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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 22, 2014 03:23 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Storm-Giant said:
War-overlord said:
Storm-Giant said:
All champion creatures having to be 2x2 for the sake of it?
Last I heard, we only know of 4 of the 12 Champion creatures, I think that is too soon to call. And we don't know if it is for the sake of it. It might be for balance reasons. Or other reasons.
You forgetting H5 & H6? 
That still does not mean that it is done for the sake of it.
That' how it looks to me. In H1-3 creatures sizes were 1 or 2 hexes depending of the creature design and how big their sprite were. In H5-7 it seems to be mandatory for a champion to be a big creature.
I'd love to hear their reason though. Maybe Elvin can help us here? (like in a Q&A in the future).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 04:01 PM |
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Think for a second, Stormy. Which creature has a wider cleave, a small one or a big one?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 22, 2014 04:04 PM |
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted August 22, 2014 04:09 PM |
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Stevie said:
My argument is flawed. Really. You don't see the net superiority of having 1 creatures with 200 hp than 2 with 100, do you? Not to mention that that creature is a FLYER and RESURRECTS, while the others are walkers that can (supposedly) deal more damage, and even that depending on the situation.
With a 200 hp pool you can take a max of 199 damage without losing a creature. With 100, a max of 99. That's a difference of 100. Chances are GREATER to lose troops with 100 hp creatures than with 200. And you don't only lose HP, you lose DAMAGE too. Because if you have 2 creatures with 100 hp and the enemy kills one, you will retaliate with only half the damage, while with a creature of 200 hp you retaliate it in full.
So anyone with an intelligence higher than one digit would probably go for the Angels just because of stats superiority. So unless the swordbearers have a better ability than the seraph's resurrect to compensate for it's stats inferiority, the decision of having seraphs in your lineup is a no-brainer.
First of all, we dont know the swordsmans abilities. And stats are not everything. The dwelling could be much cheaper, not requireing any special resources. That could be a tactical advantage on maps with little or hard to reach resources. On small maps with faster gameplay it can be a great advantage to get champion units faster then your opponent, in an multiplayer game for imstance. The enemy factions differ aswell, requireing different tactics, same when countering certain spells ,other creature abilities, hero builds etc. The game is more complicated then you describe it.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 22, 2014 04:12 PM |
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@Stevie
Your viewpoint is superficial, like most other things it is a matter of implementation. For instance, suppose that fortifications give +1 to champions, angels have +1 growth and swordmasters +2 growth. That makes it 2 angels vs 3 swordmasters. No huge difference in numbers, no need for huge difference in stats.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 04:20 PM |
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Maurice said:
Nelgirith said:
Templar or Hositaller doesn't sound very grim like Haven is supposed to be in this episod. One of the insiders said they chose the Wolf Dutchy to represent the Haven, so for me, the swordbearer fits well there. It's ... just ... that ... name ...
Actually, when I think of a Templar, I see a grizzled warrior, gritting his teeth as he wreaks havoc on his opponents, with a bloody weapon, wearing armor with a torn, dirty coat of arms. I most definately do not see them as a knight in shiny armor with all sorts of moral and ethical considerations towards their enemies .
For me templars would fit better as a unit for the H5-HoF Haven, zealous, pious and violent. Wolf Duchy really reminds me of the Stark in GoT and as such, the look of the swordbearers is great.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 04:33 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:33, 22 Aug 2014.
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Elvin said:
@Stevie
Your viewpoint is superficial, like most other things it is a matter of implementation. For instance, suppose that fortifications give +1 to champions, angels have +1 growth and swordmasters +2 growth. That makes it 2 angels vs 3 swordmasters. No huge difference in numbers, no need for huge difference in stats.
If both swordbearers and seraphs have 200 hp and roughly the same stats then yes. If the former have 133 hp, then no. You don't want to divide the health percentage to a greater number of units. That's not a solution, that just deepens the problem. You want to offer a decent ability that makes the swordbearers a better choice for your lineup than a seraph in certain situations. Seraphs provide more utility, while swordbearers more damage. Players should feel compelled to pick one or the other just because of their playstyle and nothing more.
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PhoenixMK
Hired Hero
Burn baby, BURN!!!
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posted August 22, 2014 04:59 PM |
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If the Angels are the only flying units in Haven then the Swordbearers will always be in their shadow if they aren't nearly equal in statistics. The difference between the Angels and Champions in Heroes IV is very big.
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"I'm Phoenix. If I die it's only to be reborn — hopefully better and brighter than before."
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 05:11 PM |
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Thinking of Game of Thrones...
The Swordbearer can be HOMM's version of Gregor Clegane, the Mountain! Absurdly huge and brutal men wearing the heaviest armor and carrying massive weapons nobody else can lift. And yes, their size and strength can be attributed to a giant origin- perhaps a clan of huge men allied to the Wolf Duchy. With that origin, they can be the best mortalkind has to offer. BTW- I also think the Angel/Seraph's face should be visible, or at least look like light flowing out of their hoods (aka Tyrael from Diablo). They shouldn't have helmets covering all their faces, because all others human units do.
And- for Elites, I would still put Griffins in, even if it's Wolf Duchy (and that leakd Watcher unit looks interesting). Alternately, how about some nasty bad-ass flying beast like a Wyvern, Drake or Chimera? We don't want an all-human Haven, a unit like a Glory is super-boring (although they should remain, as summonable Light Elementals) so bring out the beasts! A Roc/T-Bird would also be cool, if the scaly monsters stay in the Dungeon (and just call the Academy Champion Phoenix already!).
