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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted May 19, 2016 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 19:34, 19 May 2016.
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Salamandre said:
Imagine the traffic jam now in heaven.
Or hell, according to most religions.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 19, 2016 07:39 PM |
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Well, in Hell any annoyance could be considered as natural, not in Heaven.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted May 19, 2016 07:53 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 19:53, 19 May 2016.
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But in heaven you are in eternal bliss even when in a traffic jam; wouldn't that mean that it is not an annoyance there either?
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 19, 2016 07:56 PM |
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An estimation of 100 billion over 50k years only goes to show how extremely many we're now compared to ever. In 1/10th of a percentage of said period, 7% of those people are alive today.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 20, 2016 11:21 PM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 21, 2016 01:28 AM |
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Damn I should give an update to this thread as well... Not following much recently, it generally depresses me.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 07, 2016 07:54 PM |
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted June 07, 2016 09:33 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Dear dads: this is what rape culture looks like, and you're responsible by Chris Taylor.
On one hand, sure that guys father is also a scumbag. On the other hand, why are the fathers singled out? Imho strong mother figures are much more important when it comes to learning about respecting the opposite sex at least for guys.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 08, 2016 12:38 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
It's getting more and more important to look into rape culture and the effects it has.
And whether it exists in the first place.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 08, 2016 09:43 AM |
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You can call (or not call) it whatever you want. As long as reports of rape are met with questions about the victims dress, alcohol consumption or behavior and these can be used as a viable defense, something is terribly wrong.
fuChris said:
On one hand, sure that guys father is also a scumbag. On the other hand, why are the fathers singled out? Imho strong mother figures are much more important when it comes to learning about respecting the opposite sex at least for guys.
I get what you're saying though I don't agree. The dad i the one who teaches the son how to be a "man" (as it were), not the mom. Dad will have much more influence in bringing up a boy within current cultural landscape.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 08, 2016 10:31 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:33, 08 Jun 2016.
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While rape when defined as forceful sexual act without mutual consent is to be condemned in all cases, the last time I checked there was no official manual how to "correctly" treat women who dress and behave like they want to have sex. So sorry, men have tried, do try and will try to make sexual advances to women who look "welcoming" and there's nothing wrong with that. If a woman doesn't want to be bothered, she might as well look at her own behaviour first.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 08, 2016 10:38 AM |
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The dad is loving his son and will say anything in order to minimize the facts, this is called protecting its family. Also the fact that the girl was found death drunk is not offering a undisputed vision on what really happened.
But from here to suspect dads teaching rape culture to their sons, this is wrong.
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Era II mods and utilities
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 08, 2016 04:33 PM |
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This is the last I will post on the subject in this thread as i have no intention of derailing it any further.
Salamandre said:
But from here to suspect dads teaching rape culture to their sons, this is wrong.
No, because "rape culture" is everywhere and in general done completely unintentional. It's just "the status quo", so to speak and the first step to stopping it is making people aware of its existence, hence the link.
Zenofex said:
If a woman doesn't want to be bothered, she might as well look at her own behaviour first.
Here's the thing, no one other than the woman gets to decide what is appropriate for her to wear and how she acts and while approaching her is one thing, you should never continue beyond that if it's clearly not wanted. Actually, no, only continue if the approach is wanted.
Yes means yes and is the only thing that means yes.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 08, 2016 05:01 PM |
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Rape is a forme of crime, there is no more of a rape culture than a "strangle someone" or "shot someone" culture. In Occident culture.
But the rape can become indeed a cultural aspect, in countries where the woman has less to none rights, this is how you start a rape culture. Coincidentally, those countries where rape is a form of culture, which are the majority of islamic countries, are also the places from where the most immigrants leave toward Europe, where feminists and leftists/liberals will welcome them with arms (and legs) open.
Do you know that under Islamic laws a raped woman needs 4 male witness in order to prove she was raped? Women who allege rape without the benefit of the act having been witnessed by four men (who presumably develop a conscience afterwards) are actually confessing to having sex. If they or the accused happens to be married, then it is considered to be adultery, and is punished by stoning to death.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 08, 2016 05:13 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 19:05, 08 Jun 2016.
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A quote from RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network) which is America’s largest and most influential anti-sexual-violence organization:
In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campus. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important not to lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 08, 2016 05:15 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Here's the thing, no one other than the woman gets to decide what is appropriate for her to wear and how she acts
And this is where your logic fails. You hastily and full of prejudice go to the extent of accusing men for their misbehavior while keeping women behind of an untouchable barrier that no one should try to contest. That's bullsnow and the wrong kind of feminist equality I've come to hate. What I see is how both sides have their own share of culpability and that's the reasonable stance to take. Anything else is bias.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 08, 2016 05:21 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Here's the thing, no one other than the woman gets to decide what is appropriate for her to wear
In an ideal world, but that's not the world we live in. Here society has a great saying in what is appropriate and what isn't, with some things (otherwise harmless) deemed so inappropriate that there are laws against it. Dress the wrong way and be at the wrong place the wrong time and you could e.g. risk the police taking you in for questioning, claiming you were trying to prostitute yourself, telling you you'd have to be extremely naive if you didn't know walking down "that street" with "those clothes" at "that time" didn't mean anything..
