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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 08, 2014 11:32 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I repeat myself, but the RPE mod of HoMM 5 DOES THAT.
Err, the Sylvans have Summoning there. WASP SWARM - suddenly makes sense.
Anyway. Best HoMM game so far: HoMM 5 with RPE (plus associated) mods. Sans the editor, of course - but give it the HoMM 3 or 4 editor, and the game is stellar.
*Back to playing Island of Desire as Blue Dungeon Warlock*
Tell that to Ubisoft! 
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 09, 2014 07:10 AM |
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Avirosb said:
Is magic types really touched upon that much in the lore?
I thought they were mainly a game mechanic.
Agree here. It is more the element (fire, water, etc.) that is touched on than the magic school in lore...
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mwll-Vlaad
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 10, 2014 02:39 PM |
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Reading through all that's said in this topic was a bit challenging in terms of quantity of written text. I really did enjoy some stuff mainly what Elvin said. Though I am a bit late for the discussion ill give it a go though my opinions are really in line with Heroes 6 sucks.
first off, I'm an old fan of classic homm starting with 2 and I am a fan of changes so I did appreciate effort that homm4 brought and I really did like the game.
@OP Fraction suggestions are awesome, I would love to see them appear in future heroes installment. All said H7 will either be a huge success or a horrid failure that will seal homm franchise so well that even fluorescent glowing teenage emo necromancer will not be able to resurect it.
Previous conclusionis based on a fact that IP holder company had 2 heroes installments to get it right. Of two before mentioned depending on opinions some hit the mark closer than other but since it is a huge discussion ill leave it for another thread.
Regarding sub fractions I think that they are nice and would add a lot in gameplay sense. There is a bit of problem however:
1. Complexity: for a franchise to live it needs to be attractive to new blood. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see it but problem mostly lies in today's audiences: (please excuse my cruelty here) spoiled, immature and ungrateful people 80% of who can (it theory) craft a better game than company and as a result turning forums into a viper pit. Reading ubi-forums sums it up for me. I remember the time when people HAD to think hard and invent new approaches to solve issues and in most cases resulted in great sense of satisfaction. Baldurs Gate, HOMM2 and so on were prime examples that would make gamers of today cry tears of blood especially when one would deny them internet access so they have to solve problem that developer put in front of them without using power of google.
2. Costly: H5 and H6 use 3d models. Pipeline for those is something like this: Concept --> Aproval --> sculpting/modeling (high and lowpoly) --> baking down normals --> texturing --> Rigging --> animation --> Implementation for each of models used in game. Rather complex process compared to that of a world filled with animated sprites. Of course, there are time saving methods for existing models but entire process has rather high cost to profit ratio.
More real way, imho, is to utilize mechanics that is tried and tested. h3 WOG did the right thing with unit XP. After reading general opinion of it on this thread I know it sounds bad but it can be made to work: Lets say that future heroes will keep reputation from H6 hero recruits base unit but in order to unlock specific ability and the hero can upgrade unit to access another ability based on his reputation. For example ill take "vanilla griffin" and for the sake of simplicity Lets say that unit can have 5 levels max before attaining maximum. Hero fights and in time upgrades his castle dwelling and now can recruit "royal griffin". Now royal griffin gains XP and unlocks lets say at level 1-3 either more morale/luck or attack/defense or hp (something along those lines). Level 4 it gains dive attack. Level 5 it gains ability to be upgraded by hero who has a reputation: "blood griffin" or "tears griffin" (generic is it not?). Model and animations are the same texture can be slightly different. Just an idea that occurred to me from hour or so from reading this thread.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 10, 2014 04:19 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 16:19, 10 Jan 2014.
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Welcome Vlaad, thanks for taking the time to go through the thread  I think the real concern is whether H7 will be an actually good game or a so-so one, to pass the time and move on. And making a good heroes is (for me) a matter of getting the base mechanics right, covering the essential features/content and designing the game in a way that you can easily improve or add to it. If the mechanics are unclear or in contrast with each other, things will get messy in the future. If there are less than 6 factions or we lack sim turns/RMG there won't be much replayability. If the game is not easy to update we'll get the H5-6 situation all over again, with each patch introducing new bugs and patches getting less and less frequent.
