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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 13, 2014 01:54 PM |
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Stevie said:
Storm-Giant said:
Skillwheel is a good base to start working with 
Skillwheel with 5 mastery levels and around 10 perks per skill, with only 5 of them active at a time. How does that sound?
Sometimes it's more about quality than quantity, Stevie 
Not to mention 600+ skills/abilities would bring a hell of bugs, and we already experienced H6...
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 03:50 PM |
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It's obvious that the game's potential is nearly endless, especially in terms of hero's abilities. It's undoubtedly possible to create an extremely interesting Ability Tree that doesn't include any meaningless skills and contains numerous amazing perks individual for heroes of different alignments and affinities with a quantity of possible combinations. Several months ago I used to write here about the idea of mixing magic schools that should result in the emergence of some new sections of the Ability Tree. I'll try to explain it later on a simple example of two magic schools being combined in a relatively new Ability Tree branch (of course, with each of them still having its own separate section). And this wouldn't be much more complex than the skill system from "Heroes V".
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 04:01 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Way too complex.
A lot depends on the number of levels possible in the game. A point of primary skill should not be insignificant on one hand, but on the other hand a fully leveled hero should not completely off-set the unit stats.
That means, the number of hero levels is fairly limited to what we have 30 or 35 maybe 40. but let's say 35. If you had something like 12 skills with 3 levels each plus racials, every skill having 6 perks, that will be 18 skills with potentially 117 skills/abilities to pick from, I don't think that wouldn't be enough.
I already responded to Elvin on this subject, you can easily get skill points from completing secondary quest from huts as rewards or map objects like witch huts or academies, not just from level-ups. But I get the point of having only 30-40 levels, though if I remember correctly H5 had a cap of 50. But just saying, with lvl 5 mastery + 5 perks = 10 skill points to be used, so you can get a maximum of 5 secondary skills with all their perks with a lvl 50 hero. And even if there are more skills slots available (like 6 slots in H5 and 8 in H3), you could fill them in the manner I specified above. How does that sound now?
Oh, and I've just saw that in H5 skillwheel 3.01 the Demon Lord already has 2 skills with 10 perks, and the rest with 9, 8 and 7, so I'm not asking for that much really
Storm-Giant said:
Sometimes it's more about quality than quantity, Stevie
Not to mention 600+ skills/abilities would bring a hell of bugs, and we already experienced H6...
More about 180 skills + perks, check your calculus. It's 5 (mastery levels) x 12 (skills) = 60; Then 10 (perks) x 12 (skills) = 120; 60 + 120 = 180, though I think around 200 would be a nicer number.
And trust me, I could figure out 10 perks for each of the 12 skills if I really wanted to. It wouldn't be that hard. Haven't you seen my other post?
Stevie said:
--> Tactics ---> ...
- ---> Blade of Fire (with Master of Fire)
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Attack -> --> Battle Frenzy ---> Blade of Ice (with Master of Ice)
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- ---> Blade of Storms (with Master of Storms)
--> Archery ---> ...
Maybe a bit simplistic, but it wouldn't be that hard.
I was thinking you could combine the tactics perk with some other ones from Defense and Logistics. And maybe expand the Archery one into some range penalty reductions or something similar... maybe even extra shot chance, or some bulls eye effect..... Yet another post where I'm fantasizing, daym!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 13, 2014 05:50 PM |
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At the rate things are going we won't even need creature abilities anymore.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 13, 2014 06:44 PM |
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Stevie said:
But I get the point of having only 30-40 levels, though if I remember correctly H5 had a cap of 50.
I would swear it is 30.
Stevie said:
Storm-Giant said:
Sometimes it's more about quality than quantity, Stevie
Not to mention 600+ skills/abilities would bring a hell of bugs, and we already experienced H6...
More about 180 skills + perks, check your calculus. It's 5 (mastery levels) x 12 (skills) = 60; Then 10 (perks) x 12 (skills) = 120; 60 + 120 = 180, though I think around 200 would be a nicer number.
