a hero class, assign a number of fully available skills/perks to them, make another couple (say, Dark Magic for Haven heroes) unavailable, but have SOME for each class that have primary skill requirements, making them in effect something like Wildcards.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 16, 2014 08:14 AM |
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That's also the thing, from H1 - H3 you used multiple heroes, but H4 onwards you focused on one primary hero.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 16, 2014 08:37 AM |
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Not true - not in HoMM 4.
When you play a non-campaign HoMM 4 map that is not scripted to be played with one hero only (a quasi- or mini-campaign), you won't get far with one hero.
That's not only because each primary skill slot can use up 20 level-ups and you can't get everything useful with on hero, you'll also get more levels this way. Plus, with only 5 different creatures in one town, usually there is room for more.
For one thing, XP-booster can be used by every hero, be it the one in the Chaos town or the 1000XP-gainers on the map.
Then look at the XP table of HoMM IV:
Level 2: 1000
Level 3: 2000
Level 4: 3200
Level 5: 4600
Level 6: 6200
Level 7: 8100
Level 8: 10300
Level 9: 12900
Level 10: 16000
Level 11: 19700
Level 12: 24100
Level 13: 29300
Level 14: 35500 ...
See that? If you collect the XP with one hero, by the time your hero reaches Level 14, if you had started with 2 heroes in your army, both would be Level 10 by now. Bringing in a 3rd one on day 8 would give you something like 2 Level 9s plus one level 7 or something like that.
When it comes to Heroes, HoMM 4 is the game to play, because you can just have a ton of them. Often, a fairly low level hero in the army with either Song of Peace, Wasp Swarm or Confusion does more good than a stack of level 1 creatures, for example.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 16, 2014 12:02 PM |
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Good point, my bad. From H5 you used one hero only...
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 18, 2014 09:30 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:30, 18 Jan 2014.
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I can't believe in all that discussion we were missing a crucial point: the Enlightenment skill from H5 which gives you more primaries. Would be a must-take skill for any hero.
What about artifacts that give primaries too? Would those count also? I'd say no for obvious reasons...
And just so you know guys, I still want me mastery levels and perks 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 18, 2014 09:45 PM |
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Stevie said:
I can't believe in all that discussion we were missing a crucial point: the Enlightenment skill from H5 which gives you more primaries. Would be a must-take skill for any hero.
Enlightenment could be different too (not that I'd that much thou..)
Stevie said:
What about artifacts that give primaries too? Would those count also? I'd say no for obvious reasons...
No, those are "temporary" bonus. The calculation should be made with the base stats, imo.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 20, 2014 07:05 AM |
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Stevie said:
I can't believe in all that discussion we were missing a crucial point: the Enlightenment skill from H5 which gives you more primaries. Would be a must-take skill for any hero.
Not all the time, in Elvin's duel maps yes, but on adventure maps, sometimes to speed up your progress other skills were needed first (like leadership for Haven, or destructive for warlock) and then get enlightenment later on....besides some factions had only 2% chance of getting that skill.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2014 08:15 AM |
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The Enlightenment skill in HoMM 5 was a compromise.
Enlightenment/Learning as a skill is what is called a Meta Skill, because it basically effects the game process as such.
In my opinion such skills should not be in the game, because they are not giving the game anything. Generally, these skills are no-brainers, whether to take them or not.
It makes no sense to have skills for skill's sake.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 20, 2014 12:06 PM |
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In duel maps where everything was equal, Enlightenment could make a difference, but generally in adventure maps, I found on Academy and Necro really benefitted from the skill (due to abilities branching off the skill too).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2014 12:24 PM |
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I don't know about being a compromise, the fact is that it was way more beneficial than H3 Learning. And tell me one skill that doesn't affect the game process or whatever. Luck gives luck, Leadership gives morale, Sorcery improves spell casting and Enlightenment gives primaries and some bonus xp. I don't see what the problem is.
