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artu
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posted January 26, 2021 07:17 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Philosophically, yes, it is binary. Either the course of my life is determined or not.
Not necessarily, it can be determined to a degree, you are born into social norms with a genetic heritage and your brain chemistry works in a certain way. Those sure determine A LOT. Yet, it doesnt have to mean that every single choice you make is completely fabricated before you make it. That’s why he mentions “hard determinism” which specificly claims that. Yet, accepting a lot of our character is determined by external factors may not mean free will is completely non existent and we are puppets of the universe.
Of course, you also have neurologists explaining that when you are under the impression of making a decision, your brain had already made it some miliseconds ago. (They can measure that by scanning it.) But this must be rather about momentarily decisions and not things that you think through carefully because I dont see how that can happen if you, for instance, decide to marry someone after thinking about it for a month.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 26, 2021 07:17 PM |
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Look, "if they don't buy meat" is not on the same page as "and they don't want their children to eat meat".
They can make sure that the kid doesn't eat meat AT HOME (their home, their rules), but they SHOULDN'T forbid the kid to eat meat the kid is buying with their allowance or is served elsewhere (it they want to taste it).
Because it's not against the law to eat meat and forbidding it falls into the same category than not listening to certain music, not wearing certain clothes, not speaking with certain persons, not praying to certain gods and so on and so forth.
Rebellious phases are the most natural thing in the world, because kids have to step out of the shadow of their parents at some time. They need to make their own experiences and test the water. They need to become themselves and hopefully the education has prepared them to do just that.
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 26, 2021 07:26 PM |
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That's just a loophole way of putting it. They can buy it with an allowance that they got from their parents but the parents don't have to buy it for them directly. It's all coming from the same wallet, lol.
I'm not promoting one way or another what the parents should do. I'm just pointing out that you can have a house rule - something that isn't followed or needs to be followed universally - and children and even older children will still likely follow that rule if it is something that is followed consistently and if the parents haven't lost respect. Replace "meat " with "soda" if you want. Children in vegetarian homes often grow up and continue to be vegetarian. Children that grow up eating crap often continue to eat crap, but this isn't necessarily because they want to. It's because crap food has addictive properties.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 26, 2021 07:40 PM |
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@ artu
I tend to the opinion that the whole problem is based on calling it "free will", because that conveys the wrong impression. In reality no will is ever free, because no mind can know all consequences of a decision. So a decision is always subjective and based on assumptions, uncertainties ... subjective things.
But that isn't the actual question. The question is whether things are determined or not. Not whether the will is free. "Determined" means that no matter what, everything has already been decided (not necessarily by an outside force), 100%.
Determinism has no place for probabilities. Now think about Two-Face. For every important decision he throws a coin - 50/50. I think that the determinism ship sinks before leaving harbor, since their is just no way to determine the comsequences of a continous 50/50 decision making process. Call Two-Face a slave of chance with an unfree will - but you could also argue that he lends his capability to exert free will to chance.
No determinism does it for me.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 26, 2021 07:49 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
That's just a loophole way of putting it. They can buy it with an allowance that they got from their parents but the parents don't have to buy it for them directly. It's all coming from the same wallet, lol.
I'm not promoting one way or another what the parents should do. I'm just pointing out that you can have a house rule - something that isn't followed or needs to be followed universally - and children and even older children will still likely follow that rule if it is something that is followed consistently and if the parents haven't lost respect. Replace "meat " with "soda" if you want. Children in vegetarian homes often grow up and continue to be vegetarian. Children that grow up eating crap often continue to eat crap, but this isn't necessarily because they want to. It's because crap food has addictive properties.
It's not a loophole, it's the difference between self-responsibilty and informed decision-making as opposed to following enforced universal rules.
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 27, 2021 12:20 PM |
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Yeah, self-responsibility, but parents make rules and not every rule in every house is identical. There was a girl - stereotypically "tough Asian" parents - who couldn't even have friends over at the house. Might sound super anal to almost everybody else, but that girl grew up stable and performing solos at concerts around the world.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 27, 2021 12:47 PM |
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Let me repeat, a HOUSE rule is a HOUSE rule. It's pretty obvious it works that way, considering that usually children eat what their parents cook (parents don't cook extra food for children, except when they are sick or have health problems requiring a special diet). Or listening to LOUD music, aggravating everyone would be clearly forbidden, and so on.
House rules are something individual and personal. There are a ton of house rules I probably wouldn't like, but if it's legal and doesn't hurt the children, it's all within parents' rights.
House rules don't NEED an explanantion. My house, my rules. However, if as parents you want your children to follow your house rules when they are outside the house as well, you better explain the rules and leave it to the children whether to follow them or not, make their own experiences and grasp the sense of the rules.
Some rules are arbitrary. Vegetarian food is an arbitrary rule. So house rule, no meat, fine. Explanation: we are against animals being enslaved and tortured for us to eat them, when it's absolutely unnecessary and also hurts the environment, indirectly.
There are other comparable rules, say, we don't buy and wear clothes made in countries X and Y because they are made by children earning a nickel for it.
These are rules with an ethical background, but since the situation won't change depending on the little prince or princess spending their allowance on burgers or cheap T-Shirts it doesn't hurt to leave it to them until they are old anough to understand the ethical reasons behind the decision and act accordingly - or not.
