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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 01:47 PM |
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Don't like the concept. A human will step to other champion units like dragons because what, he trained and took steroids? I'd rather see angels, or some dire giant wolves or heck, light dragons instead of some champion in shining armor.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 22, 2014 01:54 PM |
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I thought the angels were going to be champions in shining armor.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 22, 2014 01:58 PM |
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Guess I am old fashioned but I love these guys. Crusaders were an awesome champion back in the day and even if swordmasters are nowhere near as glorious, they bring a much needed change. They do not have to measure up to a dragon but then neither did H2 crusaders. A weaker champion with slightly higher growth could work just fine. They may be only human but they can get the job done 
Now if they had similar stats to other champions and same growth, I would find them lame. The whole appeal of humans is being able to win against overwhelming odds despite their limitations.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 22, 2014 02:04 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 14:07, 22 Aug 2014.
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kayna said:
Don't like the concept. A human will step to other champion units like dragons because what, he trained and took steroids?
It is frequent in medieval folklore to have some unexplained things described as marvels, in which situation renders possible things like men killing dragons, or to suit the example many of battles Lancelot has made in Vulgate cycle, like defeating lots of infantry by himself, ie. Iconic legends, fits without doubt as Champion to me and YES again it is freaking good to have some change in Haven line up after so many years.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 22, 2014 02:04 PM |
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Elvin said:
Now if they had similar stats to other champions and same growth, I would find them lame. The whole appeal of humans is being able to win against overwhelming odds despite their limitations.
By overwhelming numbers 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 02:12 PM |
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Wow, so basically we're going to see that system again with 2 Cavaliers for each Angel from H4. Now, how well did that work.
I find it more lame to have a half assed excuse of a champion that wouldn't hold a candle to a Seraph. No-brainer line-up choices all over again.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 22, 2014 02:29 PM |
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I do not remember how paladins measured up to angels but H4 balancing generally sucked. That doesn't help you make a good point.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 02:29 PM |
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I, in contrast to Elvin, would gladly have that unit as an Elite guy, but can't for the life of it see a champion in them.
Since Duchy of Eolf is supposed to be German and they took the wolf in, I had taken the chance to try the effect of bringing in a typical German mythological creature - the Giant.
Stark contrast to the devout Winged Ones, a really ugly beast with a really ugly giant mace - or two for double hit and crusader-like effect.
I would have LOVED a real MONSTER in Haven, but no, has to be some wondrously strong human that can be mass-produced. 
Definitely not my Champion.
Now think clearly: if the alternative is a FLYING, RESURRECTING dude - what kind of either punch or production will the guy have to feature to make up for that massive disadvantage?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 02:30 PM |
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Elvin said:
Guess I am old fashioned but I love these guys. Crusaders were an awesome champion back in the day and even if swordmasters are nowhere near as glorious, they bring a much needed change. They do not have to measure up to a dragon but then neither did H2 crusaders. A weaker champion with slightly higher growth could work just fine. They may be only human but they can get the job done
Now if they had similar stats to other champions and same growth, I would find them lame. The whole appeal of humans is being able to win against overwhelming odds despite their limitations.
Will you get a cookie from the developers now?
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 22, 2014 02:34 PM |
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Of course, why else would I say that?
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 22, 2014 02:35 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Now think clearly: if the alternative is a FLYING, RESURRECTING dude - what kind of either punch or production will the guy have to feature to make up for that massive disadvantage?
Maybe he provides a truckload of moral or stat buffs to allied creatures for some reason?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 02:41 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:47, 22 Aug 2014.
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Sarcasm doesn't help you Elvis. Not even JJ agrees with you. A champion that has its main difference in the numbers it's produced in is a FAIL. That didn't work with H4, and it won't work with anything else. Balance, bugs and jazz hold no relevance. It's the concept that's flawed.
Champions are champions because they're big creatures with a lot of hp that have the best stats in the game. Compromise that in ANY way and you compromise the idea of champion.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 02:44 PM |
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Galaad said:
YES again it is freaking good to have some change in Haven line up after so many years.
