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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 01:00 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:01, 26 Jan 2015.
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Avirosb said:
(I'm not actually mad, just apathetic. I don't see that change anytime soon as long as Ashan remains a thing)
So how about being more vocal and serious about it? Being apathetic won't change anything.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2015 01:06 PM |
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No problem.
I meant the HoMM 5 Wraith, not the HoMM 3 one.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 31, 2015 01:16 PM |
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Since we have a thread dedicated to Necropolis, I'll asnwer Stevie here.
As I said already, Wikia does not proof anything at all. I can go there right now and change that statement.
What happened with Ornella is either transformation into a Lich first (just my theory, based on Arantir's religiousness) or the Spider Kiss. There're simply no other options. In both cases she needs not actual Namtaru present, but her venom. And she could have drink it off-scene (remember, camera wasn't always on her, but mostly on Arantir?)
Now, I'm sometimes really curious why you read the information only in the way that's useful for you. At least it seems to me so. Ofc transformation to the Lich requires Namtaru's bite - through the bite they get poison (it doesn't mean that Namtaru must actually bite them, although this might happen). Nothing wrong here as well. Or the ceremony was changed in Arantir's time from elixir to bite. Also that text doesn't say ALL Namtarus dwell in Nar-Heresh, otherwise please show me the word "all".
About capitals. Nar-Ankar is official capitol of the Necromancers at least in Arantir's time and on the map of Ashan it's icon is bigger than Nar-Heresh's. But.
Back in time when Necro where with Wizards in one state, their capitol was Al-Betyl - the city where they originated. But Nar-Heresh was that city from H6 where they hid Mother Namtaru. Guess which one of them is more important. When they were purged from Seven Cities, they (citation from Compendium) they declare their independance, using the city of Nar-Heresh as their base of operations to plan their revenge. And in Heroes Online we also travel to Nar-Heresh. And in Dark Messiah too.
I hope I made everything clear and you don't have any further questions, because you trying to find illusonary retcons/inconsistencies etc is kinda annoying already.
@Zombi_Wizard, it seems that Vampires aren't "infectious". Vein drank Zakera's blood and she didn't become Vampire, Ludmilla was bitten several times.
Regarding stake through the heart - nope, it won't immediately kill a Vampire. And they do have a reflection in a mirror 
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 02:28 PM |
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What about the sun ... does the sun hurt them? I mean obviously you fight with Vampires on sunny battlefield, but lorewise? cross probably dosen't work, and neither does blessed watter, since these are from cristian sources, and in Ashan well ... they worship Dragons. However garlic?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 31, 2015 02:38 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
What about the sun ... does the sun hurt them? I mean obviously you fight with Vampires on sunny battlefield, but lorewise? cross probably dosen't work, and neither does blessed watter, since these are from cristian sources, and in Ashan well ... they worship Dragons. However garlic?
According to the Compendium, page 127, none of the stock-vampire stuff works on Ashan Vampires. Not Sunlight; Not Crosses; Not Holywater; Not Garlic; No Wooden Stakes; no Silver Weapons, not more than any other; They can see themselves in the mirror and they cannot turn themselves into bats.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 02:41 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:45, 31 Jan 2015.
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Okay, even though the Wiki is a perfectly legitimate source of info, I will stick to in-game lore for the sake of our discussion.
Sandro400 said:
What happened with Ornella is either transformation into a Lich first (just my theory, based on Arantir's religiousness) or the Spider Kiss. There're simply no other options. In both cases she needs not actual Namtaru present, but her venom. And she could have drink it off-scene (remember, camera wasn't always on her, but mostly on Arantir?)
Transformation into a Lich does not follow from the game lore. She undoubtedly underwent the Kiss of the Spider Goddess ritual. What I am saying is that the ritual as seen in the cutscene is not the same with the Spider Kiss ritual in Heroes 6, because Namtaru venom was not involved in the slightest. All the instructions she was given were these words from Arantir: "Take your place at the center of Asha's Web. Stand alone there, and soon you shall join our endless host." Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that you think "she could have drink it off-scene" is speculation that does not follow, and speculation is not a valid argument.
