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| Thread: Military service |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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OhforfSake
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posted January 20, 2017 06:25 PM |
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The problem with that in my opinion is that every piece of land on the planet is most likely part of one or another country.
So if you don't like it and say you didn't ask to be born in said country you are told you can just leave (if you are lucky), but no matter where you go, it's the land/country that owns you and not the other way around (in a way).
It reminds me when one of our politicians some years ago spoke about how the people existed for the government/country and not the government/country that existed for the people.
Like said before, not only is a professional army probably a better idea, the idea of a conscripted army may not provide much value in a way situation especially if you are part of a small country.
I am not against the army as such, many technological wonders are due to army funding, I am against if they are used for taking lives, but I'm not against the science behind it. As such I'd prefer if a country that can't have any "serious" army anyway (and don't need one) would focus on smaller areas, but will then become the best in those areas.
Examples could be cyber technology, rocket engineering, how to make the human body survive extreme conditions, and many more I am sure.
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tSar-Ivor
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posted January 20, 2017 06:26 PM |
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AlHazin said:
That's called military service but that's called "national service" too.
It might seem illogical, but it's basically like you owe a duty to your country that you have to fulfill, if you are in the required conditions to do so. What you might learn or experience is an extra, a bonus.
Oh and your opinion doesn't matter -I mean not you tSar, but in a general point of view, your country knows better than you.
If the country represented my identity I would agree, but Western Liberal idealogy is pretty moderate and non-homogenous, so I disagree, I am not going to be forced to fight just to protect someone else's interests that I don't agree with, if someone tries to force me I will then be forced to conduct open rebellion. That is my creed, and I will live and die by it. I won't be compelled by idiotic notions of threats to my security and all that bs, if someone threatens my direct security they'll be dealt with or I'll perish in the attempt, but I will certainly not be dumb enough to fight under the pretense that (for instance) Mr Putin is a threat to my security.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 20, 2017 06:42 PM |
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Geny said:
That's just it though, it's not about what you want or what you get. It's about what you give.
It's actually about what you get, not in the sense of benefit but indoctrination. I won't be utopian or strictly ideological about this, since in Israel, the motto "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" has an actual "survival mode" argument attached to it. When you consider your population and the number of crowded neighbors you have, objecting to the very existence of your state by default, it's not completely paranoid either. But what conscription actually provides today in general, where armies of thousands marching into each other on open battlefields is a thing of the past, in priority, has nothing to do with combat skills or learning to use equipment etc. It's about molding "the citizen" who formulates the question the way you do. And that can be quite a dangerous thing by itself depending on the ideology of the state.
One can argue that elementary public schools or broadcasting agencies of the state are also instruments of such indoctrination to a degree, and they are. However, the very essence of the military and its hierarchical structure, how not to question things and following orders is the skeletal necessity of its function and training, makes it an exceptionally dangerous machine. A machine that would be taking in individuals and giving out yes-men.
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AlHazin
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النور
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posted January 20, 2017 06:47 PM |
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What if your country was invaded? Would you do your "duty" to defend it tSar?
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tSar-Ivor
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posted January 20, 2017 07:38 PM |
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It's not my country, I couldn't care less what happens too it. If those under my protection came into harm I would safeguard them, but in terms of a national scale, no, I'd work to defend my university and my immediate surroundings (as well as friends). That is IF the invading force have direct ill intents toward me, I will not buy into false pretenses that someone is 'evil' and must be toppled for the sake of this country's imperialism.
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artu
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posted January 20, 2017 07:41 PM |
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But what if they attack to prevent the unification of the Balkans?
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OhforfSake
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posted January 20, 2017 07:46 PM |
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Then it will be BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD 
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frostysh
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WHY?
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posted January 20, 2017 07:54 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 19:55, 20 Jan 2017.
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Baronus -
Baronus said:
There are people who was born to it. Good for one is not good for another. Its a good job if you are honest man. And not good for thugs. The same is country. If you live in bandit country dont go there because they order you eg. bombing civilians etc. In normal state its good.
This guy has no served in the military  . I am joking.
The honest man - Well yeah, I have doubts that in some modern military forces of Europe, will ask you to eat folks as the crusader near Al'Marra. But hell, who knows , "honest man", you are causing me to cry... .
In the normal states, the states that is not waged in the any war? - Military without war is a circus/Disneyland - I am joking again.
Geny -
Geny said:
That's just it though, it's not about what you want or what you get. It's about what you give.