Of course, just those might not be enough to make the game widely appealing. Royal fans might love it, newer ones might put it on the shelf after a while. And besides, heroes could use a bigger fanbase. The more people that contribute to multiplayer, mapmaking, modding, posting - the better. That requires a little innovation, to draw people in. For instance.. I used to hate the very notion of simultaneous turns but now I just can't play multiplayer without it. If you can't finish the game in one sitting the magic is lost or you may have trouble scheduling the next time you play with that particular opponent. Plus.. who wants to wait his opponent's turn? That works in hotseat or lan where your friends are in proximity but less so with an online opponent. A developer must be willing to review what works and what not with today's standards.
Regarding your idea, I am more in favour of the abilities being tied to the heroes rather than the units. Each unit needs some abilities to feel distinctive and fun to play(I liked how H5 made all units feel special) but on the other hand I feel that H6 went overboard. It was fun but I'm not sure it was really needed. Instead of a ton of generic abilities I'd prefer fewer and more distinctive ones. If it was possible to have a deep skill system AND a wealth of unit abilities I wouldn't mind but will we get that kind of budget? I'd rather see a might hero with several playable builds - each making your army play very differently - than a might hero with more or less the same build but more unit abilities and combos. I find hero building more important for the series than increasing the role of the units. In fact, I would like adventure skills to be just as important as combat skills. To make the adventure map more interesting and interactive.
PS, it would be awesome if unit specialists worked in a similar way to your proposal. To have let's say 3-4 stages of improvement for your favourite unit, something like the H5 bloodrage. For instance the orc slayer would get +1 Speed/+2 Attack at lvl 1, +10 Hit Points at lvl 2 and Double Attack at lvl 3. A bit of an extreme example but you get the idea.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 10, 2014 04:26 PM |
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Elvin said:
PS, it would be awesome if unit specialists worked in a similar way to your proposal. To have let's say 3-4 stages of improvement for your favourite unit, something like the H5 bloodrage. For instance the orc slayer would get +1 Speed/+2 Attack at lvl 1, +10 Hit Points at lvl 2 and Double Attack at lvl 3. A bit of an extreme example but you get the idea.
Not only units, all heroes specialities (spells, skills, etc...). Something like:
Level 1: first bonus
Level 5: second bonus
Level 10: third bonus
Level 15: fourth bonus
And so on. It would be easier to both balance all heroes specialities and make all heroes appealing, imo.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2014 05:27 PM |
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I kinda agree with Elvin that in H6 creatures had to many generic abilities while Might heroes lacked variety. What if Might skills/perks could actually give creatures abilities? Like you could have a skill perk which gives all of your tanky creatures Enraged.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2014 05:45 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:46, 10 Jan 2014.
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xerox said:
I kinda agree with Elvin that in H6 creatures had to many generic abilities while Might heroes lacked variety. What if Might skills/perks could actually give creatures abilities? Like you could have a skill perk which gives all of your tanky creatures Enraged.
Brilliant, I totally agree with this. Likewise you could have Magic heroes with perks and abilities for caster/magic oriented creatures (like ghost, lich and maybe even spinner from necro). Let's not have the same boring creatures over and over and over again, give the player the means to improve them a bit. Be it through the hero acquiring new levels and skills or devising a creature skill system (as I had proposed some posts back), I don't care. I want a much more deep game than what Ubi delivered so far. They could learn a lot from WoG.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2014 05:54 PM |
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Yeah, it could also be a great away to add more diversity between the factions. Because obviously not all factions would have a skill perk that improves Vampires or Archmagi.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 10, 2014 06:29 PM |
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xerox said:
What if Might skills/perks could actually give creatures abilities? Like you could have a skill perk which gives all of your tanky creatures Enraged.
Wasn't this propposed some pages back?
For some reason, my mind tells me that JJ spoke about giving abilities to creatures through hero skills/perks
(Potentially is a great idea )
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 10, 2014 07:54 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 20:17, 10 Jan 2014.
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Some of you must be familiar with Might & Magic X: Legacy(aka MMX), the upcoming old-school rpg.
It is a stand-alone story, but it is integrated within the overall continuity of the world of Ashan and is bound by the same rules and lore. Let me give you some info on the faction classes.
There will be four races: Humans, dwarves, elves and orcs. Each race will have 3 classes, one might, one magic and one hybrid.
HUMANS
Humans are said to be dynamic, but short-lived compared to the other races. They have a strong connection to Air and Light.
(I am pretty sure that they get less free starting skills atm )
MIGHT: Mercenary
The Mercenary is a powerful fighter who specializes in being unspecialized - so whatever melee weapon you assign to them they will be able to wield it with a master's skill, together with a shield, dual wielding their favorite weapons or even using two handed models. Like the Dwarven Defender, the Mercanary can become grand master of warfare, but different than Defenders, Mercenaries will most likely focus on the offensive aspects of that skill. Being followers of Ylath, every Mercenary can develop basic powers in the Magic School of Air.