Sandro400 said:
Now, I'm sometimes really curious why you read the information only in the way that's useful for you. At least it seems to me so. Ofc transformation to the Lich requires Namtaru's bite - through the bite they get poison (it doesn't mean that Namtaru must actually bite them, although this might happen). Nothing wrong here as well. Or the ceremony was changed in Arantir's time from elixir to bite. Also that text doesn't say ALL Namtarus dwell in Nar-Heresh, otherwise please show me the word "all".
Yes, okay, an elixir with Namtaru venom. But there is none presented in the ritual. Furthermore, Arantir does not say anything about it when he gives his instructions. And then about the Namtaru:
Little is known of this rite of passage to outsiders, as it involves the bite of the sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs deep beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh.
"The sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh" - if from that you understand that there are Namtaru outside Nar-Heresh, then you have a problem comprehending English.
Sandro400 said:
About capitals. Nar-Ankar is official capitol of the Necromancers at least in Arantir's time and on the map of Ashan it's icon is bigger than Nar-Heresh's. But.
Back in time when Necro where with Wizards in one state, their capitol was Al-Betyl - the city where they originated. But Nar-Heresh was that city from H6 where they hid Mother Namtaru. Guess which one of them is more important. When they were purged from Seven Cities, they (citation from Compendium) they declare their independance, using the city of Nar-Heresh as their base of operations to plan their revenge. And in Heroes Online we also travel to Nar-Heresh. And in Dark Messiah too.
Erwan and Jeff said the capital was Nar-Heresh. In the game the capital is actually Nar-Ankar. Contradiction. Here's the map of Thallan - Link. Heresh - Nar-Ankar. You're "base of operation" argument is irrelevant, what I'm asking is why in one place it says that the capital is Nar-Heresh and in the other we see that the capital is Nar-Ankar.
Sandro400 said:
I hope I made everything clear and you don't have any further questions, because you trying to find illusonary retcons/inconsistencies etc is kinda annoying already.
And I hope you drop the act cuz it's kinda annoying too. No one forced you to reopen the topic here, you did so out of your own volition. If I'm annoying you, then don't engage me in a conversation, lol.
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 02:57 PM |
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About sunlight and vampires. Although seen as a classic vampire weakness, it was actually introduced in the movie Nosferatu in 1923. In folklore vampires were active at night, same thing in Dracula, where he is shown to be weakened by sunlight, but not burning or dying because of it.
We have light and holy things affecting vampires through Light Magic. So we get at least something 
A fun fact about stakes. A stake would effective only against a sleeping vampire, unless you have the strength and accuracy to get it through the ribcage and straight to the heart. Well you have creatures/characters in Ahsan who would be capable of doing that, but they probably have a lot more efective weapons to use when dealing with vampires... so stakes would be rather irrevelant
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 31, 2015 03:32 PM |
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War-overlord said:
they cannot turn themselves into bats.
BOO!
BOO i say! 
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 31, 2015 03:40 PM |
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Sorts said:
A fun fact about stakes. A stake would effective only against a sleeping vampire, unless you have the strength and accuracy to get it through the ribcage and straight to the heart. Well you have creatures/characters in Ahsan who would be capable of doing that, but they probably have a lot more efective weapons to use when dealing with vampires... so stakes would be rather irrevelant
The stake comes from Romanian mythology, where a strigoi is linked to its corpse and by nailing a stake through the cadaver's heart it's believed that you pin the strigoi to the coffin so it can't get out anymore to harm people or livestock. So a stake is more like "imprisoning" the spirit than killing it, of course the ritual is much more complex, the corpse must be exhumed while a priests is chanting specific prayers and the living relatives of the deceased have to drink the corpse's ashes (often the heart is taken out and burnt)
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 31, 2015 04:08 PM |
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Stevie said:
Transformation into a Lich does not follow from the game lore. She undoubtedly underwent the Kiss of the Spider Goddess ritual. What I am saying is that the ritual as seen in the cutscene is not the same with the Spider Kiss ritual in Heroes 6, because Namtaru venom was not involved in the slightest. All the instructions she was given were these words from Arantir: "Take your place at the center of Asha's Web. Stand alone there, and soon you shall join our endless host." Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that you think "she could have drink it off-scene" is speculation that does not follow, and speculation is not a valid argument.
