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PyroStock
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 27, 2014 07:53 PM |
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Pony is a simple name too, but it's not a champion name. Sword bearer sounds like someone who hopes to someday be a squire. However, perhaps they deliberately named it bad to get people talking about the game & will change it later? Same with magic bird. Perhaps Necropolis will have a champion named vampire... simple name and there are lots of myth/legends on various great vampire powers (self-resurrection, hypnotism, super strength, shape-change, creating more vampires, etc). And that might be ok... or... they can aim bigger and for something more awe-inspiring.
The whole swordbearer = Hercules (demi-god) thing fails because, aside from the bad generic name, you can hire more swordbearers every week. The Hercules epics would be far different if every battle involved the same mage/hero telling him where to go, who to fight and/or have that mage/hero help him in every battle, including some where Hercules just sat back while the mage/hero did all the killing or some other creatures did. If anything Hercules would be a Hero in Heroes of M&M who could get armies to follow him and like H5 do powerful/lethal attack blows in battle. Hero is appropriate for Hercules and other mythical heroes... swordbearers are troops who play a part in an army.
As mentioned earlier, if all the towns are stuck with a lackluster "champion" (swordbearer, magic bird, mystic fox, etc) and a real larger-than-life champion (Angel, Dragon, Behemoth, Titan, etc) then it's fine. The developers will do what they will do, but don't pretend size doesn't matter. 
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted August 27, 2014 07:54 PM |
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Wellplay said:
War-overlord said:
PhoenixMK said:
Consumers are always in second place for Ubisoft. Do not give up, there's still hope for us and our criticism 
I've never said that the people at Limbic did not care. If we wish to affect change, it is likely better to adress them.
However, criticizing the Swordbearer for having a bad name is simply doing nothing more than stating the obvious. Especially since we've since been told that the names are working names and are likely to change.
However criticizing the Swordbearer for not being fit as a champion-creature is simultaniously premature and out of date.
It's premature since we do not know in the slightest how it will play or compare against the Angel.
And it is out of date, because the discision of making it a champion-creature has already been taken. Making it exceptionally unlikely to be changed because of our "whingeing" about it. And the soonest that MIGHT have any effect is Heroes VIII, if there will ever be one.
wise words 
Wise words even if i said exactly the same some days ago. The discussion about that name become very futile and sterile....
flonembourg said:
Furthermore we know absolutely nothing about the skilltree and maybe there will be bonuses for swordbearer (and only swordbearer).
So all we can do is hating swordbearer while we know nothing of what was planned by limbic
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PyroStock
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 27, 2014 08:39 PM |
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War-overlord said:
However criticizing the Swordbearer for not being fit as a champion-creature is simultaniously premature and out of date.
It's premature since we do not know in the slightest how it will play or compare against the Angel.
It's not premature since the quality of the stats & skills of the creature isn't the problem. Likewise, they could have a mystic fox for Sylvan or vampire for Necropolis or even a small dot (wisp) for some new town. That doesn't mean those creatures are great fits as a champion for that town given the history of Heroes & general myth/legend regardless of their stats & play.
Quote:
And it is out of date, because the discision of making it a champion-creature has already been taken. Making it exceptionally unlikely to be changed because of our "whingeing" about it. And the soonest that MIGHT have any effect is Heroes VIII, if there will ever be one.
Your post is out of date as Alcibiades addressed this earlier saying "not so much because I think it will have impact on the actual game, but because it's interesting to see what ideas people can bring to the table, and sometimes, in the end what comes out of it is more than what each of us individually brought in." Discussions can lead to good ideas (names, creatures, skills, etc) including players who might mod the game as has been done in previous versions. The alternative names given in this thread might be used by others, even if Limbic does not.
flonembourg said:
wise words
That's up for debate.
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted August 27, 2014 08:59 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 21:00, 27 Aug 2014.
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Nonetheless i love this haven lineup, and believe not only me cause it brings back the feel of heroes 2 knight city which i loved as a kid.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted August 27, 2014 09:37 PM |
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I would say that the Mystic fox is more something for dungeon than sylvan, as foxes are known for their trickery and illusions. Something that is more related to Melassa than Sylanna.
That said, I like the idea of a mystic fox, but for it to be champion material it would have to have nine tails and know some nastier magic.
Or the mystic fox could be a neutral champion with seven tails, 1 per element + prime  (inspiration I got from the manga Sengoku Youko)
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PyroStock
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 27, 2014 11:51 PM |
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Steyn said:
I would say that the Mystic fox is more something for dungeon than sylvan, as foxes are known for their trickery and illusions. Something that is more related to Melassa than Sylanna.
That said, I like the idea of a mystic fox, but for it to be champion material it would have to have nine tails and know some nastier magic.
Or the mystic fox could be a neutral champion with seven tails, 1 per element + prime (inspiration I got from the manga Sengoku Youko)
Foxes are also well known for their cunning, agility and forest life, which is Sylvan/Elf. A fox doesn't seem to fit dungeon's scary unit lineup/history (reptiles & unnatural monsterous hybrids). A fox, like a unicorn or sprite, is more... cute/adorable. Nevertheless, I guess Dungeon could warp it into some twisted monsterous hybrid that also has 9 tails. 