Well................... Yeah. But maybe we could get a real change, maybe we could remove that whole haven faction just once and get forteress instead or something. NOw that ll be real change!
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted August 22, 2014 02:52 PM |
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Stevie said:
Sarcasm doesn't help you Elvis. Not even JJ agrees with you. A champion that has its main difference in the numbers it's produced is a FAIL. That didn't work with H4, and it won't work with anything else. Balance, bugs and jazz hold no relevance. It's the concept that's flawed.
Champions are champions because they're big creatures with a lot of hp that have the best stats in the game. Compromise that in ANY way and you compromise the idea of champion.
All heroes games has differences in stats and production / week for the different champion creatures. Starting from heroes 1-2 where the castle champion were much cheaper and but in greater numbers. Your argument is flawed. I think its a charming nod to the roots of the whole franchise, even to Clash of heroes.
____________
"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 02:56 PM |
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Avirosb said:
JollyJoker said:
Now think clearly: if the alternative is a FLYING, RESURRECTING dude - what kind of either punch or production will the guy have to feature to make up for that massive disadvantage?
Maybe he provides a truckload of moral or stat buffs to allied creatures for some reason?
Doesn't make much sense - who could deliver more moral support than a supernatural child of a Dragongod with the ability to resurrect you from the grave? And stat buffs? I thought, that's what the Hero was there for!
Keep in mind I don't know more about abilities and stats as you - but is there any other way than giving the guy double hit - Cleave, letting him do massive damage?
My reasoning was, if you have a flying resurrecting guy to pick or a melee walker in a faction that comes with 2 shooter and 4 melee (no Griffin flyer) - what CAN possibly make you pick the 5th melee?
Right, a ton of HPs and brutal strength, waltzing over the opposition - that's why I pointed to the good old Giant (lacking a viable alternative).
Swordbearer is somewhat - well he's not only supposed to be Iron Man, he's also a guy that can be mass-produced.
If you consider that Paladin/Crusader had 50/65 HPs in HoMM 2 where the guys were champions - great. Fits. Titan 300, fine. There it worked. Here, for me - can't really imagine it.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 03:03 PM |
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I'm now imagining a Giant in Knight's armour and it's awesome.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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red_flag
Known Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 03:05 PM |
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Edited by red_flag at 15:19, 22 Aug 2014.
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JollyJoker said:
Since Duchy of Eolf is supposed to be German and they took the wolf in, I had taken the chance to try the effect of bringing in a typical German mythological creature - the Giant.
I like that
As do to the Swordbearer why don't do the champion for example the Horseman and call him Paladin/Crusader? Edt.ohh...it's can't be paladin, since it's one of the heroes classes.
Horseman with his strong horse much more equal to the champion in my opinion than some foot-borne angry guy even if he remind to us the Heroes 1,2 most strongest kinght unit. But there were only 6 tier, not 7
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 03:06 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:32, 22 Aug 2014.
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My argument is flawed. Really. You don't see the net superiority of having 1 creatures with 200 hp than 2 with 100, do you? Not to mention that that creature is a FLYER and RESURRECTS, while the others are walkers that can (supposedly) deal more damage, and even that depending on the situation.
With a 200 hp pool you can take a max of 199 damage without losing a creature. With 100, a max of 99. That's a difference of 100. Chances are GREATER to lose troops with 100 hp creatures than with 200. And you don't only lose HP, you lose DAMAGE too. Because if you have 2 creatures with 100 hp and the enemy kills one, you will retaliate with only half the damage, while with a creature of 200 hp you retaliate it in full.
So anyone with an intelligence higher than one digit would probably go for the Angels just because of stats superiority. So unless the swordbearers have a better ability than the seraph's resurrect to compensate for it's stats inferiority, the decision of having seraphs in your lineup is a no-brainer.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 22, 2014 03:13 PM |
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Aren't you gonna buy both eventually?
Or has it been established that you can only choose one?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2014 03:21 PM |
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It doesn't matter whether you can buy both or not, because you have to go for one first, naturally, and a Champion dwelling doesn't come cheap. So whether you can build both or not, there will always be a preference for one.
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