|
| Thread: What do you think of the MMH7 skill system insofar? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
posted April 20, 2015 12:53 AM |
|
|
Protolisk said:
but there is still a randomizer, so others shouldn't be too mad on that front.
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but that randomizer is a farce. The biggest point about the randomizer is to get random skills for you to choose for your Hero. Once you get a skill, the random element is of far lesser importance.
Since all 10 skills are already set in stone from level 1 of each Hero, the randomizer is marginal at best. In fact, in its current form, they could easily have left it out as it's not going to be what was intended with the #GURS thingy. As they say in my country, they made us happy with a dead bird on that one. 
|
|
Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 07:19 AM |
|
|
Maurice said:
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but that randomizer is a farce. The biggest point about the randomizer is to get random skills for you to choose for your Hero. Once you get a skill, the random element is of far lesser importance.
Since all 10 skills are already set in stone from level 1 of each Hero, the randomizer is marginal at best. In fact, in its current form, they could easily have left it out as it's not going to be what was intended with the #GURS thingy. As they say in my country, they made us happy with a dead bird on that one.
I feel my bubble remains unburst, personally, as I already said I didn't care for randomness. But, I'm sorry you didn't get what you so loudly cried out for. Perhaps it is yet another way Ubisoft twists your aspirations, hopes and dreams into ruin? Like a classical genie tale, you wished for random skills, and it granted you random skills. Just not what you expected, yes? Kind of makes you regret wishing for it in the first place. 
But still, yes, you are right, it's not true, full randomization. True, it's more exclusionary than H3 or H5 were. In fact, I suppose it's more exclusionary than H6 was. In fact, I even see this as a sort of reaction to H6: H6 had nearly everyone having super open "trees", and every hero was nearly identical baring slight faction differences and certain school lockouts. Now, each hero must have a specified wheel. You still pick and choose, but heroes across factions won't have near identical builds, since they could possibly have 0 skills in common from the get go (though this is unlikely). Of course, some may be identical, because the player decided he was going to do that where applicable, not the invisible hand of a dice-rolling computer.
And, although you call this randomizer a farce, would I be so bold to call the randomness in a skill system itself a farce? I still don't entirely get why people care so much about randomness. I've read some reasons, but they just don't sit right with me. I remember Stevie saying something along the lines of "Heroes was never about getting what you wanted, it was about getting what you got and adapting to the situation". But when you choose between two random choices, aren't you still choosing what you think is best? If it wasn't a random choice, wouldn't you have gone for that skill? Unless it was a choice between things you didn't care for, which I suppose you have to adapt to a play-style you don't like. Isn't the point of factions, hero specializations, might and magic archetypes, choosing what units to build, when and how many upgraded units, is that you have a play-style you like, and thus are geared towards playing it? And you just said yourself: once you chose your skill, the actual randomness becomes less important. So... again, wherefore does randomness exist? In my mind, H7 does all that "randomness" of skills away by rolling it for you beforehand, and yes, that leads to set skills. However, there is some residual randomness because people still want randomness, and the great Ubinie granted it to them.
So when it comes down to it, are you not going to get H7 because of this lack of what you wanted? Because that sounds eerily similar to what I said happens when someone playing a game with randomness got a choice he didn't want: he stops playing. Perhaps not the game entirely, but he might abandon ship out of that one. Don't people tend to redo campaigns because they got a crappy skill they just had no purpose using for the rest of the campaign? Same deal. I suppose the competitive parts preclude these "rage quits", as they are, lest the player seem petty due to quitting out of a multiplayer game an hour in because things weren't going his way. But didn't someone (I think this was also Stevie) say Heroes just isn't that competitive? Isn't that the whole point of multiplayer though, to be competitive? I suppose it isn't extremely competitive like others, but isn't the goal of a game is to get a large player base playing the game? Which, especially for Heroes, would primarily be against each other? Sounds competitive to me. And it's not like other parts aren't random: luck, morale, the mage guild, neutral stacks, be they hostile or friendly to a point, or over powered for their position (Arcane Archers still give me the shivers) or largely pathetic (Go Zombies!), along with things like artifacts and their locations and with which guards? Isn't the point of skills is how your hero develops in order to react to all the other random parts of the game, either by finagling with morale and luck values, making spells given by the guilds more potent, using diplomacy to bring neutrals into the fold, or using various offensive skills to grind them into dust, with utilizing artifacts better to fill in the gaps in your skills?
Further, why would randomness in hero development even make a lick of sense? Your hero should be developing his powers, his strengths, his strategies. Not bumbling through on his way to victory. If your knightly vassal decided that instead of learning advanced formations to train his current army, he he would rather try to find ways to barter better in marketplaces, or possibly help train people back at the castle, even though he is your front-line general weeks away, you'd get him to do what he needs to do, or worse, fire the guy: he's not doing his job. I suppose that's it then: randomness factors in how each hero has a "mind of his own" and by god he's gonna learn what he wants. But, if this is the case, then why have choice at all? Let the computer do it. After all, they are already nearly there: 2 skill choices out of 25? The computer is 92% done finishing his personal level up. Just nudge him a bit to eliminate the final 8%, I suppose, it's not like you have a war to win and a land to conquer and need the best armies to do so.