Generally, I'd say all strictest rules are crap. I mean, sure, no sweets is fine, considering health, but it's also torture considering they are everywhere, on every birthday and each festivity, they are given as freebies, everyone likes them and cocoa makes happy.
Add to that the fact than mommy and daddy certainly have other vices that are not healthy either - smoke, drink, eat junk food, drive a car with a crappy mpg ration, whatever, and you are on thin ice.
Still, HOUSE rule, no sweets are bought is fine, but, hey, allowances are free to spend, presents are presents and in other houses are other rules.
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 27, 2021 02:01 PM |
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Not being allowed to wear yellow socks on Tuesdays between 8 and 10 is arbitrary. None of the examples I've given are arbitrary. Most people might not bother having those rules but it's not even close to the same thing as being arbitrary.
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artu
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posted January 27, 2021 02:47 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:48, 27 Jan 2021.
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JollyJoker said:
Determinism has no place for probabilities.
It’s traditionally used that way, yes, Enlightenment period mechical determinism usually indicates an unbroken chain of events that are determined with zero randomness. However, when it comes to behavioral patterns, since he mentions “hard determinism” that tells us, there is also a lighter version.
Btw, how old a kid are you guys talking about, 8 or 16? It’s not quite the same. Watching television is also not illegal but there are parents who forbid it up to a certain age. A lot of things that are considered normal can be forbidden by a group of parents who consider them immoral, sin, unhealthy, harmful, etc. But after a certain age, they simply cant control it even if they want to anyhow, at least outside the house.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 27, 2021 03:48 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
Not being allowed to wear yellow socks on Tuesday's between 8 and 10 is arbitrary. None of the examples I've given are arbitrary. Most people might not bother having those rules but it's not even close to the same thing as being arbitrary.
Arbitrary might be the wrong word, but what is forbidden isn't illegal AND isn't disadvantageous for the child, so it's an entirely subjective personal preference of the parents, and with regard to the child it's therefore on the same level as the example you gave for arbitrary. FOR THE CHILD, it's the same thing.
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 27, 2021 04:32 PM |
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There are many advantages to various house rules that children are later glad that their parents imposed on them (and sometimes not glad), even if those house rules aren't strictly necessary. Some things we do are necessary to competently function, like going to school or drinking water. Other things are augmentative.
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JollyJoker
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posted January 27, 2021 04:39 PM |
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artu said:
Btw, how old a kid are you guys talking about, 8 or 16? It’s not quite the same. Watching television is also not illegal but there are parents who forbid it up to a certain age. A lot of things that are considered normal can be forbidden by a group of parents who consider them immoral, sin, unhealthy, harmful, etc. But after a certain age, they simply cant control it even if they want to anyhow, at least outside the house.
The older the kids become, the more responsibility they should take for themselves. It's a process.
I make a difference between HOUSE rule and general rule, no matter the age. VERY easy example: cursing. HOUSE rule: don't curse (make sure, parents don't curse either with that rule - I HATE decency rules that are permanently broken by the rule makers and excused with, "with adults it's something else"). General rule: "Keep to the house rule of the house in which you are. Cursing isn't well-liked in some circles, especially not with children, especially not in school, so if you curse outside the house, you do it on your own risk - and don't say I didn't warn you."
Interestingly enough, that works the other way round as well.
I had no problem with my daughter cursing (I do it myself) or telling me in drastic words what she thought of me when I enforced house rules and so on. But I made sure to tell her that not everyone might keep cool when telling them they were stupid, and while it wasn't punished in the house she could expect punishment in other houses, for example in school, for this behavior.
See, the problem with rules is, if they are broken, you have to react - in other words, the rule has to be enforced. The enforcing as such is difficult enough, but in the house you can at least halfway control it. You see or know when a rule has been broken.
Outside the house it's WAY more difficult. What if a neighbor tells you something ("I saw/heard your son doing this") and your son says, "no, I didn't"? Just as an example. You don't want to hold court for this crap. I mean, if you are a fanatic veggie, there might be neighbors or even friends having really fun telling you, "I saw your oldest and his friends at a BurgerKing yesterday, eating a fat wopper - I thought he was a veggie".
Sucks.
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 27, 2021 04:56 PM |
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Ok.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2021 04:51 PM |
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fred79
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posted November 11, 2021 05:17 PM |
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"could folklore hold the answer?"...
yeah, it's because of folklore. totally. that's what's convinced everybody. that's why people want to keep authority over their own bodies and lives. it's because of folklore, and not the mountains of evidence that is still piling up against the shots, it's tech, and all of the corrupt and stupid pushing the expansive power-grabbing and overreaching tyranny on everyone.
so interesting, that article. so thought-provoking. such absolute garbage, written by retards who sell their souls as a matter of business.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2021 06:32 PM |
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fred79 said:
"could folklore hold the answer?"...
yeah, it's because of folklore. totally. that's what's convinced everybody.
It "convinces" only the idiots, abd thankfully they are not in the majority.
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fred79
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posted November 11, 2021 07:37 PM |
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who are the idiots, again? just to clarify.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2021 07:47 PM |
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I'm happy to clarify it for you. The idiots are those people who believe in these absurd covid conspiracy theories.
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fred79
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posted November 11, 2021 08:14 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2021 08:56 PM |
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For starters the ones mentioned in the articles - plus every one not specifically mentioned there.
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This thread is pages long: 
