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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2016 06:49 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 06:50 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:55, 09 Jun 2016.
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@Gryphs
Really, they even make movies about it.
@Stevie
If you're fighting a temptation to rape on a daily basis, that means there is something wrong with you, not the women who allegedly tempts you. When a woman says no, even during fooling around, for a normal man, it's quite a turn off. You don't go berserk, you feel depressed at most. So, what it strengthens is not the argument you have on your mind.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted June 09, 2016 06:59 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 18:59, 09 Jun 2016.
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artu said:
@Gryphs
Really, they even make movies about it.
But what does this have to do with a culture of rape? If anything the fact such acts disgust us show us we have been raised in a culture that does not encourage such foul behaviour.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 07:07 PM |
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I agree with Corribus and Sal that defining things as "culture of rape" is an overstatement. What kiryu is talking about is this though, Western societies also come from a patriarchal heritage and to excuse the rapist if the woman raped is seen as wanton, loose, "asking for it",whatever you call it, is not exactly singled out to non-western societies. Just do a little research on the laws of modern societies about such things even during the early 20th century and you'll have a lot on your plate.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 09, 2016 07:15 PM |
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Gryphs said:
But what does this have to do with a culture of rape? If anything the fact such acts disgust us show us we have been raised in a culture that does not encourage such foul behaviour.
And this is how we spiral back to the case of Brock turner, someone who felt he was justified in raping an unconscious(!) woman and whose act is being defended because "she shouldn't have drunk as much alcohol" or "the prison sentence will have a negative impact on his athletic career" (which helped him get a reduced sentence).
Maybe calling it "rape culture" is an overstatement but what it is called is irrelevant as there is still a serious problem that exists and needs addressing.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted June 09, 2016 07:20 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 19:24, 09 Jun 2016.
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artu said:
I agree with Corribus and Sal that defining things as "culture of rape" is an overstatement. What kiryu is talking about is this though, Western societies also come from a patriarchal heritage and to excuse the rapist if the woman raped is seen as wanton, loose, "asking for it",whatever you call it, is not exactly singled out to non-western societies.
What does non western society have to do with my point? Yes, Western society came from patriarchal roots but does not operate on these principles anymore.
artu said:
Just do a little research on the laws of modern societies about such things even during the early 20th century and you'll have a lot on your plate.
In the early 20th century women did not have the right to vote so why would I expect laws regarding rape to be much better, I am talking solely about modern society. Show me a modern case where a rapist was not punished in Western society because the woman was "asking for it".
kiryu133 said:
Maybe calling it "rape culture" is an overstatement but what it is called is irrelevant as there is still a serious problem that exists and needs addressing.
I doubt this problem will be fixed as a$$holes will always exist.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2016 07:20 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:23, 09 Jun 2016.
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artu said:
@Stevie
If you're fighting a temptation to rape on a daily basis, that means there is something wrong with you, not the women who allegedly tempts you. When a woman says no, even during fooling around, for a normal man, it's quite a turn off. You don't go berserk, you feel depressed at most. So, what it strengthens is not the argument you have on your mind.
What I'm fighting on a daily basis is what every normal 23 year old bag of hormones does, their libido. That can lead to self satisfaction, consented sex or rape. Therefore I deny the argument that rape is simply about power, that sounds ridiculously off to me. If you're telling me that a guy gets an erection based on his infatuation with his power over the meak and not because he's legitimately aroused at the basic level then I guess there's no common ground to be had in this argument.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted June 09, 2016 07:37 PM |
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*Cough!*
*Catholic Church*
*Cough!*
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 07:47 PM |
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gryphs said:
What does non western society have to do with my point? Yes, Western society came from patriarchal roots but does not operate on these principles anymore
Well, you specified it by saying you have never seen this in Western society anymore, implying "it may exist else where but not there" so my answer was, things are not that ideal even in there. Especially when it comes to social norms in traditional small towns etc, rather than the court of law. But they always affect each other since the law is executed by people who are affected by their cultural roots. Social norms don't change overnight, they slowly transform over generations. Western societies are certainly much more progressive about this but they are not some perfect utopia where these norms are just a thing of the past. You ask for examples, here's one among many you can Google.
Link
Stevie said:
What I'm fighting on a daily basis is what every normal 23 year old bag of hormones does, their libido. That can lead to self satisfaction, consented sex or rape
Really, it didn't sound like self satisfaction or consensual sex when you said:
Quote:
I deal with temptation on a daily basis and I can attest that I was once at the point of losing myself to it had someone else not intervened.
I wouldn't assume anybody would intervene if you were trying to just jerk off. Let me put it in your terms, it is your responsibility not to get tempted, not the woman's to not "tempt" you. It's really as simple as that. Also, keep in mind that feeling so passionate like you were almost going to rape someone and actually raping someone are very different experiences. You wouldn't keep on feeling aroused when someone is literally screaming and crying right under you unless you had some other motive than plain sex. People who do, have some other motivations besides those hormones.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted June 09, 2016 08:00 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 20:05, 09 Jun 2016.
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artu said:
Well, you specified it by saying you have never seen this in Western society anymore, implying "it may exist else where but not there" so my answer was, things are not that ideal even in there. Especially when it comes to social norms in traditional small towns etc, rather than the court of law. But they always affect each other since the law is executed by people who are affected by their cultural roots. Social norms don't change overnight, they slowly transform over generations. Western societies are certainly much more progressive about this but they are not some perfect utopia where these norms are just a thing of the past. You ask for examples, here's one among many you can Google.
