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JollyJoker
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posted June 09, 2016 11:32 AM |
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Too many words on a simple subject.
As soon as there is "NO", it means STOP! And it doesn't matter what happened until then.
Rape is a special case of a combination of burglary and aggravated assault: suppose you have an interst in looking into nice houses. If you see one with the door ajar, it's not wrong to go there, ring the bell and ask whether that door means you are invited to come in.
No means NO, however, whether the door is ajar or even wide open.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 09, 2016 02:58 PM |
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Absolutely 100%, JJ.
Yet, it's still a fair question to ask whether you would have still been robbed if you had left the door closed and locked. In criminology there is an interest in understanding why crimes happen, even with the universal acknowledgment that crimes are wrong. This does not mean victims are being blamed. Understanding the psychological motivation behind crimes can assist in better prevention strategies.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 09, 2016 03:20 PM |
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Quote:
As soon as there is "NO", it means STOP! And it doesn't matter what happened until then.
I think you are arbitrarily mixing what should happen (or not happen) and what does (not) happen. Nobody from the existing audience would encourage or justify a rape or even milder sexual offense, or at least that's how it seems. Problem is, there are many other people out there and some of them don't have scruples. If you go the "lalalalala I don't hear you" route about them, you're ignoring a potential trouble, if you openly provoke them - whether consciously or not - you are accelerating the escalation of that trouble. If you're asking if a woman should consider all the scumbags in the world when she decides how to dress and behave, the answer is yes - she should. Unless she's very good at defending herself. Robbery is wrong in all cases, leaving your front door unlocked in a potentially dangerous neighbourhood is irresponsible and stupid - it's more or less that. Women aren't some half-conscious, super-delicate pets which need to be cuddled and taken care of and defended in each and every case, they can take responsibility for their actions.
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Stevie
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posted June 09, 2016 03:33 PM |
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 09, 2016 03:49 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 15:56, 09 Jun 2016.
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Stevie said:
Basically condemn the rape but also the encouragement. Men usually don't wanna be given expectations and suggestive signals just for fun.
Nope, you do not condemn provocative behavior the same way you condemn rape. I am sure you don't mean it like that but just wanted to clarify.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 09, 2016 03:59 PM |
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@ Corribus
Yes, I agree. There is something like a threshold for every crime that has to do with the general and individual willingness of committing it, which in turn is clearly influenced by the general behaviour codex of a certain society. For example, in our society, tax evasion as a crime has a very low threshold and a very high willingness to commit, with society generally not having a problem with that - unless you are rich, that is. Soft, but still illegal drugs are another thing. With rape, one problem is, that the threshold will be all the lower, the lower the general esteem for women in general is with certain groups.
@ Zenofex
If you read the above, then it should be clear your point is non-existent. Suppose the following situation. A girl is partying in a disco and reacts positive to the signals of a guy. They have fun, there is kissing and so on, and there is a general agreement to end the evening, doing it. However, sometime along the line the girl reconsiders - say, the guy is too rough for her liking or the smell turns her off or whatever. At this point a NO is STILL a NO, even though there early had been an agreement, unspoken or otherwise, to go the full way.
Now, sure, the more tempting you make things for potential or actual wrongdoers, the higher the personal risk to become a victim. STILL, if something happens, you are the VICTIM, because what people did was STILL a crime. Being scantily clad is something that shouldn't be a problem, and even being provocative shouldn't be one - you don't have a right to expect a girl to be forthcoming.
@ Stevie
There is no encouragement of being raped. I mean, if there is a Ferrari parked, keys in the ignition, if you are not the owner, you cannot get in and simply drive away with it, claiming you was tempted and the guy leaving the key in should be punished. I mean, the idea of a shop window is too tempt people into getting in and buying something for the price asked, not smashing it in and steal the stuff. And if you don't have enough money you can't take it by force, claiming you were provoked and temnpted.
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Stevie
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posted June 09, 2016 04:08 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
@ Stevie
There is no encouragement of being raped.
There absolutely is, it's called temptation. Just read this experience I found on some website and compare it to your Ferrari analogy.
Quote:
I Cant Stop Thinking About My Rape
I Ended Up Enjoying Being Raped.... I know the title probably throws most readers off and ****** off the ones whose rape was traumatizing. Normally, people think of rape as a bad thing, invasion of privacy, having their innocence stolen etc… I really didn’t think of it that way. I actually enjoyed it… A LOT. I’m not going to lie and say I wasn’t scared and I wanted it to happen. No one wishes that part upon themselves. However, after it was all over, it turned out to be one of the best sexual experiences of my life and I actually want to thank the man who raped me. Weird… I know. I’m not telling this story to shame or put down others who are still traumatized by their rape experience. I’m simply here to tell my story just like everyone else.