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted August 28, 2014 12:08 AM |
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i don't really mind which of these both they do but i want a mystic fox now xD well, actually i thought about a fox that could be in a less water yet still asian based sanctuary before, but it would work that way, too^^
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2014 08:52 AM |
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In AoW 2 Leprechaun was champion creature - weakfish, but extremely hard to hit at all.
Possible in HoMM as well: Imagine a 60 HP unit with something like a Luck ability that gave it an 80% chance to avoid any hit, unlimited retaliation and (for a champion) low damage - say around 20 or so. Might be pretty frustrating to go at it - but such a hard to hit dancing figure on the BF might be something, actually.
Of course it would raise the luck element a lot (in AoW, with the Halflings, you wouldn't mind that, though).
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted August 28, 2014 09:27 AM |
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In AoW2 you had one unit with such abilities, and it could be killable with combination of spells, blesses and creatures (flyers for example), that why it worked.
In HoMM series you would have dozens and hundres of such units, which will be very frustrating. You wouldn't kill them all with your spells only and their numbers would mean, that they could very easy decimate your armies.
Do you remember Ghost in H5 before they were fixed and how frustrating there were?
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 28, 2014 09:57 AM |
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I somehow suspect that the Swordbearer will be able to attack either multiple creatures behind eachother (akin the Dragon's Breath attack) because he is wielding such a huge twohander, or that he is able to attack all stacks in front of him (like the cerberus attack). Maybe both, maybe by default, maybe as activated ability. Whirlwind attack, like the Barbarian in Diablo 2?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2014 11:34 AM |
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Avonu said:
In AoW2 you had one unit with such abilities, and it could be killable with combination of spells, blesses and creatures (flyers for example), that why it worked.
In HoMM series you would have dozens and hundres of such units, which will be very frustrating. You wouldn't kill them all with your spells only and their numbers would mean, that they could very easy decimate your armies.
Do you remember Ghost in H5 before they were fixed and how frustrating there were?
You had one Champion unit. I wasn't suggesting this - I was only saying, that you COULD HAVE "weak" Champions without increasing their numbers. Of course this might be very frustrating - but, let's face it, in the end, who cares? Whether you won't hit or whether you are steamrollered by initiative-crazed speed-junkies - in the end it doesn't matter much, once you make a decision for variety (and in Aow 2 at least, with 15 races, it was no problem, as you said).
If there will be a flanking system in HoMM 7 this would mitigate things.
THAT SAID:
Remember the Mino's BLOCK ability in HoMM 4? Basically the same thing than uncorporeal, but of course, with an ability like that - BLOCK PHYSICAL MELEE ATTACK (50% probability), you could indeed make Swordbearer a Champion with Elite HPs. Even if you had only something like BLOCK (or DODGE) FIRST ATTACK COMPLETELY (and not more), you could do it.
Bottom line is this: Giving a unit that is weak on HP something to make up for it, that reduces the incoming damage is way better than increasing attack to ridiculous amounts of damage or give it hellish speed and init or so.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2014 01:23 PM |
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Except that DODGE FIRST ATTACK COMPLETELY would make things PREDICTABLE again. It would be a powerful ability that would make the player playing against it had to "waste" one attack; in a big battle, naturally, you'd want that to be a suicide attack of some useless remnants beyond redeeming, whereas the owner of them would want to finish up remnants even more avidly than usual to avoid this.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 28, 2014 02:31 PM |
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It's the most wonderful time of the year...
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 28, 2014 03:13 PM |
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@Maurice, the Swordbearer's ability is Sweep. Look at the messages in the IGN video at 6:08.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted August 28, 2014 03:20 PM |
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I guess he has sweep for now, we might see some modifications. It is too early anyway.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted August 31, 2014 03:31 PM |
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Edited by NACHOOOO at 00:47, 01 Sep 2014.
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He does feel like more of an elite creature when you compare it to what are champions in the other factions, my preference is for quality over quantity at the champion level for those talking of increased growth. I'll give it this, the animation of his attack looks sick
I would be more accepting of it as a champion creature if it was a Hercules/Achilles type warrior, his power influenced directly from the gods. Maybe give it a javelin throw as a once off per battle. Something to justify him as a champion
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Magic Bird, only a working
title. Phew
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 04, 2014 11:28 PM |
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blah 
NACHOOOO said:
I would be more accepting of it as a champion creature if it was a Hercules/Achilles type warrior, his power influenced directly from the gods.
Not a bad thought.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 05, 2014 12:00 AM |
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Speaking of which, berserk is the most convincing argument why a guy with a big sword can be a champion. But then Guts is somewhat special
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 05, 2014 07:30 AM |
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Btw. now the talk of the Swordbearer is up again ... I don't remember if this has been discussed before, but something I just recently noticed: They've given him a large (2x2) imprint on battlefield.  I mean, here we have a champion creature that is so "ordinary" that his only redeeming feature in terms of combat abilities would seem to be maneuverability through his small size, and then they choose to make him large?!?
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What will happen now?
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted September 05, 2014 08:22 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 08:28, 05 Sep 2014.
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alcibiades said:
I mean, here we have a champion creature that is so "ordinary" that his only redeeming feature in terms of combat abilities would seem to be maneuverability through his small size, and then they choose to make him large?!?
That's 3D for you
Well, hexes seem more justified then ever...
Like this?
[courtesy of Fantasy Flight Games]
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This thread is pages long: 