Obv. no one should be assaulted, but similar to how a small guy is more likely to be targeted by a bully who wishes an easy target, a women walking alone in a dangerous neighborhood would be in higher risk of getting assaulted too, but for different reasons. I think the question is more along the line of what is reasonable to expect.. if someone bungee jumps off a cliff and gets hurt no one would question there was a risk to what he did, and it'd be different than if a plane crashed on his house while he was home watching TV.
But it's never one thing, it's not the clothes alone, you could be naked at a beach without much risk, at least where I'm from. You could be in a dangerous neighborhood without much risk.. but if you combine enough factors, in the end you're playing with fire, and it obv. shouldn't be like that, but there are dangers in this world, and it's better to adapt to those dangers and try to deal with them, than to ignore they exist to such a degree that you risk exposing yourself to harm.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 08, 2016 07:23 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Here's the thing, no one other than the woman gets to decide what is appropriate for her to wear and how she acts and while approaching her is one thing, you should never continue beyond that if it's clearly not wanted. Actually, no, only continue if the approach is wanted.
Yes means yes and is the only thing that means yes.
She has full right to decide what to wear and I have full right to interpret that the way I see fit and act the way I want, as long as I don't do something offensive (including illegal). What gender are you anyway? Maybe in Sweden women start flirting with men, buy them drinks and then drive them home but in the rest of the world usually the men are expected to take the initiative - and frankly I don't see how they will do that in your world, unless women wave neon signs "I want to have sex with YOU" in the respective direction.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 01:39 AM |
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First of all, how a woman dresses and how she acts towards a specific male are very different subjects to analyze. A woman can dress "suggestive" simply because the weather is too hot or indeed because she wants to feel sexy or directly to impress a man. Nothing suggests she is doing that for a rapist who uses the "but look at the way she is dressed" argument though, so let's please get that out of the way.
If it is the question of sending out the wrong signals by the way she acts, and then crying out rape despite some culpability, I will emphasize that sexual harassment and rape are things on a different level. No matter how you interpret some "signals" prior to a rape, it is safe to say a woman will make sure you interpreted them wrong if you are forcing yourself to her despite her will. A woman can first act flirtatious and then suddenly change her mind. She may be undecisive (they really are quite often), she may also be a twisted personality who enjoys toying with men. That certainly still doesn't justify rape. But what about this thing called sexual harassment? I partly agree with Zenofex, that it is sometimes a messed up situation when sociologically men are expected to take the initiative, yet if things turn out sour, it's suddenly labeled as sexual harassment. Usually, a man with common sense will easily realize that he's in the harassment zone and step back, and when he does, the woman won't make a big deal out of it. But things don't always go as usual and there are people who lack common sense.
At that point we have (Ohforf's) argument of "not talking about what is ideally justified but talking about what to reasonably expect" which I find quite misplaced. Let's say a friend of yours left the door of his car unlocked and it got stolen. As his friend, it is very natural for you to tell him "dude, you left the car unlocked, what on earth did you expect!" But let's also say the thief got caught and is brought to court. He looks up at the judge and says "your honor, the guy left his car unlocked, what did he think was going to happen?" Should the judge give him a reduced sentence? The answer is certainly no. The line between aggressive flirting and harassment can be a grey area and to identify what is which can be harder than applying property law. But the thing is, as much as social norms shape laws, in the long term, the laws also transform social norms and the law giving priority to women's right is not actually a bad thing considering the fact that our social norms feed from a very patriarchal heritage, even in the most egalitarian countries. In sophisticated cases where no one is to blame within an obvious grasp, as men, our empathy instinctively works for the men first, even if we wouldn't do the same thing, we understand why the guy did what he did. But the law shouldn't work that way. When the context is not feminism which some can be reactionary to, but Muslim refugees harassing women because of their social norms, everyone seems to agree with that. The difference is not qualitative but rather quantitative.
@Sal
The information about 4 witnesses is incomplete. In sharia law, the punishment for adultery and prostitution (sex without marriage) is getting beaten with a stick a 100 times. In theory, both for men and women, although historically men always get away with it because of social acceptance. But to execute the punishment, you must bring four witnesses. I guess, back in those days, this was thought of as a measure to prevent jealous people from constantly accusing each other of adultery.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 09, 2016 07:23 AM |
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Well, that's the thing really, women ARE indecisive and can switch from suggestive to ignoring and the other way around quite fast but you never really know what they want in advance. Some adhere to the philosophy that a man is not worth the attention if he doesn't try hard to draw their attention and play disinterested or even downright abusive while in fact they run their evaluation in the background with possibly very different results. Some expect to be impressed and wait for a man to hit the right spot - which may take a while if they don't get bored or annoyed before that. Some have no idea how to "handle" men and just act randomly until their impressions crystallize. And so on. In none of these cases the flirt should reach the level of sexual abuse but frankly the twisted concept that women are unconditional victims and bear no responsibility to reduce the chance of unwanted behaviour is over the top. You go to the bar half naked, skirt barely covering your panties, neckline exposing everything but your nipples and whatever remaining clothes specifically chosen to show the shape of your figure and expect that only well-mannered gentlemen will want to "get acquainted" with you is simply daft. That's not how it works on a basic biological level.
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This thread is pages long: 
