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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 12, 2014 02:06 PM |
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5 levels of mastery are way too much.
4 maybe. But each level up should give a noticeable feeling of progression. Getting most of the skills from the adv. map wouldn't be very fun, imo
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 12, 2014 02:16 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 14:24, 12 Jan 2014.
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H5 had a lot more than 3 perks per skill so I don't see why that would be an issue  And I agree that not all classes should have access to the same skills or at least that some would be rarer if the skill system goes back to random. But not 2% rare like in H5.
Back to MMX now.
ELVES!
HYBRID: Ranger
The Ranger is a great range damage dealer, using his/her bow and the magic support of Earth. He/she has a very good perception and finds the vulnerable spots of his/her enemies.
He/she can carry all kinds of weapons, but lacks the might to be really deadly in melee combat. However, the Ranger can learn a lot about Warfare to get quite a useful fighter, since he/she has a lot of mana to spend. As all Elves, he/she prefers light armor and is pretty fragile, but evades attacks very skillfully.
High dodge, endurance, dual wield, daggers, sword, bow. Yep, seems like a typical ranger. Likes air and earth spells.
The Advanced Class of the Ranger is the Warden.
Point Blank Shot: The warden can launch ranged attacks at enemies even in close range.
MAGIC: Druid
Druids are the priests of Sylanna, Elemental Dragon of Earth and living embodiment of Nature. As such they are granted control over the magic of the elements, which they call upon in times of peril.
The Druids, compared to the human Freemages, are still closer to nature and the elements. This reflects in them being a bit more resilient - it's not uncommon to meet Druids wearing a spear instead of magic foci. They favor earth, water and prime magic and have mastered the art of channeling mana through mysticism, which enables them to reach the biggest mana capacity of all classes.
The Advanced Class of the Druid is the Druid Elder.
The title of Druid Elder is received in a dream. The Dragon Goddess of Earth, Sylanna, visits a Druid and asks them to dedicate their lives to the protection of Asha's creation and Sylanna's gardens. The title is confirmed by two other Druid Elders who come to the Druid saying, "I saw you and the Dragon in my dream. Welcome child of Sylanna."
The Druid Elder¢s spell "Harmony" calms all enemies. Only those close to the party will regain their hostility.
Here's another pic of the classes I've covered so far. Dwarves to follow.
EDIT:
Made a mistake, the ranger is the hybrid class. Elf might class is the blade danger
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2014 03:01 PM |
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Just wanted to point out, Freemage is GM in Prime, Dark and Air not Fire.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 12, 2014 04:05 PM |
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Thanks. I wonder if the skill list was faulty or it got changed after the class was revealed.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 12, 2014 06:06 PM |
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Pardon my pedantries, but 'Earth damage'?
Wouldn't that just be physical damage, could someone explain this to me?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 12, 2014 06:43 PM |
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Elemental damage isn't exactly clear cut. For instance we have geyser and icebolt in water, gust of wind and lightning in air, earthquake and acid cloud in earth.. Earth counts ground shockwaves as much as wasp swarms, acid and plant toxins.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 12, 2014 07:22 PM |
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mwll-Vlaad
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 13, 2014 08:40 AM |
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Elvin said:
Welcome Vlaad, thanks for taking the time to go through the thread I think the real concern is whether H7 will be an actually good game or a so-so one, to pass the time and move on. And making a good heroes is (for me) a matter of getting the base mechanics right, covering the essential features/content and designing the game in a way that you can easily improve or add to it. If the mechanics are unclear or in contrast with each other, things will get messy in the future. If there are less than 6 factions or we lack sim turns/RMG there won't be much replayability. If the game is not easy to update we'll get the H5-6 situation all over again, with each patch introducing new bugs and patches getting less and less frequent.
...
Thanks for the hospitality
If we look at the heroes history well find out that most successful heroes (3) was actually a major graphical update to with fraction add-ons to already tried and tested formula tested in previous games. In conclusion, we cant say heroes 3 was in any way original but rather the end step in evolution of NWC's franchise. When talking what we would like to see in H7, we must take a look at the games history, why some mechanics was there in the first place...
*edit*--> I could go wild here but it would not be on topic. Ill pop a new thread dedicated to game mechanics.
Elvin said:
Regarding your idea, I am more in favour of the abilities being tied to the heroes rather than the units. Each unit needs some abilities to feel distinctive and fun to play(I liked how H5 made all units feel special) but on the other hand I feel that H6 went overboard. It was fun but I'm not sure it was really needed. Instead of a ton of generic abilities I'd prefer fewer and more distinctive ones. If it was possible to have a deep skill system AND a wealth of unit abilities I wouldn't mind but will we get that kind of budget? I'd rather see a might hero with several playable builds - each making your army play very differently - than a might hero with more or less the same build but more unit abilities and combos. I find hero building more important for the series than increasing the role of the units. In fact, I would like adventure skills to be just as important as combat skills. To make the adventure map more interesting and interactive.