Link
I have not seen it; however, I do not deny that in some dump in the Bible Belt that that may happen. That, in of itself, does not mean that Western society as a whole is complicit to rape. In that case the man was still convicted, as disgusting as the ruling may ultimately be, it was still acknowledged as rape. Also the case was retried. I want an example of a rapist in modern society being not punished at all for his crime.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 08:05 PM |
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Something that radical is not what people are complaining about. You want an overwhelmingly extreme example, that's not the point.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2016 08:16 PM |
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Stevie said:
Bullsnow. I deal with temptation on a daily basis and ... It's not a fairy tale by any stretch.
The fairy tale isn't temptation. The fairy tale is that TEMPTATION makes you rape someone. If it was so, we would have to be chemically controlled - after all, "temptation" is QUITE subjective: there are people who are tempted by "innocent" looks and turned off by "snowty" looks. There are those who are especially tempted, the more things are hidden. And so on. The fairy tale is that men "are losing it" if enough naked flesh is flashed - female or otherwise, mind you, since it seems that rape happens on a regular basis in jail.
It's - as artu says - a POWER thing.
But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is more or less about the fact that "no" is still considered "not enough" provided there is an excuse like "temptation".
Men have to learn to say no as well.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted June 09, 2016 08:17 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 20:18, 09 Jun 2016.
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artu said:
Something that radical is not what people are complaining about. You want an overwhelmingly extreme example, that's not the point.
Then Western society as a whole is not complicit to rape.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 09, 2016 08:36 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Men have to learn to say no as well.
I don't think it has anything with saying yes/no. Some people would like to live in a world that does not exist. Rape/crime will never go away and the only thing women/victims can do is protect themselves as best they can.
If you think it is acceptable to drink copious amounts of alcohol until you choke death, surrounded by strangers and not accept any of the risks associated with that then you see only one side of the coin.
The fact that he is doing 6 months and not 60 years jail time is changing nothing. In USA jail times are 10 x superior to Europe, then there is death penalty, yet they still have one of the highest criminality in the world. The only thing to conclude from this, in my opinion, is that you need to protect your self from predators, because they are not going to vanish any soon. You need to take care, whatever you do and wherever you do it.
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 08:38 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:39, 09 Jun 2016.
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Gryphs said:
artu said:
Something that radical is not what people are complaining about. You want an overwhelmingly extreme example, that's not the point.
Then Western society as a whole is not complicit to rape.
Of course not. No society is "complicit to rape" as a whole. It's a very violent act. Every patriarchal society has a tendency to excuse rape under some circumstances though. That tendency is mostly archaic in the West, but not completely archaic.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted June 09, 2016 08:53 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 21:14, 09 Jun 2016.
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And I agree with you. What I am trying to say is that in Western society rape is recognized as rape no matter how much the said judge "sympathizes". The rapist is still put on the sex offenders list and punished. I am disgusted by the leniency and excuses, but if the judge can be forced to offer an apology and have the case retried I would not call it a societal trend. Sure things have a ways to go; however, it is far better than places where a rapist could walk without any penalty or worse the victim could be punished.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2016 09:29 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
Men have to learn to say no as well.
I don't think it has anything with saying yes/no. Some people would like to live in a world that does not exist. Rape/crime will never go away and the only thing women/victims can do is protect themselves as best they can.
If you think it is acceptable to drink copious amounts of alcohol until you choke death, surrounded by strangers and not accept any of the risks associated with that then you see only one side of the coin.
The fact that he is doing 6 months and not 60 years jail time is changing nothing. In USA jail times are 10 x superior to Europe, then there is death penalty, yet they still have one of the highest criminality in the world. The only thing to conclude from this, in my opinion, is that you need to protect your self from predators, because they are not going to vanish any soon. You need to take care, whatever you do and wherever you do it.
This has all been said a lot - rape and crime will always exist no matter how much potential victims are protecting themselves. That is demonstrated by the second and over thousands of years: look at what happens in muslimic countries.
We have laws and a society PRECISELY because we are not supposed to protect OURSELVES AND OUR RIGHTS - and that would be being armed to the teeth and kill every guy laying a hand on you if you don't want it. Why would women COWER in fear just because they do what is their right?
Double standards - MEN aren't told to protect themselves by keeping a low profile, right? How come? Weapons are a big equalizer.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 09, 2016 09:48 PM |
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The laws only punish, they do not prevent. Most problems come from people interacting each other, and there will not be a police agent behind you every time a person you trust or is indifferent, suddenly threats you.
And yes, men are stronger so they need less to protect themselves, although a weaker men will always be in danger from a stronger men, is only a balance of power. The fact that men are stronger gives them a certain advantage, but on the other side, they will be sacrificed for protecting the weaker, in times of war. People often omit this detail to lightly.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2016 10:40 PM |
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You know, I really feel like offending you ... you are really tempting me with this mix of ignorance, arrogance and thoughtless chauvinism, and I'm certain there are a lot of people who'd agree with me that you are provoking an offensive answer because you are begging for it - but still I'd be punished by the moderators, and still I can chose to simply ignore you, full well knowing that a couple of letters won't change a lot.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 09, 2016 11:05 PM |
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I don't expect you to get the sense, as the last time when men, as a social movement, protested in Germany against their women being raped -after the Cologne events, hypocrite feminists and other brave snj like some here cried to racism and fascism, then the police jailed those men. Those nice laws you praise there, they protect who?
And I don't care if Pegida is an extreme right organization, as long as a broken clock gives twice a day the correct time, Pegida was right this time and it was the only thing to do.
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This thread is pages long: 