Here’s my story….
I was 21 years old living by myself doing the usual. Work, school, work, school (wash, rinse, repeat type lifestyle). I had just got out of a relationship with my high school sweetheart. We wanted different things and decided to call it quits. After the breakup, I felt like a zombie. Aside from work, school, and homework, I had no life. I felt like Jim Carey’s character in Yes! Man. One night I decided to go out to the bar down the street from my house where I met “him.” It was the typical “let me buy you a drink” and “I think you’re beautiful” etc… I wasn’t really looking to date anyone considering my recent breakup. However, the human interaction and someone else paying attention to me after all these years of the same person was oddly refreshing so I played along with it. I figured I could reject him right before close and we’d go our separate ways. No harm, no foul type deal. He was a very sexy man. Black spiked hair, tattoos, big muscles, hazel eyes… Although given his flawless physique, I wasn’t ready for any of that.
They announced last call and I tried to play it off like I didn’t realize it was that late. “OMG! I didn’t know it was so late! I have class in the morning. I’m sorry, but I have to go!” He tried to talk me into going back to his place for a nightcap and I told him no, just as I had planned.
I could see a rush of anger come across his face that scared me a little bit. However, it quickly subsided and was followed by a sweet smile. “That’s fine, can I at least walk you home?”
I figured that would be fine, so I told him yes. He decided to go out the back door of the bar to avoid the crowd going out the front. We start heading out the back door and he grabs me and covers my mouth, and puts me in his car. He pointed a gun at me and said if I tried to run, he would shoot me.
I was scared at this point because I thought he just wanted to kill me.
It seemed like it took forever to stop. The whole ride, he pointed that gun at me and was telling me how beautiful I was and how much of a tease I was.
When we stopped, it was at a tool shed that stood next to a house. He shoved me into the shed with force and I asked why he didn’t take me in the house. He announced that his wife was asleep in there. I then realized he had a secret life that his wife didn’t even know. There was a mattress in the shed and I realized he must do this often.
I was scared. My knees were shaking and tears were rolling down my face.
I tried to run towards the door but he grabbed me and twisted my arm and called me a *****.
“You’re not going anywhere, you little *****! I’ll teach you to tease men and leave them hanging!”
He raped me for 3 hours straight. In that 3 hours, he made me suck his **** to where I was choking on it, made me play with myself and stick random objects in my *****, I was slapped, bitten, punched, thrown around, hair pulled and pounded. His **** was way bigger than I was used to and it hurt really badly. He was not gentle at all.
Sounds like a horrible time, right? It was the single greatest sexual experience of my life! I learned that day that I like being submissive in bed. I climaxed over 10 times during the 3 hours he had his way with me. My norm was once… maybe twice if I was lucky. I’m not going to lie, I tried to fight and get away. I screamed no and stop, and although I legitimately wanted to get away, it got me off that I couldn’t.
Afterwards, I was so weak from fighting and hoarse from screaming. I was just laying there while he sat in a chair and enjoyed a cigarette.
“Can I have one? I could use it.”
He didn’t say a word, just lit one and handed it to me. The cigarette was very satisfying after the whole ordeal and we just sat there in silence smoking and reflecting.
“I’ll take you home in a minute.”
At that moment, I think we shared a mutual feeling and he just knew I wasn’t going to turn him in. It was like we had been out on a regular date, did our nightcap and he took me home.
As I was getting out of the car, I kissed him on the cheek and thanked him.
I never saw him again although I wished I would. He awakened a whole new person within me that might have stayed dormant otherwise.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Zenofex
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posted June 09, 2016 04:10 PM |
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Obviously I'm not talking about a situation when both have initially felt some attraction or whatever but when a woman deliberately dresses provocatively and starts being targeted by all sorts of "admirers", some with less than gentle intentions. Which is very far from nonexistent.
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Salamandre
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posted June 09, 2016 04:14 PM |
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You put on same level greed for house or car, with the most addictive, primitive, barbaric and enigmatic at once instinct of all living beings, the sexual instinct.
Beside, I think that other than firmly condemning that guy behavior, one should also seriously talk about how is ok to educate your girl to the point she falls dead drunk in a party.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 04:29 PM |
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Being tempted or aroused does not justify rape or victim blaming. Temptation is not something to condemn as a crime such as rape. That is an obnoxious symmetry. (And certainly a blog, which is most probably fake and a male fantasy, claiming "she liked being raped" does not change this a bit.)
Sal said:
You put on same level greed for house or car, with the most addictive, primitive, barbaric and enigmatic at once instinct of all living beings, the sexual instinct.
