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| Thread: What do you think of the MMH7 skill system insofar? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2015 05:14 PM |
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Dies_Irae said:
Fair enough. I find H6 replayable too, you know  .
Careful, they'll eat you for saying that.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 20, 2015 05:41 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Dies_Irae said:
Fair enough. I find H6 replayable too, you know .
Careful, they'll eat you for saying that.
I'm still alive even after posting this, so I don't worry at all .
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted April 20, 2015 07:00 PM |
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Of course you are, since nobody reads that section anyway. (Except for a very few people, maybe ...)
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LightAvatarX
Known Hero
Water,Earth,Fire,Air
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posted April 20, 2015 07:07 PM |
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 20, 2015 07:11 PM |
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Dies_Irae said:
I'm still alive even after posting this, so I don't worry at all .
I agree with you on pretty much all terms. The only things I didn't like about H6 were its spells-as-skills, acquired upon level-up, which sadly, is quite pervasive, along with the dumb DRM.
But, H7 is removing both those features, and is making the other features more balanced (Town portal was a bit too overpowered as it was in H6). I still see no heavy downsides at this point.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 20, 2015 07:45 PM |
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if anyone cares (which you don't, but shut up) i would like to elaborate a bit. I don't think this is the best possible skill-system, however i think it is the best possible non-random system they could've made. would a system based on random variables have been better? sure, but this one isn't and it's as good as i think it can get without being random.
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Neovius
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 20, 2015 08:47 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
however i think it is the best possible non-random system they could've made.
It would be way better with some pre-reqs, not as hardcore as H5 though. As it is right now, there's no risk in picking abilities, you just pick everything you want and that's it. With pre-reqs you would get into situation, where you need to choose a weaker ability, if you want a stronger one for example, or sacrifice one ability you like for another, which adds some depth to the game.
Also there should be some limit on how much abilities you can get per skill imo.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 20, 2015 09:11 PM |
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Neovius said:
It would be way better with some pre-reqs, not as hardcore as H5 though. As it is right now, there's no risk in picking abilities, you just pick everything you want and that's it.
pre-reqs in this case mostly boils down to preference and i'm not sure they would really improve the system that much since they wouldn't have much impact other than the order you pick skills. i would like it but is's hardly necessary or needed. if it was random Pre-reqs would have a much bigger impact and as such be more important.
Neovius said:
Also there should be some limit on how much abilities you can get per skill imo.
no. unlimited skills per tree allows for much more depth through (or lack off) specialization as long as the total number of skills has a limit. if i want to max out attack i should be able too but i won't have as many skills over for other trees. really, in hindsight this might be my biggest complaint of the h5 system.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted April 22, 2015 08:56 PM |
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Steyn said:
Limbic-Jaelle said:
Hey fellas,
We are currently preparing a statement regarding the skillwheel mechanism. Could you please share with us your main questions (in bullet points) regarding this Topics, so we can integrate them in the feedback of our gamedesigners.
- Will there be racial perks outside of the racial skill?
- Will the random system use these non-random skillwheels, or will you be able to fill up your skillwheel with skills from the total skill pool?
- Will there be starting skills and will these differ per hero or per class?
I have another question, which came to my mind because of the article on the destiny skill.
To be able to increase the rank of a secondary skill from expert to master, do you need an expert perk, or is an extra novice perk sufficient? Similar for the grandmaster perk: do you need the master perk, or can you unlock it by spending an additional skill point in a perk, regardless of its rank (novice, expert or master)?
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 22, 2015 11:32 PM |
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 23, 2015 12:31 AM |
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Elvin said:
Mixed but I am leaning more towards don't like than like.
Same here. It has potential, yet I can't but feel we're missing a lot.
If after release we get the confirmation that the skill system is indeed bad, then I sincerely hope Ubilimbic is willing to make changes in future expansion(s). I'm not even speaking about full rework, even a few changes and expanding the skill wheel of each hero class would already be great changes in my opinion.