Ok, we have the same ritual in H6, where Anastasya just hugged Mother Namtaru - but from her recent bio we know for sure that he drank the venom. How many inaccurate cutscenes should I present to you for you to understand that they are inaccurate? Or ok, remember the cutscene from TotE where Zehir gives some artifect to Orcs? In which moment of that cutscene the Orcs actually took the artifact? That artefact doesn't even appear on screen.
Stevie said:
"The sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh" - if from that you understand that there are Namtaru outside Nar-Heresh, then you have a problem comprehending English.
Oh, really? It seems quite the opposite.
Humans live in the Holy Empire. Tell me, Stevie, do Humans live only in the Holy Empire? Oh, but remembering your linguistic debate with WO I'm certain you'll answer "there're no humans outside Holy Empire". Am I right?
Stevie said:
Erwan and Jeff said the capital was Nar-Heresh. In the game the capital is actually Nar-Ankar. Contradiction. Here's the map of Thallan - Link. Heresh - Nar-Ankar. You're "base of operation" argument is irrelevant, what I'm asking is why in one place it says that the capital is Nar-Heresh and in the other we see that the capital is Nar-Ankar.
Did it ever occured to you that capitals may change? Or that a country can have more than one capital?
Stevie said:
And I hope you drop the act cuz it's kinda annoying too. No one forced you to reopen the topic here, you did so out of your own volition. If I'm annoying you, then don't engage me in a conversation, lol.
What act? Lol. I junt can't ignore the amount of misinformation in your posts. Its overwhelming. But I see now that I won't prove anything to you - it's mission impossible, too bad I'm the last to understand this.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 05:52 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:45, 31 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Stevie said:
What I am saying is that the ritual as seen in the cutscene is not the same with the Spider Kiss ritual in Heroes 6, because Namtaru venom was not involved in the slightest.
Ok, we have the same ritual in H6
Circular reasoning at its finest, you just assumed the very point I'm asking you to prove. The fact that the name is similar is insufficient, as it is conceivable that the two rituals can have similar names but still be different, which is what the lore from Ornella's transformation into a vampire even suggests.
And about Zehir, here's the cutscene in question Link. There's a minor big difference between Kunyak's Staff in that scene and the case of Ornella, the staff is mentioned, Namtaru venom is not. Stay with me on this one, Kunyak's Staff = mentioned = lore; Namtaru Venom = not mentioned = not lore; Let me even draw it for you:
Kunyak's Staff --- Not Seen --- Mentioned === Lore
Namtaru Venom --- Not Seen --- Not Mentioned === Not Lore
As I said, there was even a reason more to mention it if it was needed. But the ONLY thing Arantir asked Ornella to do was "Take your place at the center of Asha's Web. Stand alone there, and soon you shall join our endless host."
Sandro400 said:
Stevie said:
"The sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh" - if from that you understand that there are Namtaru outside Nar-Heresh, then you have a problem comprehending English.
Oh, really? It seems quite the opposite.
Humans live in the Holy Empire. Tell me, Stevie, do Humans live only in the Holy Empire? Oh, but remembering your linguistic debate with WO I'm certain you'll answer "there're no humans outside Holy Empire". Am I right?
False analogy. You omit the determinants which are crucial.