And who would make 200 "unique" perks? and who'd code them?
JJ numbers seem more reasonable and feasible. With expansions there could be added a few more, maybe. Don't forget a Heroes game, by itself, it's a huge investment for the vanilla version.
And more than a few fans'd rage if H7 wouldn't come with some kind of Simultaneous Turns
Stevie said:
And trust me, I could figure out 10 perks for each of the 12 skills if I really wanted to. It wouldn't be that hard. Haven't you seen my other post?
I find boring those "blade of x" perks
Avirosb said:
At the rate things are going we won't even need creature abilities anymore.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 08:01 PM |
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I can safely say that there are around 150 different perks in H5. I don't get why 200 seems that much. It's not that big of an effort to code 50 more. But never mind me, go with 117 or whatever and have a game that's even less of what H5 is.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 13, 2014 10:20 PM |
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Safely is not safe, actually. It's about 120 perks plus the 8 ultimates.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 14, 2014 04:48 AM |
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I counted 11 for War Machines, 14 for Enlightenment, 12 each For Logistics and Leadership, and then gave up. As for the disparity in counts, remember that Stronghold Heroes get Shouts instead of Sorcery, and Shatter Magic schools rather than normal magic ones.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2014 08:06 AM |
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Right, I can't count anymore. 
We have:
Attack: 11
Defense: 12
Leadership: 12
War Machines: 11
Dark Magic: 9
Destructive Magic: 10
Light Magic: 10
Summoning Magic: 10
Shatter Dark: 5
Shatter Destructive: 5
Shatter Light: 6
Shatter Summoning: 5
Shout: 5
Sorcery: 10
Enlightenment: 14
Logistics: 12
Luck: 11
Plus 32 racial perks
All in all 190 Perks, about half of which usable for a single hero.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 14, 2014 09:54 AM |
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Didn't TotE added a bunch of new peks? (and I'm talking not only about shatter skills...)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2014 11:22 AM |
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Okay, in a skill/perk system it makes sense when all hero classes have distinct and individual skill wheels, but there is another important factor, and that's the question of whether "the draw" will be free - like in HoMM 6 - or chance-based - like in HoMM 5.
Here is an idea I recently had that should allow everything:
If you imagine the HoMM 5 skill wheel - modified, of course, but generally comparable -, how about allowing a PRIMARY SKILL PREREQUISITE for skills/perks depending on hero class (this assumes, Luck and Morale are NOT primary skills), not counting artifact values?
You could block stuff completely (giving a Basic skill level values of 99 for each primary, making the whole skill unavailable), you could block stuff partly (giving an Expert skill that values or specific perks), you could make it completely open (giving values of 0 everywhere), and you could give things any values you desired to distinguish and to, well, guide, development.
Example: For Haven heroes, there might be no prerequisites on Light Magic, while Dark Magic might be value 99 on everything.
The rest of the Magic skills might have different prerequisites in MAGIC (magic attack + magic defense OR Power + Knowledge), for example, Basic Air 2 points in Magic, Advanced Air 8 in Magic and Expert Air 14 in Magic, or Basic Prime 4 in Magic, Advanced Prime 12 in Magic, Expert Prime 20 in Magic.
That with free skill/perk picking.
Naturally, a magic hero would be able to pick them all, eventually, while a might hero would struggle to even get to Advanced level.
Now this would naturally "regulate" hero development, and although you could freely pick, there would still be some randomness (imagine a Knight wanting to get Advanced Air to be able to pick the "Mass Air Shield" perk, waiting for his eighth primary point in Magic to happen (or finding a booster, desperately looking for one)), provided primary skill points would again be assigned via probabilities, the way it was in HoMM 5, instead of in a pre-determined way like in HoMM 6.
Also, this would allow to make a difference for hero classes with mainly the same skills/perks to pick from - they could just have different prerequisites for their skills/perks, resulting in very different builds.