Quoth the Stevie, "Heroes was never about getting what you wanted, it was about getting what you got and adapting to the situation." Considering many people's reaction to the system now, I find it amusing.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 07:41 AM |
|
|
I still feel the current system can be, if not completely perfect, then at least made considerably better by a rather small change. We know there are 24 skills, and each class currently has access to 9 of them. If we take the three Haven Might classes, my guess is that they combined have access to a considerably larger portion of those 24 skills, even if some still are barred.
So my sugestion is this: Look back to H4 and make it so that when you start the game, you have a base class (Haven Might would be "Knight") that has access to all the skills the three current classes have. Then based one what skill selection you make, you'll specialize and develop an advanced class. This will narrow down your range of available choices for remaining skills, but also give you some new class abilities relating to your new class. It's not a perfect system, but it would at least allow for some adaptation to the situation and not locking everything in stone at the moment you start the game.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 08:24 AM |
|
|
Maurice said:
Sorry to burst your bubble here, but that randomizer is a farce. The biggest point about the randomizer is to get random skills for you to choose for your Hero. Once you get a skill, the random element is of far lesser importance.
Since all 10 skills are already set in stone from level 1 of each Hero, the randomizer is marginal at best. In fact, in its current form, they could easily have left it out as it's not going to be what was intended with the #GURS thingy. As they say in my country, they made us happy with a dead bird on that one.
This is true but as you know, certain skills in the great H5 had so litle chance to appear, you couldn't take them into account, while others appeared all the time. So with planning to which skills to sellect (since some perks had cross-skill requierments), it was wise to go for the "guearanteed" skills. It was 10 skills per class even there for all intended purposes.
YES this soft lock was BETTER than skills are now, but I don't see it as nearly as much of a tragedy, or random skill breaker.
Also to point is, you can always play a random hero. Then set of each 10 skills will be selected randomly - with all 24 (or however much) available from start. If this option exists ofc. This is why we must know more. Because if random hero does not exist, there realy is NOT much randomness, and you have a point. It comes a lot down to this.
____________
|
|
The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 08:57 AM |
|
|
alcibiades said:
So my sugestion is this: Look back to H4 and make it so that when you start the game, you have a base class (Haven Might would be "Knight") that has access to all the skills the three current classes have. Then based one what skill selection you make, you'll specialize and develop an advanced class. This will narrow down your range of available choices for remaining skills, but also give you some new class abilities relating to your new class. It's not a perfect system, but it would at least allow for some adaptation to the situation and not locking everything in stone at the moment you start the game.
This is basically what I was trying to say with:
The_green_drag said:
Let us pick our mains from a pool of available skills depending on which faction we pick and whether we play might or magic. What we pick can determine our hero class and the extra skills that come with it. Any extra skills cannot be leveled up to get ultimate abilities, only main skills can. This way players can be free to try different ultimate abilities with different factions, not just the preselected ones.
Which would essentially allow the system to be more like the past versions when every skill is available to each faction. I'd like it a lot more with these simple changes.
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 08:58 AM |
|
|
|
i like it. reasonable amount of depth without being too complicated. What you can get is clear and visible and you know how to get it. that said, it's not perfect. some pre-requisites would be nice and it's a bit too limiting. would be nice to be able to get high-end skills in any tree. right now though, i really like it. But we'll see how it progresses.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 10:48 AM |
|
|
The_Green_Drag said:
This is basically what I was trying to say with:
The_green_drag said:
Let us pick our mains from a pool of available skills depending on which faction we pick and whether we play might or magic. What we pick can determine our hero class and the extra skills that come with it. Any extra skills cannot be leveled up to get ultimate abilities, only main skills can. This way players can be free to try different ultimate abilities with different factions, not just the preselected ones.
Which would essentially allow the system to be more like the past versions when every skill is available to each faction. I'd like it a lot more with these simple changes.
Yes, sorry if I didn't see your post also, I'm in full agreement.
With regards to the Ultimate Abilities, I would rather that these come in form of synergy abilities between multiple spell schools. For instance, to give some examples in terms of H5 versions, that could be:
- Arcane Omniscience (learn all spells): Opened by Enlightenment + Summoning Magic + Light Magic + perks.
- Rage Of The Elements (all spells have increased power): Opened by Sorcery + Destructive Magic + Dark Magic + perks.
- Nature's Luck (increases maximum luck to 10 and +3 luck): Opened by Luck + Attack + Logistics + perks.
- Glorious Assault (increases maximum morale to 10 and +3 morale): Opened by Leadership + Defense + Enlightenment + perks.
Etc.
This would be a flexible system which would mean you could aim for different "ultimate abilities" depending on what your skill choices are. There might be some that were locked out (if your class is barred from Dark Magic, obviously you can't learn Rage Of The Elements), but there should be a wider selection than only three for each class. Also, I think the number of "ultimate abilities" one should be able to learn should be limited to perhaps one or maximum two on each hero in order to not make this the sole focus of the hero build.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Limbic-Jaelle
Shaper of Lore
Communication Management, Limbic Ent.