This would be an accurate analogy:
"The sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh"
"The <adjective phrase> humans, the <noun phrase>, who dwell in the <noun phrase> beneath the Holy Empire.
There are two main differences between that and just stating "humans live in the Holy Empire":
1. the determiner "the" which is a definite determiner of the noun "humans" that has the role to categorize a group, meaning ALL the elements of that group are subjected to the verb (universal affirmative in logic).
2. the determiner "the <noun phrase>" which is a determiner phrase in the vocative case that determines "humans" which partly acts as an emphasis tool and categorizes a group.
In words that you understand, there is a difference between "the humans" and just "humans", like there is between "the spiders" and just "spiders" and between "the Namtaru" and just "Namtaru".
Btw, what you and WO might not know is that I've been studying English for more than 10 years and now I'm in my second year of university studies with English as my minor. Doesn't mean I can't be wrong, just that I have some experience.
Sandro400 said:
Stevie said:
Erwan and Jeff said the capital was Nar-Heresh. In the game the capital is actually Nar-Ankar. Contradiction. Here's the map of Thallan - Link. Heresh - Nar-Ankar. You're "base of operation" argument is irrelevant, what I'm asking is why in one place it says that the capital is Nar-Heresh and in the other we see that the capital is Nar-Ankar.
Did it ever occured to you that capitals may change? Or that a country can have more than one capital?
It certainly did. But is there any confirmation in that direction? Or are we to just speculate?
Sandro400 said:
Stevie said:
And I hope you drop the act cuz it's kinda annoying too. No one forced you to reopen the topic here, you did so out of your own volition. If I'm annoying you, then don't engage me in a conversation, lol.
What act? Lol. I junt can't ignore the amount of misinformation in your posts. Its overwhelming. But I see now that I won't prove anything to you - it's mission impossible, too bad I'm the last to understand this.
You haven't proven a thing lol, you just come up with scenarios based on speculation. Your reasoning is full of mental gymnastics and perception flaws.
Seriously, if you just want to drop it, then let's drop it. It doesn't help us at all, it's just ruining our friendship. I already gave 2 sh!ts too many with my first post trying to reason Ashan.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 31, 2015 06:50 PM |
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Stevie said:
Seriously, if you just want to drop it, then let's drop it. It doesn't help us at all, it's just ruining our friendship. I already gave 2 sh!ts too many with my first post trying to reason Ashan.
Let's, because, as I said, proving gameplay and story segregation is impossible to you and your arguments are not convincing for me. I have only two things left for me to say: 1) those spider-Namtaru from DM may be dwelling only in Nar-Heresh, but there're other kinds of Namtaru (in H6 and HO they certainly dwell on ther places). 2) isn't the fact that we had different capitals in different timeframes enough proof that the're capital change/double capitals? We had precedent in H6 (Al-Betyl and Nar-Heresh).
P.S.: I'm happy that you studied English for more than 10 years, but it seems that you're too close-to-book in your approach.
P.P.S.: Are we friends?  
Now, all this talk with Stevie actually gave me one thought. What if Namtaru are really extinct during H5 era or veeery rare and the Namtaru Spiders of Nar-Heresh are those Death Spiders from H7? That might explain a lot.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 06:53 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
P.P.S.: Are we friends?
Of course we are!  Even friends argue but they're still friends!
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted January 31, 2015 06:55 PM |
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Omg...is it over?
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 07:02 PM |
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That kind of behavior is why you arent worthy of not being treated condescendingly
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 31, 2015 07:17 PM |
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Stevie said:
Of course we are! Even friends argue but they're still friends!
I'm honestly surprised. I just discovered that I have a friend I had no clue about. Today a wonderful day ^_^
Now, what do you guys think Necro campaign will be about? Will we see Sandro?
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Heligrin
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 31, 2015 07:40 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Now, what do you guys think Necro campaign will be about? Will we see Sandro?