Lastly, this would allow easy and massive MODDING of hero classes - you could easily mod "Dark Knights" as a new hero class, and so on.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 14, 2014 12:01 PM |
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So, basically, it would prevent might heroes from getting expert magic in early and mid game, but being able to get expert in later stages. right?
It's an intersting idea...
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 14, 2014 12:12 PM |
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@JJ: Yes it is an interesting idea, but on competitive maps, fast paced players were always a winner....would this not slow one down "waiting" for the right stat/perk?
It is a step closer to having factions that can either focus on magic or might, with a skill system like H5.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2014 12:28 PM |
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It would totally depend on the level you'd set.
If you assume 35 level-ups, every level-up giving 1 primary point, a starting amount of 6 plus 10 booster points, a maxed-out hero might have 50 primary points at the end of the game. If we assume a 70:30 division Might/Magic for a Might hero (booster points being 50:50), a Might hero will have severe problems to get 20 points in Magic (without artifacts).
(Conversely, for Academy the "Attack" skill might habe requirements of 4/10/16 points of Might Attack, making it fairly difficult for them to reach the better levels.)
In other words - you could do it any which way you want, making levels/perks unavailable, late available, easily available, immediately available, always available. There might be simply ONE hurdle for all levels or different ones as in the example, the good thing is - everything would be possible.
You might even have an easy mod/switch to allow artifact stats to be considered as well.
I just want to point out a system that basically allows to incorporate each and everything you want, combining a free-pick system with some underlying randomness and a very flexible way to get different skill trees for different hero classes, without actually restricting them as in "No Knight will ever learn Fire Magic" - which, if you disregard the canonic ones like the Dark/Light rivalry, in my opinion simply SUCKS, because it's not the Paragons that write the best stories, it's the Pariahs, the Fire Witches, the Genie Barbarians, the DARK Knights and so on.
From a gaming perspective, you don't want a plan on day 1, how to develop your hero - you may have an idea, but there should be opportunities you'd have to be on the lookout for.
Like: If I have 2 Magic attack and 2 Magic defense (or Power and Knowledge booster) in my vicinity, and considering that I not just "play a map", but am a young Knight trying to claim a barony for himself or something, it would be stupid, if my Knight wasn't able to take advantage of that and try a more magic oriented approach, taking an opportunity.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2014 12:38 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
@JJ: Yes it is an interesting idea, but on competitive maps, fast paced players were always a winner....would this not slow one down "waiting" for the right stat/perk?
It is a step closer to having factions that can either focus on magic or might, with a skill system like H5.
That's why you couldn't "wait" - I mean, you have to level-up, but if you don't fulfill the prerequisites you can't pick things.
Keep in mind that this would mainly regulate the "uncommon" or "out-of-character" skills/perks for the classes. A Knight, for example, had obviously ample skills to pick from at any time: Racial, Defense, Attack, War Machines, Leadership, what do I know - Tactics, maybe, Luck, Logistics and so on, all of which regular skills for a Knight. Also, Light Magic might be effortless possible.
However, there also might be what have been the low (2%) probability skills in HoMM 5 (HoMM 3 also had a similar system) and the lower, but not so low stuff.
Instead of completely blocking things the way Elvin sketched it with Legacy, there would simply be the prerequisites. So Air Magic might be a second Magic school for a Knight POSSIBLE to get - but also difficult, you might say only in accordance with his primary development - when it seems feasible.
You might STILL HOPE to get a certain something (got the spell, would be nice to make use of it).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2014 02:17 PM |
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Soooo...
You want to have a skillwheel with each and every skill/perk available for all heroes, be it a might or a magic one. And the idea would be that they'd have to meet some primary skill prerequisites, which would make Magic heroes get might skills more difficult but not impossible, and Might heroes get magic skills more difficult also...
This seems to make sense in theory. The advantage would be that you could get any secondary skills with any hero if they have the right primary skills, rather than having restrictions.