Cant say that I agree with you on units. h5 had some interesting mechanics but in general I did find units a bit boring and generic without any co-relation between them first 4 units of H5 fortress, well most of the fractions, were in fact incredibly boring and in function were re-skinned cannon fodder (save for orcs who had persistently best game mechanics in franchise). h6 for me is logical extension of H5. Yes, some abilities do feel forced but some are actually very interesting and logical and really using units and their respective abilities in right order and in right time makes entire new dimension on playing combat. Some units can put constraints and can have great impact but are not practical: kenshi/kensei for example is not particularly useful (Large,walker) compared to say leech(ranged), manticore(flying,paralyze), tormentor(small, damage resistant, spikes) but in time can make up by locking up and in time can stack up its attacks. So its this individuality of units that, I think, shines in h6 but it does not negate the hero in any way. Game itself however has some bad game mechanics, bugs and therefore poor "replayability". One thing I would like to see is hero reputation influence ability direction of the castle development/units. Generic "I-look-different-but-do-the-same-thing" from h3 is something that we should walk away from.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 09:35 AM |
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Well, you can't have it all, can you?
You have to start with the hero, them go from there to creatures.
Everyone who plays the game should agree that the hero should make the difference. You wouldn't want to have more or less identical hero builds and then find that a certain faction will win in that situation due to a certain creature combo doing some antics on the battlefield - instead you'd want to win because the hero cast a couple of powerful spells in the right moment or had a skill/perk combination that worked well under any given circumstances.
On the other hand - the more active abilities you have on the units, the less you need the hero, except as a fighter. Which is EXACTLY what HoMM 6 has been suffering from: when you start creeping, UNITS suddenly take the function of heroes, healing, regenerating or raising the dead, while the hero suddenly takes the role of a unit with the following abilities: Unlimited range; ranged attack; unattackable. And all that without any cost.
That leads to a completely upside-down gameplay - your units are just an alibi on the bf to allow the hero to strike.
A HoMM 5 example are the Stalkers - invisibility in HoMM 5 is such an imbalance it's not even funny anymore.
The thing is that LOW LEVEL units with this kind of power simply don't make sense. You just cannot have spectacular fights with a freshly hired hero, and you just cannot have spectacular units early in the game.
Now, when you have 1 hero and up to 7 creature stacks to begin with plus additional possibilities to add more stacks to the fray, summoning, gating, raising whatever, what you absolutely do NOT want is to change that relation, by having suddenly 4 heroes and 4 troop stacks.
So let's say, we have an Elfen unit ability "Wood Armour", active, works like a mass spell can be cast twice per battle and adds +8 might and +4 magic defense to all friendly units for a duration of 3 rounds (multiplied with a factor based on a power comparison).
If it's a Core unit ability, it means that throughout creeping your units will have a significantly higher defense without the hero being forced to act on THAT behalf (and is free to do something else).
Late in the game - in battles against other armies or tough opponents, a core stack is even less needed as a prime damage doer - so the result is actually the same: the unit will miss the speed and the punch to immediately act, and starting up with a spell like that is just fine.
However - if the Treants would have such an ability as either an expensive Elite or even Champion unit, not only will you have to creep without the benefit of that ability, at least for some time, you will also have to sacrifice a turn of a very powerful unit.
Basically, there is nothing wrong with the Core tier being MUNDANE. One ranged unit, one tank or blocker and one "other". If you look at HoMM 6, the Orcs are a good example. The Goblins (the upgrade might have the crippling trap ability) are weak ranged troops with an active ability, but one with incalculable power. The Harpies/Furies have great passive abilities, the upgrade coming with the no retal thing, and the Maulers/Crushers being an incredibly powerful tank, the basic unit having some ranged protection, with the upgrade being of course way over the top (the second hit should do only half damage - you might call that "backswing").
That's as good as it gets - in this case you had 3 core units, the upgrades adding significant abilities, but nothing over the top. That's the maximum of what is possible - there CANNOT be all Chieftains and no Indians.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted January 13, 2014 09:42 AM |
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Agreed; the core units play too heavily a role in the game.
I think H5 did a good job of making the lower-tier units weak but still relevant in the late game. This is served, for example, with the peasants. Weak fodder unit, but even later game they give you some extra income. Imps have mana drain for the beginning of the battle. Skeletons are a ranged unit or can be used as a shield. Goblins could set a trap that is handy in any final fight.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 10:16 AM |
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I dunno, I'd like to have core creatures that are useful in late game also. Not just a means to get through the early game, rushing to higher tiers, then toss them into the garrison. And I didn't felt that H6 was that bad in this regards, just that there were too many actives, but the core synergy was nice imo, especially the one from Haven. Tank + Range Dps + Support, was that so overkill?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 11:29 AM |
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Yes.
The idea is TO HAVE LOSSES. No losses translate to NO DIFFERENCE.