Actually almost all psychologists agree that rape is usually not about being sexually aroused. It's not like when men see a piece of leg or breast, they have this irresistable urge to have sex. If that would be the case, beach parties where everybody walks around in bikinis would produce a dozen rape cases an hour and Islamic theocracies where women dress fully covered would have almost no rape cases. But it isn't so, is it? Guess why, because rape usually occurs when a frustrated man decides to prove his manhood to himself and to the woman who he may think, is toying with him, it's an act of desperation. Most rape cases are domestic. Rather than sexual desire, it's about saying "I'll show you who's the boss, now."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted June 09, 2016 04:48 PM |
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artu said:
psychologists
Psychologists, the same ones who advice chemical castration to prevent rape, often in return for reduced sentences? Lets re-talk about this the day when psychologists say something irrefutable. 
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Stevie
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posted June 09, 2016 04:52 PM |
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I haven't seen anyone in this thread justifying rape in any shape or form, but people keep providing rebuttals as if they did. What I see is people sensible enough to recognize temptation as one of the factors leading to rape.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 04:53 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:54, 09 Jun 2016.
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@Sal
You may not have the most optimistic view about the profession but this is certainly something they got right. Just examine the details of rape incidents yourself, it is very easy to realize that the real hunger is for control. Or I can throw some Oscar Wilde at you
“Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power.”
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Salamandre
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posted June 09, 2016 05:08 PM |
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We are mammals, artu. Mammals with a conscience, ok, but this conscience certainly didn't erase our primitive instincts. Sex in nature is not about power, procreation is the nature cycling itself in order to survive, properly set up within chemical effects.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 05:22 PM |
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Rape is about power, not sex. (the Wilde quote was a tongue in cheek).
Rape is about power, not sex by Jili Filipovic
"Rapists don't rape because they can't "get" sex elsewhere. Rapists don't rape because they're uncontrollably turned on by the sight of some cleavage, or a midriff, or red lipstick, or an ankle. They rape because they're misogynist sadists, and they flourish in places where misogyny is justified as tradition and maleness comes with a presumption of violence."
Sexual Assault Prevehtion and Awarness Center, University of Michigan:
Myth: Rape is caused by the perpetrator’s uncontrollable sexual urge.
Fact: Rape is an act of power and control, not sex.
Causes of sexual violonce
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted June 09, 2016 05:52 PM |
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I'd like to add something to artu's posts which I fully support.
If you think about it, excusing, justifying or even explaining rape with "temptation" suggests that as a species men can be "tempted" so much so that they completely lose themselves and are unable to control their urges.
Really? But if that was true, the prophet was right, because every woman had to cover herself as much as possible - temptation is, after all, something completely subjective, and the moslems seem to think, that flashing your hair may just be enough of a temptation already.
Of course that's bull: in OUR society of today you'd simnply say, there is no place in it for people who cannot control their primal instincts. It's what we expect, after all, when it comes to the other primal instinct as well: we expect people to control their fear and fight in a war, police, go into a burning house and so on. It's necessary for a society to function.
Also - think about srip clubs or lapdance. Everyone fully expects customers NOT to lose it in there and attack the women, just they gyrate like mad more or less naked.
Temptation is just a fairy tale that is kept up.
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Stevie
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posted June 09, 2016 05:57 PM |
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Bullsnow. I deal with temptation on a daily basis and I can attest that I was once at the point of losing myself to it had someone else not intervened. It's not a fairy tale by any stretch. And again, no one is justifying rape here so drop the red herring for snow's sake.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 09, 2016 06:07 PM |
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Giving yourself as an example of a potential rapist hardly changes the psychological dynamics behind it.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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kiryu133
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Highly illogical
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posted June 09, 2016 06:20 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 18:21, 09 Jun 2016.
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If anyone is wondering I share sentiments with JJ and Artu (Adding that "yes means yes" is just as important as "no means no". also, yay, some more articles! Thread is salvageable!  )
Stevie said:
I haven't seen anyone in this thread justifying rape in any shape or form, but people keep providing rebuttals as if they did. What I see is people sensible enough to recognize temptation as one of the factors leading to rape.
You are misinterpreting what I (and some others) am saying and I would appreciate it if you could understand my arguments before trying to rebut them. No one is saying anyone is justifying rape. What I am saying is that some behavior (usually seen as "normal" and as such done subconsciously) aid in making these acts seem more trivial and as such helps create a culture where people might see the act itself as justified not to mention making attitudes around it more lax and on it goes.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted June 09, 2016 06:39 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
a culture where people might see the act itself as justified not to mention making attitudes around it more lax and on it goes.
I have never viewed this in modern, western society.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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This thread is pages long: 