And I totally agree on the skill being beneficial to Necro and Academy, not necessarily because of the branches, but because bonus primary skills are always good and make a difference (especially when you're high lvl). The xp part though is... meh.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 20, 2014 12:38 PM |
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Stevie said:
I don't know about being a compromise, the fact is that it was way more beneficial than H3 Learning. And tell me one skill that doesn't affect the game process or whatever. Luck gives luck, Leadership gives morale, Sorcery improves spell casting and Enlightenment gives primaries and some bonus xp. I don't see what the problem is.
And I totally agree on the skill being beneficial to Necro and Academy, not necessarily because of the branches, but because bonus primary skills are always good and make a difference (especially when you're high lvl). The xp part though is... meh.
The problem that Necropolis had (for example), is that they always had VERY LOW KNOWLEDGE. They were always short on mana and very high on Spell Power. So with Enlightment, they'd solve that problem and get some very needed extra mana.
As JJ said, if Enlightment is like H5, is a no-brainer because it's just too good. While having all secondary skills equally useful it's an utopia, it's not that hard to realize which skills are too much, imo.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2014 12:44 PM |
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I can't believe I have to explain that.
In HoMM 5 there are 6 skill slots, each skill slot offering 3 skill levels plus one perk for each skill level.
Enlightenment, when you take a look at the LEARNING part (the additional XP), uses up one of those 6 skill slots, and if the skill doesn't give anything else, in a long game where you can fill all slots with something USEFUL, you simply lose at least 3 useful skill levels (provided at least the perks are useful).
So the LEARNING part can gain only when
a) a game will not last long enough so that your hero can level fully up and
b) if you gain the skill levels back you spend on Enlightenment.
Example: You play a map on which a hero main gain only 24 levels. In this case, picking Enlightenment may (and MUST, in fact, otherwise it doesn't pay)lead to a hero gaining at least the number of levels spent on Enlightenment IN ADDITION. So with Expert Enlightenment you should end on level 27 (at least), gaining 3 more points in primary skill.
Ideally you also must get the skill EARLY (which means, that you miss out something else youmay dearly need.)
However, with the non-linear XP curve in HOMM, a linear XP gain as the LEARNING effectwon't make up for that - you'd never get really ahead, so the disadvantages are too many. For that reason, the primary stat gain was added, since not only does this make Enlightenment a really good skill, in fact, even OP, it also can be taken AT ANY TIME as well (leading to immediate stat gain.
However, you get a point in primary skills ANYWAY with each level up, plus you may get some by visiting map objects and equip artifacts. Skills and Perks SHOULD NOT give primaries as well, they should give ABILITIES and SITUATIONAL ones at that.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2014 01:14 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
The problem that Necropolis had (for example), is that they always had VERY LOW KNOWLEDGE. They were always short on mana and very high on Spell Power. So with Enlightment, they'd solve that problem and get some very needed extra mana.
That's the point in using Mark of the Necromancer. I never took Enlightenment to increase my mana pool, but for the ultimate skill.
JollyJoker said:
However, you get a point in primary skills ANYWAY with each level up, plus you may get some by visiting map objects and equip artifacts. Skills and Perks SHOULD NOT give primaries as well, they should give ABILITIES and SITUATIONAL ones at that.
Then remove Luck and Leadership while you're at it, cuz those give primaries too. Such a fuss for some extra skill points, you'd get +10 skill points at lvl 20, is that so op?
And let me get this, would you remove this skill from the game entirely or change it to do something else? What about the perks?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 20, 2014 01:36 PM |
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Stevie said:
Storm-Giant said:
The problem that Necropolis had (for example), is that they always had VERY LOW KNOWLEDGE. They were always short on mana and very high on Spell Power. So with Enlightment, they'd solve that problem and get some very needed extra mana.
That's the point in using Mark of the Necromancer. I never took Enlightenment to increase my mana pool, but for the ultimate skill.
Maybe you didn't, but the rest of the world probably did. And you can get BOTH, which is better...
Stevie said:
JollyJoker said:
However, you get a point in primary skills ANYWAY with each level up, plus you may get some by visiting map objects and equip artifacts. Skills and Perks SHOULD NOT give primaries as well, they should give ABILITIES and SITUATIONAL ones at that.