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ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 23, 2015 11:39 AM |
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As a whole, all the skills are way too overpowered and I will keep repeating this. If the spells are dealing monster damage and the attack skill has some great abilities, then the battles will be over in a couple of turns. I'd rather focus on units and their positioing on the battlefield and not so much on skills, magic and abilities.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 23, 2015 03:06 PM |
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When Heroes 7 was first announced, I was thrilled, fulfilled by the most crystalline joy. Truth is, I really thought after Heroes 6 the franchise was dead at best, or would transform into MMO at worst.
So when I saw new versions of Haven and Academy in the world of Ashan, when I heard statements advertising a skill system which would contain elements from Heroes 5, I probably went too optimistic and overlooked that statement. Inevitably, it was not conceivable for me that the “form of a wheel” would have been the only thing in common about it! To me it was obvious it was referring to mechanics. But no, apparently it wasn’t. I am sick and tired of trying to make the best out of a bad situation, wishing for things to get slightly fixed in expansions etc, no god damn it! A good system which will have decent lifespan is not done by trying to fix a core which is done in the wrong direction. Yes, the wrong direction, I mean, really, is the system based on Heroes 6 the one we all love and cherish? Obviously not! This is crazy, I just can’t take it anymore. I have a feeling too many people here fear for the franchise to die and feel the need to “support” systems which has been PROVEN TO BE BAD. They are NOT going to change this, we will end up with a poor vanilla, hoping for things to get “fixed” in expansions, which WON’T, BECAUSE THE VERY CORE IS MESSED UP. How can you people think we can fix things like that, black magic maybe?
My firm conviction is that for something to be good, it has to be good from the core, and how the hell is a h6 based system good from the core? Please enlighten me, for the love of Heroes. The way I see things, we will have something obviously better than h6 BECAUSE THAT’S REALLY NOT HARD, but h5 will still be unmatched (and I don’t even speak of h3). I know some people at Limbic are trying to do the best they can, but IMHO the best they can do is make something decent, because leveling up is one of the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the game, even if it doesn’t make it all, and I think they are clearly messing it up. I read almost all comments here, and I still didn’t find anything to convince me that it will turn out so good. All I see is compromises and hopes for expansions. HOPES FOR EXPANSIONS! People, what the hell are you thinking??? The game is not even alpha stage (or maybe now it is) and we already think of how to “fix” things in expansions?? Are you for real???
An expansion expands the base game, but the base game has to be good! And no, I am tired of “decent”, this franchise was great before, one of the best -if not the best- and now that we have to opportunity to voice ourselves, all we do is present the red carpet to the people which participated in the horrid Heroes 6 and we have to try keeping positive about the whole thing? BUT HOW THE HELL CAN YOU KEEP POSITIVE?? It is simply not possible to me, no, too many things are messed up. If the core mechanics of the game fails, so will the lifespan.
But when game is out, it will be too late to complain, how can’t you get that?
Now either someone gives me actual arguments to explain me how the skill system of h7 can turn out great (= better than any other ones seen so far) either you stop comments like “never mind Galaad”.
Voted I don't like it.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 23, 2015 04:19 PM |
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Galaad said:
When Heroes 7 was first announced, I was thrilled, fulfilled by the most crystalline joy.
I wasn't. I taught to myself - it came so soon after H6. It'll be probably rushed, and very similar. And that was correct. When I looked up on website for Hven units, I saw them almost exactly like H6 counterparts with diferent colour scheme, so....
Galaad said:
Truth is, I really thought after Heroes 6 the franchise was dead at best, or would transform into MMO at worst.
Ummm. Why? H6 sold a lot of copies, AND got decent scores at review sites. For all intended purposes, it wasn't a bad game. You disagree? You probably didn't play REAL bad games. There are games out there, that are unplayable. Where dialogue is missing, where characters can fall through ground and mess up whole gameplay, etc. And even some of THOSE have sequels. Movie licenced games anyone? Only people who realy showed distaste of H6 were old fans ...
Galaad said:
Inevitably, it was not conceivable for me that the “form of a wheel” would have been the only thing in common about it! To me it was obvious it was referring to mechanics.
I'm sorry to burst your buble, but mechanics of H5 do not have anything in common with circular shaped presentation of skill TREE on Celestial Haven. I mean, you could easyly put skills side by side in collums, and not have circle at all.