But to be frank, I don't like it. Because there would be absolutely no difference between might heroes and magic ones at high level. The only difference would be the way in which they get there, but the end result would be the same. Well, I don't like that. I wouldn't want a Might hero to be on par with a Magic one when it comes to his spellbook. Conversely, I wouldn't want a Magic hero to have the same abilities as a Might one. Because if that happens, then why would one be called might and the other one magic? They'd be the same.
So, I agree with primary skills being a prerequisite to get secondary skills, but I don't like that leading to the same result for both might and magic heroes. I would still like to have some restrictions on magic for Might heroes and on might for Magic heroes.
And I haven't given up on my idea of having 5 mastery levels with 10 perks. But now I think about having more perks as a minimum, like maybe 15, cuz as I look at the numbers above, TotE already has 190. So naturally H7 should have more than that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2014 02:44 PM |
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No, I don't want that at all.
What I want is a system that will ALLOW everything you like.
And what I specifically want with a view on skills and abilities is an individual skill wheel for every hero class, but one with a grey area.
Clearly, for everyone there would be easy-to-get skills/perks. Also, clearly, there would be not-to-get skills/perks. Might heroes and Prime Magic might be something incompatible for everyone except the Academy might heroes.
For which Prime might still be in the grey area.
The grey area would be skills and perks for that class that were hard-to-get, some being harder, and some being less hard.
Example: Assuming, we have 7 magic schools, Dark had a value of 99 for all primaries and both hero types - not to get.
Light might have 0 on all levels for both - easy-to-get.
Air might have 3/6/9 in MAGIC for a Cleric, and 4/8/12 for a Knight. No problem for a Cleric. For a Knight, somewhat possible, but not that easy.
Water might have 4/8/12 for a Cleric and 5/10/15 for a Knight
And so on, ending with 8/16/24 for Prime and a Cleric and maybe 12/24/99 for a Knight.
This mechanic would define a grey area, you wouldn't know about whether you could plan to get a certain skill/perk and WHEN, provided primary gain was probability-based. Your chances would somewhat depend on map and locations there - the SETTING; the COUNTRY, you might say, the neighborhood -, but if you needed the higher skill levels to get the more advanced perks, you might refrain from picking stuff in the grey area and go instead for those you have full access to.
In my opinion it will be EXTREMELY difficult to come up with a skillwheel that
a) offers significantly different skill selections for each hero class and
b) a system where you can freely pick skills
that will NOT lead to all hero classes being developed the same after 3 months, with a view variations depending on opponents.
On the other hand, if it's a probability based system like in HoMM 5 there is no need to limit classes with a view on skills (wouldn't make sense anyway), but only on perks - the way it was done in HoMM 5.
Which translates to: a skill/perk system the way it was in HoMM 5 will either be very similar to that OR will allow free pick which might lead to a limitation of available skills for each hero class, which was what Elvin started to bring up Legacy for which was why I brought this here up.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2014 03:12 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
No, I don't want that at all.
What I want is a system that will ALLOW everything you like.
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And so on, ending with 8/16/24 for Prime and a Cleric and maybe 12/24/99 for a Knight.
You've just proven my point, it's exactly what I was talking about, Mastery levels with restrictions for might/magic classes.
On Prime Magic - Cleric could get Basic, Advanced and Expert; - Knight could get Basic and Advanced only.
So in the end it's the same thing, only that you're restricting it with your primary skill prerequisite. Unless you wanted to say that 99 for a knight is still in the range of "a system that will ALLOW everything". Meh...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 14, 2014 04:55 PM |
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Dude, it's EXAMPLES. When I say "allow everything" I mean that everything is possible. In effect it would EVERYTHING - it was just just a matter of changing the numbers according to what you want.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 15, 2014 10:55 AM |
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I already told my opinion on this, I would like some other people to do the same. I'm especially interested to see what Elvin has to say about it.
And btw JJ, are you perhaps an "insider" as well?
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This thread is pages long: 