Then remove Luck and Leadership while you're at it, cuz those give primaries too. Such a fuss for some extra skill points, you'd get +10 skill points at lvl 20, is that so op?
Luck and Morale don't work in the same way as A/D/SP/K.
And please, don't compare skills that give +3 to luck/morale with a skill that can give up to +15 to A/D/SP/K. They're not on the same level.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2014 01:58 PM |
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Also Luck and Moral are no primaries, except in HoMM 6, but there things are different anyway (and there is no such skill), but only a perk to gain more XP).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2014 03:11 PM |
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Speaking of which, should the morale and luck systems in H6 be ported to future MMH's? What do you guys think about those in terms of mechanics and skills?
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 21, 2014 07:44 AM |
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The luck skill of H5 was way OP especially for might factions.
For H5, you can't really compare primary stats to luck & morale. Luck maxed out at 5 (which was 50% chance to trigger) and attack skill could go to 20, 30 even more, so the point in each can't be compared.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 21, 2014 08:49 AM |
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I'm not satisfied with how Moral and Luck work.
LUCK is something much more general than getting additional damage - it might also mean getting LESS damage when hit.
Which means, I would prefer WAY more trigger possibilities with less probability (it's LUCK after all, which means, it should be unlikely) and some other (additional) effect than just increased or decreased damage. Luck might trigger in attack AND defense and apart from adding/subtracting a percentage (+25%/-20% damage), the additional effect might be to kill +1/-1 unit - unimportant with high numbers, but potentially an issue in low numbers combat.
Then there is moral. A double turn, as it was in earlier games, is excessive, whereas the half-turn solution of HoMM 6 too often amounts to not being able to really make use of it, because hitting something new is no good with only half power, so often you can just mop something up, defend for additional defense or move to a better position.
However, Moral means - or SHOULD mean - that a unit is overcome with an inner strength allowing it to stand and fight even against the worst odds or attack successfully against bad odds. So Moral could trigger on attack as well as on defense and MIGHT give an attack/defense boost when attacking/defending AGAINST NEGATIVE ODDS AND counter adverse affects like Fear (unit flees) and Moral Loss plus all spells/abilities based on Mind effects (for example, the Calming abilities of Vestals and Lilim in HoMM 6 - bottom line is, MORAL should give you an opportunity to attack or defend against bad odds and prevail. The attack/defense boost might simply neutralize the difference in attack and defense, so that, say, a stack of Crushers being attacked by a stack of Archangels, having good Moral, would get their defense raised so that there was no positive modifier for the Angels anymore (with considerable less damage).
I also think, that there should be (much more) Bad Luck and Bad Morale, which means, the values should be WAY smaller, with more chances to get a bad effect. If a friendly stack was destroyed, for example, it should have a negative effect on Moral (and think about what THAT would mean for splitting single units off as blockers). Seeing Bad Luck happen too often should have a negative effect on Moral (seeing Luck happen often should have a good effect); killing s stack JUST SO (with a minimum of overkill) should increase Luck, and so on.
What I want is more or less a system that's working rather subdued in the background, triggering here and there with not that much effect, but may develop its own dynamic over a course of battle starting a chain reaction, as opposed to, seeing an unconnected lucky hit by a champion stack followed by a double turn and it's game over, that is, much more volatile and fluent values for Luck and Moral over the course of a battle.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 21, 2014 10:42 AM |
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Mind if I join. I like this topic and I would like to add something to it.
I agree that luck as a mechanick is not used in its full potential, and looks very "one sided" We know there are negativeluck effects, but how often did we encounter them. (Last time I saw them was H5?, befor that H1/2).
How I would like Luck to work is on a coparible level. A system where the luck values of each unit would influence the values of its oponent.
Example:
Let's say a natural luck is 20%, for both good and bad luck, to triger the effect. Each additional point of luck increases this chance by 2,5% for luck, and decreases for unluck (with 40% beeing the top values).
When two units clash, their Luck walues are compared.
Unit A has a luck value of 2, Unit B has a luck value of 1.
(2-1)=1 Unit A gets a bonus of 2,5% to its luck, whyle unit B get a its bad luck value increased by the same number.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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