Galaad said:
HOPES FOR EXPANSIONS! People, what the hell are you thinking??? The game is not even alpha stage (or maybe now it is) and we already think of how to “fix” things in expansions?? Are you for real???
Again I'm sorry. That I am the bringer of this bad news to you, but now it's old ... kinda. Game was in Alpha when you tested it at the event. It will now soon be beta, as Ubi said: "at this point there are not goning to be any big changes to the game." Something like that. Which means, no extra factions / creatures will be added. No skill-wheel changes, no spell changes. It's set in stone - we are only to wait till they reveal stuff. Only changes that will come next will be ... surprise ... in the DLC's/expansions.
Galaad said:
If the core mechanics of the game fails, so will the lifespan.
That is correct. +1  We're talking gampley now. Not silly haridoo of a Vampire. This should be the true focus from the start ... Now I know you're gonna be angry with this ... so chill ... I'm actualy on your side with this m8.
Galaad said:
Now either someone gives me actual arguments to explain me how the skill system of h7 can turn out great
It can't turn out great at this point in time. Like you said it's from the core, and that is true. Now I'm sure someone will see this and Galaad's commen't and be like "Man you don't know snow (Yes I actualy said snow, just for the kicks), this system is the besetestest evurrrr.... " Well All I have to say to you is ... You are wrong. It's only decent. I'm sorry, I can't argue Galaad here, as he is correct.
That is not to say it can't be IMPROVED upon in expansion. It can. But to only realy make it great is to improve core mechanics - and that is removing classes, and bring skill under one bigg wheel. This in turn ofc means reworking Ultimate perks aswell ... but THAT will not happen, as it means reworking the core of it. Not even in expansions, and it is only SLIM chance it'll happen in H8.
Now to H7 skill-tree's defence, I must say, It is NOT BAD! It's quite better than in H6, and from my perspective not that much worse than H5 one. It fixes some issues, but it's biggest downfall is classes, and primary skills with Ultimates. It will have a decent ammount of replayability ... It will not be spectacular by any stretch tho. And for a lot of people, me included ... this is enough.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 23, 2015 10:25 PM |
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Galaad said:
When Heroes 7 was first announced, I was thrilled, fulfilled by the most crystalline joy. Truth is, I really thought after Heroes 6 the franchise was dead at best, or would transform into MMO at worst.
So when I saw new versions of Haven and Academy in the world of Ashan, when I heard statements advertising a skill system which would contain elements from Heroes 5, I probably went too optimistic and overlooked that statement. Inevitably, it was not conceivable for me that the “form of a wheel” would have been the only thing in common about it! To me it was obvious it was referring to mechanics. But no, apparently it wasn’t. I am sick and tired of trying to make the best out of a bad situation, wishing for things to get slightly fixed in expansions etc, no god damn it! A good system which will have decent lifespan is not done by trying to fix a core which is done in the wrong direction. Yes, the wrong direction, I mean, really, is the system based on Heroes 6 the one we all love and cherish? Obviously not! This is crazy, I just can’t take it anymore. I have a feeling too many people here fear for the franchise to die and feel the need to “support” systems which has been PROVEN TO BE BAD. They are NOT going to change this, we will end up with a poor vanilla, hoping for things to get “fixed” in expansions, which WON’T, BECAUSE THE VERY CORE IS MESSED UP. How can you people think we can fix things like that, black magic maybe?
My firm conviction is that for something to be good, it has to be good from the core, and how the hell is a h6 based system good from the core? Please enlighten me, for the love of Heroes. The way I see things, we will have something obviously better than h6 BECAUSE THAT’S REALLY NOT HARD, but h5 will still be unmatched (and I don’t even speak of h3). I know some people at Limbic are trying to do the best they can, but IMHO the best they can do is make something decent, because leveling up is one of the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the game, even if it doesn’t make it all, and I think they are clearly messing it up. I read almost all comments here, and I still didn’t find anything to convince me that it will turn out so good. All I see is compromises and hopes for expansions. HOPES FOR EXPANSIONS! People, what the hell are you thinking??? The game is not even alpha stage (or maybe now it is) and we already think of how to “fix” things in expansions?? Are you for real???