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Dwarfurious
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 05:12 PM |
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I like them, they're straight out of Clash of Heroes and they were cool there. They might be very interesting, like the crusaders in Heroes 2, they may be much cheaper than other champions but not as strong but they can get more of them.
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Thanir
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 05:17 PM |
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Elvin said:
Guess I am old fashioned but I love these guys. Crusaders were an awesome champion back in the day and even if swordmasters are nowhere near as glorious, they bring a much needed change. They do not have to measure up to a dragon but then neither did H2 crusaders. A weaker champion with slightly higher growth could work just fine. They may be only human but they can get the job done 
Now if they had similar stats to other champions and same growth, I would find them lame. The whole appeal of humans is being able to win against overwhelming odds despite their limitations.
I agree with you, I liked them in Heroes 2 and I also like them as a champion creature for Haven in Heroes 7. I think they fit a Human town really well and they are a welcome change to the angels we have since Heroes 3. Don't get me wrong, I like the angels and I think they fit Haven too but they get a bit stale after so many games.
I also agree that they should have inferior stats to other champion creatures like dragons, titans or even the angels they will compete with in Haven and that this should be compensated with more growth.
I even think the name fits because most of the Human/Haven creatures have very basic names that simply state their function (e.g. archer, pikeman, swordsman in H2, pikeman, archer, swordsman in H3, peasent, archer, footman, priest in H5, or crossbowman, horseman, guard in H7 to name only some of them). Swordbearer is certainly not one of the most creative creature names we ever got but in my opinion it fits the faction it belongs to.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword. Your side, their side, and the truth.
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 06:02 PM |
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In a game full or boring, overused creatures, this horrid unit is the worst.
I hate them most of all units this far and the name is extremly boring.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 22, 2014 06:07 PM |
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What you guys are forgetting is the synergy with other units. It could very well be that the Swordbearer has a (much) stronger synergy that you could have with Angels or something.
Alternatively, they mentioned something about Morale being important for Haven, moreso than other factions, as it gives double the amount of attacks. It could be that the Swordbearer benefits a great deal from Morale personally (double attacks of a heavy hitter = 2x heavy hits, after all), so they're likely to do a lot more damage than Angels could do.
Angels have always been a powerhouse, but they've been defensive units for the most part due to their enormous hit point total as well as being able to resurrect allies. I think the Swordbearer is going to be very offensive in his role, thereby fulfilling a different position within the Haven line-up. As such, I think it's like comparing apples to oranges when trying to compare Angels to Swordbearers. We'll have to wait and see how they play before we can judge whether they fit as a Champion or are better suited as an Elite creature.
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 06:09 PM |
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I don't care, humans should never be powerful.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 22, 2014 06:09 PM |
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PhoenixMK said:
If the Angels are the only flying units in Haven then the Swordbearers will always be in their shadow if they aren't nearly equal in statistics. The difference between the Angels and Champions in Heroes IV is very big.
That's why they have to hit right with Swordbearer abilities. If they offer a distinct gameplay, coupled with their cheapness they can earn their place in Haven lineup.
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Dwarfurious
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 06:09 PM |
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Rakshasa92 said:
In a game full or boring, overused creatures, this horrid unit is the worst.
I hate them most of all units this far and the name is extremly boring.
Please tell us, what does this unit do? What is his role, his backstory, what horrible thing did he do to you to be labeled as such?
Like other people are saying he could fill a role that is very distinct. It doesnt matter if hes a human, thats partially what makes it badass. I'd hope for a Dwarf champion unit too, a Gotrek caliber war machine.
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 06:19 PM |
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Dwarfurious said:
Rakshasa92 said:
In a game full or boring, overused creatures, this horrid unit is the worst.
I hate them most of all units this far and the name is extremly boring.
Please tell us, what does this unit do? What is his role, his backstory, what horrible thing did he do to you to be labeled as such?
Like other people are saying he could fill a role that is very distinct. It doesnt matter if hes a human, thats partially what makes it badass. I'd hope for a Dwarf champion unit too, a Gotrek caliber war machine.
It is a simple human without another more powerful creature to support it. Having it at the same strength as a titan or phoenix-like bird is just pathetic.
Humans are weak without help or magic.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 22, 2014 06:22 PM |
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Quote:
It is a simple human without another more powerful creature to support it. Having it at the same strength as a titan or phoenix-like bird is just pathetic.
That doesn't exactly strike me as pathetic.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 22, 2014 06:23 PM |
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And why you think he has the same strenght as a Titan? Just because it's on Champion tier?
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Dwarfurious
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 06:24 PM |
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Rakshasa92 said:
Dwarfurious said:
Rakshasa92 said:
In a game full or boring, overused creatures, this horrid unit is the worst.
I hate them most of all units this far and the name is extremly boring.
Please tell us, what does this unit do? What is his role, his backstory, what horrible thing did he do to you to be labeled as such?
Like other people are saying he could fill a role that is very distinct. It doesnt matter if hes a human, thats partially what makes it badass. I'd hope for a Dwarf champion unit too, a Gotrek caliber war machine.
It is a simple human without another more powerful creature to support it. Having it at the same strength as a titan or phoenix-like bird is just pathetic.
Humans are weak without help or magic.
Thats an assumption on his stats, like others have been saying he could be HALF as powerful but much cheaper and more plentiful, costing no rare resources. That immediately makes him unique. Also, his armor/weapon could be magical. He looks like a pretty big human too, probably RAISED for battle.
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