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 11:15 AM |
|
|
Hey fellas,
We are currently preparing a statement regarding the skillwheel mechanism. Could you please share with us your main questions (in bullet points) regarding this Topics, so we can integrate them in the feedback of our gamedesigners?
Important information: In this state of the game, there will be no changes in the system and the mechanics. We would like to answer your question and concerns regarding this topic.
Thanks for your help and passion!
Cheers, Limbic-Jaelle
Short addition: This request is, to make things more clear, where it's needed. That's why we asked precisely for the open questions here.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 11:41 AM |
|
|
Just to understand this correctly ... You want to know what we are dissatisfied with, but there won't be any changes?
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 11:46 AM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 11:51, 20 Apr 2015.
|
Limbic-Jaelle said:
Important information: In this state of the game, there will be no changes in the system and the mechanics.
I'm just... speechless... All that feedback for nothing.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 11:49 AM |
|
Edited by Avonu at 11:51, 20 Apr 2015.
|
alcibiades said:
Just to understand this correctly ... You want to know what we are dissatisfied with, but there won't be any changes?
Yup. We just get an arcticle explaining a little clearer the most "hot" topics of skillwheel but it's too late for any major changes in... I think in anything important in Heroes 7. At least in vanillia game.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 11:52 AM |
|
|
Here's a question from me before I succumb to utter sadness - How many skills are there exactly, excluding racials? Can we get an enumeration accompanied by a short description of what they do? That would be useful.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
Limbic-Jaelle
Shaper of Lore
Communication Management, Limbic Ent.
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 11:59 AM |
|
|
alcibiades said:
Just to understand this correctly ... You want to know what we are dissatisfied with, but there won't be any changes?
No. I want to ask, which informations and details about the skillwheel is missing in your opinion.
We read the feedbacks, we took our informations out of it, but we are not capable to make big changes in this state of the game any more.
|
|
Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 12:02 PM |
|
|
Limbic-Jaelle said:
alcibiades said:
Just to understand this correctly ... You want to know what we are dissatisfied with, but there won't be any changes?
No. I want to ask, which informations and details about the skillwheel is missing in your opinion.
We read the feedbacks, we took our informations out of it, but we are not capable to make big changes in this state of the game any more.
And that is why people asked for articles about mechanics etc long before they actually arrived. To be able to see the system and how it works in an earlier stage, so that it would be easier to propose and implement changes.
____________
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 12:12 PM |
|
|
Limbic-Jaelle said:
alcibiades said:
Just to understand this correctly ... You want to know what we are dissatisfied with, but there won't be any changes?
No. I want to ask, which informations and details about the skillwheel is missing in your opinion.
Question by Stevie is a good one:
1) Which Skills exist and in which category (Magic, Might, Adventure?) do they fall? Brief explanation on what each skill does would be useful too.
My own:
2) Are there any prerequisites for perks at all, or is it a free, open choice as long as the proper tier has been unlocked?
|
|
Limbic-Jaelle
Shaper of Lore
Communication Management, Limbic Ent.
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 12:14 PM |
|
|
Dies_Irae said:
Limbic-Jaelle said:
alcibiades said:
Just to understand this correctly ... You want to know what we are dissatisfied with, but there won't be any changes?
No. I want to ask, which informations and details about the skillwheel is missing in your opinion.
We read the feedbacks, we took our informations out of it, but we are not capable to make big changes in this state of the game any more.
And that is why people asked for articles about mechanics etc long before they actually arrived. To be able to see the system and how it works in an earlier stage, so that it would be easier to propose and implement changes.
I am sure there were reasons, why the informations about that weren't posted as early as you wished. I see your point in that, but I had no influence in that point.
We just want to make things better in answering, what's still left to know.
|
|
Sligneris
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 12:30 PM |
|
|
|
Now that they don't know who to blame, I get this feeling they're going to blame Erwan.
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 12:40 PM |
|
|
I will accept this decision for the vanilla as it was probably made with budget and time constraints in mind and I'm not planning to be unreasonable on that. What I will not accept, however, is no skill system redesign whatsoever with the first expansion that comes out. By the time an expansion would happen, you'd have all the time, the money and the feedback in the world to get things straight once and for all.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 12:47 PM |
|
|
Heroes 8 Stevie, the lack of replayability that Heroes 7 might have will help the sales lol
____________
|
|
ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 20, 2015 12:49 PM |
|
|
OK, so here are some question:
1. How powerful will the ultimates be and will there be any requirements to get to them? For example only level 10 hero can reach them? It is important so that the players don't rush straight to them - this will kill the variety and will make the game too linear as everyone will be chasing only ultimates straight from the beginning and focus only on main skills.
2. Will every hero have fixed skillwheel, meaning that we cannot change the skills, we can only choose abilities?
3. If number 2 is true, the number of heroes becomes important question. How many heroes per faction will there be?
4. About the Random skill system - does it mean that you will get random skills for your hero or is it just random abilities during the game within the fixed skillwheel for every hero?
5. More explanation on Major and Minor skills.
|
| |
|
|