An expansion expands the base game, but the base game has to be good! And no, I am tired of “decent”, this franchise was great before, one of the best -if not the best- and now that we have to opportunity to voice ourselves, all we do is present the red carpet to the people which participated in the horrid Heroes 6 and we have to try keeping positive about the whole thing? BUT HOW THE HELL CAN YOU KEEP POSITIVE?? It is simply not possible to me, no, too many things are messed up. If the core mechanics of the game fails, so will the lifespan.
But when game is out, it will be too late to complain, how can’t you get that?
Now either someone gives me actual arguments to explain me how the skill system of h7 can turn out great (= better than any other ones seen so far) either you stop comments like “never mind Galaad”.
Voted I don't like it.
I may disagree with you on some points with regard to how to best get the message across, but I have to say I'm 100 % behind you with this post. Unlike you, I was sceptic when H7 was first announced, but when they proclaimed they would "take the best of the series" and "we would have a skill wheel like H5" I was genuinely excited. Since then, the balloon has been gradually but steadily deflated. The first killing blow came when they announced that core skill system would be non-random. I guess I should have read the writing on the wall at that point. The line-up votes were a farce. I don't know if they genuinely feel that they are giving us what we want, but when you have Erwan sitting on the other side of the table saying "we can get everything from the old games back, as long as it is transformed to fit into Ashan" (which more or less verbatim was what he said in one of those fan interviews) it's clear that the project was dead from the start.
The ironic part is that they even fail to do what Erwan aims for - he says he likes the art style to be "big, impressive and fantastic in an unrealistic way", and then you look at the town screens and can't help but feel they failed at all those apart from the unrealistic part.
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What will happen now?
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 09:54 AM |
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If you read through the nasty tone of the article, then you'll see that it even contains some useful info. At least all of my questions were answered, though most of the time I did not like the particular answer.
Q: Will there be racial perks outside of the racial skill?
A: No
Q: Will the random system use these non-random skillwheels, or will you be able to fill up your skillwheel with skills from the total skill pool?
A: The class skillwheels will be used.
Q: Will there be starting skills and will these differ per hero or per class?
A: Yes
Q: To be able to increase the rank of a secondary skill from expert to master, do you need an expert perk, or is an extra novice perk sufficient? Similar for the grandmaster perk: do you need the master perk, or can you unlock it by spending an additional skill point in a perk, regardless of its rank (novice, expert or master)?
A: Need rank and perk of previous level, so you'll need expert rank and an expert perk to get to the master level.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 28, 2015 10:20 AM |
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i like the system, i really do, but the more i think about it...
it ain't heroes. Heroes is all about doing what you can with what you have even if what you is not what you want. this means that any skill system needs to be made with randomness in mind. if it doesn't, it ain't heroes. would love to see it in another franchise though.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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ninjata12
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 11:20 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
i like the system, i really do, but the more i think about it...
it ain't heroes. Heroes is all about doing what you can with what you have even if what you is not what you want. this means that any skill system needs to be made with randomness in mind. if it doesn't, it ain't heroes. would love to see it in another franchise though.
You can still choose the random skills option, you just have to play with a certain hero class. It's almost like H3 - there we had random skills, but it was still somehow directed - for example we couldn't get Fire magic with Rampart or Castle heroes. It is the same now, the only difference is that we can see the skillwheel and in H3 it was invisible...
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted April 28, 2015 11:31 AM |
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ninjata12 said:
You can still choose the random skills option, you just have to play with a certain hero class. It's almost like H3 - there we had random skills, but it was still somehow directed - for example we couldn't get Fire magic with Rampart or Castle heroes. It is the same now, the only difference is that we can see the skillwheel and in H3 it was invisible...
Not exactly - you always could learn them from Witch Huts or Scholars on adventure map. Now even this option is gone.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted April 28, 2015 11:38 AM |
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Not just gone. It seemed dangerous. It needed to be eradicated for the sake of consistency with Bullshan lore ("a knight must never sniff Dark magic in Bullshan").
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