Who knows? Great Netherlord always conceals himself in the Void, trying to accomplish his devious plans. He can as well be the cause of Belketh's death and necromancers' defeat.
Although this is just my assumption, I hope for the future add-on, where we'll be told about siege of Lorekeep and what Zakera's role was in Sandro's defeat (yes, I strongly believe it was her, who helped Cyrus).
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 31, 2015 08:58 PM |
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Stevie said:
Sandro400 said:
Stevie said:
"The sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh" - if from that you understand that there are Namtaru outside Nar-Heresh, then you have a problem comprehending English.
Oh, really? It seems quite the opposite.
Humans live in the Holy Empire. Tell me, Stevie, do Humans live only in the Holy Empire? Oh, but remembering your linguistic debate with WO I'm certain you'll answer "there're no humans outside Holy Empire". Am I right?
False analogy. You omit the determinants which are crucial.
This would be an accurate analogy:
"The sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh"
"The <adjective phrase> humans, the <noun phrase>, who dwell in the <noun phrase> beneath the Holy Empire.
There are two main differences between that and just stating "humans live in the Holy Empire":
1. the determiner "the" which is a definite determiner of the noun "humans" that has the role to categorize a group, meaning ALL the elements of that group are subjected to the verb (universal affirmative in logic).
2. the determiner "the <noun phrase>" which is a determiner phrase in the vocative case that determines "humans" which partly acts as an emphasis tool and categorizes a group.
In words that you understand, there is a difference between "the humans" and just "humans", like there is between "the spiders" and just "spiders" and between "the Namtaru" and just "Namtaru".
:linguisticbombisthrown: I'm not siding with anybody, just curious 'cause of the language...
If 'the' means 'all' you have a problematic sentence:
Little is known of this rite of passage to outsiders, as it involves the bite of allthe sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs deep beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh.
Context here is very important! (In fact when the context in not important!?) It is (Ashan's) common sense that you actually need a bite of a single spider, right? Or at least a bite of several spiders, but definitely not from ALL spiders. If the author wanted to say All he could have wrote: ALL spiders or ALL THE spiders. 'The' is just used here as a plural marker: THE sacred spiderS. THE in 'the Namtaru' might be used for specific/unique reference, but it is possibility that it is an error, since names aren't used with articles. But the context can change things, of course.
Stevie is right about the humans living in the empire. However, it is the same whether one uses THE or ZERO article:
1) The humans live in the Holy Empire.
2) Humans live in the Holy Empire.
Both examples identify an entire class of referents who live there. Let's make it clear with better example:
1) The tiger is a dangerous animal.
2) A tiger is a dangerous animal.
3) Tigers are dangerous animals
-->All three sentences mean the following: Tigers as a class are dangerous animals.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 31, 2015 09:14 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:52, 31 Jan 2015.
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Little is known of this rite of passage to outsiders, as it involves the bite of the sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs deep beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh.
He is right about the context indicating this is something unique to that place but wrong about the the.
Quote:
1. the determiner "the" which is a definite determiner of the noun "humans" that has the role to categorize a group, meaning ALL the elements of that group are subjected to the verb (universal affirmative in logic).
This is where he's wrong, the only indicates you are talking about something specific, not necessarily ALL the elements of a group. "The merchants who lived in the Holy Empire paid a tax to the emperor" doesnt mean all merchants existing paid a tax to him, on the contrary, it means the specified merchants paid tax to him.
So, Sandro is correct to suggest "the X lived in Y" doesnt necessarily mean "all X lived in Y" in general, but Stevie's interpretation of that specific sentence is the one that makes sense because the sentence says little is known and gives you the reason as the location.
On the other hand, if I say something like "the neighbours in my building (or the people who live in my building) started to complain about loud music" you can not conclude that all of them do that just because of the article.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 31, 2015 11:16 PM |
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@artu
Explaining things better than I did. 
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This thread is pages long: 