Mercenary Skill Distribution
The Advanced Class of the Mercenary: Windsword
Adventurers who have proven both their value and valour in combat can join the elite mercenary companies known as the Windswords. Under the tutelage of Ylath, the Dragon of Air, they take a solemn vow and become honor bound to their chosen companions in war and fortune, never turning their back on them.
The Windsword¢s passive Ability: Perfect Strike
When the Windsword performs a melee attack against an enemy who is at full health, the first strike cannot be blocked or evaded and is always a critical hit.
Kieran(Cate's brother) and Vein are known Windswords.
MAGIC: Freemage
The Freemage¢s business is magic of any kind. She has no clue about weapons, but she knows how to cast a mighty fireball or a devastating thunderstorm. In fact, she can become quite excellent with Fire and Air. But basically she is familiar with all schools of magic. The Freemage uses artifacts in order to channel the magic forces and enhance her magic dimensions.
I am somewhat surprised that a freemage would have grandmaster prime but not air, given that humans are the children of Ylath.
The Advanced Class of the Freemage: Archmage
The Archmage receives the spell Time Stop:
The Freemage freezes time outside a sphere created around the party for some turns or until the party exits the sphere. The enemies outside can't be attacked, nor attack or move.
The hybrid class is crusader, a warrior-priest. The MMX blog has yet to reveal it, to be updated
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 10, 2014 07:56 PM |
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One pic is way too big Elvin!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 10, 2014 08:11 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 20:19, 10 Jan 2014.
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ORCS!
(There used to be a demon slayer ability but it was removed since demons are no longer in the game.)
MIGHT: Barbarian
The Barbarian deals the most melee damage with melee weapons, and favors using two-handed weapons or two weapons at once. Therefore he prefers the mace or axe. But his life is rather low, he is not particularly good at evading, and to make things even worse, he has no idea of how to use a shield. Anyway, he¢s capable of redirecting damage.
The Advanced Class of the Barbarian, the Warmonger receives the ability Blood Rage: The Warmonger deals more damage as his Health decreases.
MAGIC: Shaman
Orc Shamans are a strange breed. They act as mediums between the material world and the spirit world, which they refer to as the “Dream World”. To enter this realm, they undergo deep trance rituals, the nature of which is specific to each Shaman. From their journeys into the “Dream World”, the Shamans bring insights that help them draw magical powers from their own demon blood.
Being Orcs, Shamans have raised resistances and above-average Health. Due to their savage nature Shamans do not need to rely on their magic alone - it¢s mainly up to their individual taste whether they specialize in the utilization of magical foci, or complement their arcane skills with martial power by wielding spears or clubs. Shamans can control the four magic schools of fire, water, air and earth while excelling the latter three. Shamans are the only class that can reach the Grand Master Rank of the Arcane Discipline Skill making them the most magic resistant class in the game.
The advanced class of the Shaman: The blood Caller is a Shaman that uses bloodletting rituals to amplify his magical powers and conjure the more devastating spells. He is justly feared by even their Orc brethren, because his magic has a cost that can lead them, or their co-ritualists to succumb to Chaos, or death...
Passive ability Blood Magic: The Blood Caller restores Mana for Health lost due to enemy attacks.
HYBRID: Hunter
Hunters are well-known for their fierceness, their resistance and their endurance. And hell, they know how to handle that spear!
Instead of other Orcs, the Hunter¢s diet is actually based heavily on the principle of you caught it, you cook it. Hunting provides the bulk of their diet. Orc Hunters, as all other Orcs, are also fierce warriors, capable of surviving on their own in the wild for weeks, or even years.
The Advanced Class of the Hunter: Marauder.
When Orc Hunters start bringing back more than just meat from their hunting trips, trifles such as jewels, gold, swords and captives, they are given a new title that honors their new status. They are called Marauders, and the best amongst them become heroes of legend, because of the spectacular stories they are able to tell upon their return.
The Marauder¢s active ability: Crippling Trap
Marauders are nifty trappers. They can place a crippling trap on the party¢s current tile that deals a substantial amount of damage to all monsters who enter that tile.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2014 08:13 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
xerox said:
What if Might skills/perks could actually give creatures abilities? Like you could have a skill perk which gives all of your tanky creatures Enraged.
Wasn't this propposed some pages back?