Since we talk about Haven. The change with Core units in patch 1.7 (or maybe it was 1.6) was completely my idea - we couldn't change the abilities as such or add something new, but the basic units (Ghosts, Sisters, Coral Priestesses) allowing to resurrect in addition to that being Basic tier hero abilities was a little too much.
So we simply took away the resurrection abilities from the basic troop type and gave them what should have been the better ability.
Now, if you look at the Sisters and the Vestals, the extremely powerful Calming ability of at first the Vestals only and later the Sisters as well, as powerful as it is, it's a COMBAT ability, that is, the Sisters must go into combat, and it works passive, provided their power is enough.
The Healing ability however, is bogging things down: you try to do damage with THE HERO, and the marksmen and ideally shield everything with Praetorians, by walking them upfront, healing their losses with Sisters.
The first thing - albeit the ability is way too strong - is forcing you into combat. The second one is suggesting to stall things.
Generally, we would expect Raising tactics from Necro - but that's what the hero is there for. I mean, if you look at Necro in HoMM 6, the amount of stuff there to bring back dead units is ridiculous: Ghosts, Racial, Liches, Life Drain, even Regeneration, I mean, what the hell?
Battles MUST be designed in a way, so that better tactics will make a difference IN EACH halfway significant battle (and with that we certainly do NOT mean the correct application of a stand-out active unit ability). Because then and only then better players will field bigger armies in the end.
Mind you, there is nothing wrong with PERKS, that make Core units stronger. If you want that - why not? But rule of thumb is, if you want that, it should "cost" you, in this case level-up(s) that you will have to sacrifice.
This is what you have to keep in mind. Fancy units is something you should be able to get by picking the right stuff with your heroes, not because the units are already great from the start. I mean, if you think about it - doesn't it strike you odd, that in HoMM 6, after picking a few essentials like Heal and Tactics, spending the ability points on your hero isn't all that pressing? Isn't it somewhat strange, that in HoMM 3 and HoMM 5 you are always on the lookout for the next level-up, always wanting a certain something to appear for picking, never being enough - while in HoMM 6 you can just bide your time and don't bother?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 13, 2014 11:54 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Yes.
The idea is TO HAVE LOSSES. No losses translate to NO DIFFERENCE.
Totally agree. H6 had way too many resurrection abilities (and very early too), I hope in H7 it's different (and more special and rare).
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 13, 2014 12:09 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I mean, if you think about it - doesn't it strike you odd, that in HoMM 6, after picking a few essentials like Heal and Tactics, spending the ability points on your hero isn't all that pressing? Isn't it somewhat strange, that in HoMM 3 and HoMM 5 you are always on the lookout for the next level-up, always wanting a certain something to appear for picking, never being enough - while in HoMM 6 you can just bide your time and don't bother?
Exactly. Sometimes in H6 I wouldn't use ability points from like level 8 until reaching level 15, so that when you get to unlock 3rd row of abilities, you can pick multiple of them at once!
The main reason for not needing to choose hero abilities in H6 is because the creatures had great abilities themselves so hero didn't need to worry, and hero abilities sucked (well the majority of them).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 12:28 PM |
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Well, just remove the healing active from the vestals and it's all good. You'll force the hero to take some healing spells, but I think it's better this way also.
And about the skill system in H6, I did't like it at all. Just terrible, won't even bother to bring arguments.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 13, 2014 12:41 PM |
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Stevie said:
Well, just remove the healing active from the vestals and it's all good. You'll force the hero to take some healing spells, but I think it's better this way also.
And about the skill system in H6, I did't like it at all. Just terrible, won't even bother to bring arguments.
Skillwheel is a good base to start working with
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 12:49 PM |
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But the same rule is valid for all other fancy abilities. If a creature has it, you don't need the hero to pick it.
On the other hand, no one needs abilities like "reduces defense of hit target by 1".
I would, however, think, that the same should be true the other way round. Allowing a unit to retaliate first, for example should be a unique thing for a unit, not a hero ability.
So the ART - that is, the key to make this good - is giving units unique abilities that are useful, but don't replace a hero action and vice versa, and what's making things quite difficult now is the idea that especially might heroes must have active abilities beside spells as well.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 01:19 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Skillwheel is a good base to start working with
Skillwheel with 5 mastery levels and around 10 perks per skill, with only 5 of them active at a time. How does that sound?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 13, 2014 01:39 PM |
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I dont' like needing to memorize a wheel just to know how effective my
'build' will be in the long run ("What will this unlock, etc")
'sides, most perks make more sense as spells or creature abilities.
You'd be hard pressed to invent some who don't.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 01:45 PM |
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Way too complex.
A lot depends on the number of levels possible in the game. A point of primary skill should not be insignificant on one hand, but on the other hand a fully leveled hero should not completely off-set the unit stats.
That means, the number of hero levels is fairly limited to what we have 30 or 35 maybe 40. but let's say 35. If you had something like 12 skills with 3 levels each plus racials, every skill having 6 perks, that will be 18 skills with potentially 117 skills/abilities to pick from, I don't think that wouldn't be enough.
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This thread is pages long: 