For some reason, my mind tells me that JJ spoke about giving abilities to creatures through hero skills/perks
(Potentially is a great idea )
Well, YES. The main thing is that creatures are creatures ONLY. It's fine if high level - that is SPECIAL - creatures have special abilities that may make a difference, but there's a fine line between activating creature abilities like mad and having to decide which active HERO ability (includes spells) to use TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
So rule of thumb would be: Champions may have ACTIVE (and passive) abilities. Elites may have passive abilities and the ODD active one; Cores may have passive abilities - or none at all: a good unit is a good unit.
For example, the Assassin unit is pretty tough in both V and VI. The basic unit may have no special ability whatsoever, except that it is a very strong core unit. Upgrade may get Poisoning passive ability. Period.
Invisibility as an ACTIVE unit ability? Bad idea, because now it's the UNIT that allows the HERO to do things, not the other way round.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 10, 2014 08:31 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
So rule of thumb would be: Champions may have ACTIVE (and passive) abilities. Elites may have passive abilities and the ODD active one; Cores may have passive abilities - or none at all: a good unit is a good unit.
This setup sounds solid to me, very solid. It would allow to see a good evolution in your army: first you start with some basic units, then you get Elite creatures that have cool abilities, and when you get to champion level they are amazing...as you would expect from the highest tier
I really hope Ubi listen to your (VIPs) ideas...or you convice them, one way or another
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 11, 2014 04:22 AM |
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That's why I always like to compare the battlefield to chess. Pawns are pawns and can only move in certain direction, the "elites" (horses, castles, etc) can move in special way, and champions can move anyhow. Similar to what the core, elite and champion creatures of heroes should be. This core, elite structure was a good one introduced by H6 and should continue in the series.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 11, 2014 01:12 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 13:17, 11 Jan 2014.
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I don't agree. I thought a lot of creatures in H3, who had like no abilities except dull ones ("Hates Genies"), were incredibly boring. If creatures become more dependent on heroes that could also risk more hero abilities and spells being shohorned in to support them. I also really like factions were creatures have a strong synergy between them, like Sanctuary in H6. That could get undemrined if they became more dependent on heroes instead.
I really like that the M&MX humans are from the Free Cities. What Free Cities are there anyway?
I know only of Stonehelm and Karthal (which I still think was supposed to be a Naga city in H5)
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 11, 2014 01:30 PM |
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I think H5 had a decent amount of abilities, offering plenty of options. With that amount of abilities and some planning I believe that we could achieve such synergy. And yes, I consider synergy an important part of faction gameplay - save for factions like necro and inferno that are not into teamwork.
I'm afraid I don't know much about the free cities
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 11, 2014 01:36 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
That's why I always like to compare the battlefield to chess. Pawns are pawns and can only move in certain direction, the "elites" (horses, castles, etc) can move in special way, and champions can move anyhow. Similar to what the core, elite and champion creatures of heroes should be. This core, elite structure was a good one introduced by H6 and should continue in the series.
Well said.
xerox said:
I really like that the M&MX humans are from the Free Cities. What Free Cities are there anyway?
I know only of Stonehelm and Karthal (which I still think was supposed to be a Naga city in H5)
Which was the name of the City where M&M Raiders was supposed to happen? I forgot
Edit: Hammerfall, my mind remembered it just when I clicked on submit button
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 11, 2014 02:02 PM |
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Yo Elvin, liches have raise dead in H5... just sayin'
@ Xerox: Well, I don't like pawns that my hero should Bless to make them useful. There should be some uniqueness when it comes to creatures too, and in that respect I think that H5 made a pretty good job. Not going overboard like H6, but having 1-2 creatures with active abilities, 1 caster and lots of passives was the right way in which this game should have had developed more.
I'm sayin', If H5 had some creature leveling system, or any other abilities/stats/spells acquiring systems, it would've been above WoG to me. Not 10 levels like how WoG system has, but a 3 level system? Or some talents or SOMETING! Maybe something like Orcs rage, I dunno, but something to make your creatures better. And it wouldn't shadow the Heroes role at all (if you think it would JJ, I know you don't agree with this), it could actually open a whole new world of synergy between hero perks and spells with such creatures.
@ DD: I'm not really a fan of that system, to me it seems that it took away some of the uniqueness that the creatures had. But I don't really think it's such a big deal anyway, so Imma just go with it.
And I fail to see the connection between the potential direction of H7 with MMX What does that have to do with anything?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 11, 2014 02:11 PM |
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Stevie said:
And I fail to see the connection between the potential direction of H7 with MMX What does that have to do with anything?
Lore? What magic schools each faction could be linked to?
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This thread is pages long: 