I'm not saying your politicians are making the right choice, I don't know the threats your country might face, your economical state etc. etc., I'm just saying that forced conscription is something you need to look at from a national point of view, rather than a personal one.
Yak  , and this guy actually served in the military, I think so. It is horrible .
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 20, 2017 08:00 PM |
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@Tsar
I am not a nationalist. At least I don't think so. It's been more than 6 years since I started my military service and I still don't care about borders or land. I do care for the people on that land though, because some of them happen to be my friends and my family. And they are worth fighting for, both figuratively and literally.
The way I see it, a country is there for its people - to support them, to care for them and to protect them. But a country is nothing but a shell, an idea. It can't do anything without the people it's comprised from. It needs them to work, to pay taxes and, yes, sometimes it needs them pick up arms and give away a certain amount of their lives. I don't think that you shouldn't ask what your country can do for you. That's exactly what's it there for. But while you rightfully fight for it to care for you, you should (imo) always ask yourself whether you give it the tools to do so.
@artu
You're partly right. An army can be the second greatest indoctrination tool (first being religion). The army grabs people in the most impressionable time in their lives. They hardly have time to think, people always tell them how to behave, what to do and, yes, even how to think. But that doesn't mean that that's what the army does. Most of people I know served or are still serving, that's how it is in Israel. And, yes, many did not come out the same way they went in. Some are impressionable enough to believe everything they hear, others have seen or experienced things that made them forget that there's always at least two sides to any story. But here's the thing, most people I know didn't do a 180 degrees turn. Most people came out facing more or less the same direction the were facing when they went in.
It's hard to completely indoctrinate someone completely in a Western civilization nowadays. Even the most hardened combatants go home every couple of weeks or so. They talk to their families, they talk to their friends. Internet is readily available to everyone even during their stay in the base. It's not easy to brainwash someone in world like that. And that's provided you actually try, which is not necessarily what an army does.
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kipshasz
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posted January 20, 2017 08:22 PM |
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Gendude right there spoke like a true nationalistm, as well as a patriot of his country there. Two thumbs up.
Much better and reasonable than what I've heard from these, what I, and some ppl of my circle, like to call "pub patriots"(which is describing a person who is a patriot in talk, and when a pint is present. And the one who swears he'll die for his country in a patriotic metal concert, but outside of said venues will do jack crap, and when opportunity presents itself will most likely flee).
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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AlHazin
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النور
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posted January 20, 2017 08:26 PM |
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Edited by AlHazin at 20:29, 20 Jan 2017.
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@tSar:
I don't know to which extent the western mentality got, but I do know that some people think the way I told you. They don't feel that of a nationalist, but upon evident threats approaching their countries, they would react quite strongly to it.
I often say that, but it's a problem of definition. What's is a country? Geny is right when he says that it doesn't mean much. A country is not its borders, more the people, people that share common characteristics, mainly origin, ethnicity, language, religion, culture... etc. It is these links that tie a certain amount of people together creating the nation. Your country is like your family/friend in a vary larger scale. If you walked in India and heard Hungarian you would stop and search from where it comes from. It would ring in your head and mean something to you. It is that way that nationalism begins.
I could say that you actually experience nationalism, but in an XS size, a nationalism that is valid only your close environment only.
Now I'm okay with you for the personal interests... etc. I know what you mean. I have that kind of country too.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 20, 2017 08:28 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:29, 20 Jan 2017.
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@Geny
Well, the same Western civilization mostly don't apply conscription anymore though, does it. Especially the countries which had more to do with the characteristics of its progress.
Of course, I'm not talking about some "clone army" concept where anybody getting in transforms into a purely obedient puppet, nowhere in the world can it be that cartoon-like. However, when it comes to the purpose of conscription (as opposed to a professional military consisting of volunteers), the indoctrination part is the prior purpose in today's world, they are certainly not preparing for the Battle of Carthage.
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EnergyZ
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posted January 20, 2017 08:44 PM |
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I see your points about trying to protect the family and friends, and how people become better after the military service is over.
But I still believe that money could simply be put into better and greater things. There have been recent events, so to speak, that should make the government react more on how to save money rather than spend it. Not saying this is unimportant, but is it really needed *today* rather than "tomorrow"?
If anything, I'd sooner say to give this a chance to unemployed people first (especially the homeless).
And, to be honest, there have been some fascism signs in our military, but that's talk for another time.
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kipshasz
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posted January 20, 2017 09:03 PM |
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Energydude, don't be one of those that preach fascism over any tiny thing. That said, people that preach destruction of another ethnicity are not technically fascists, they're shauvinists. Only true fascism was in Italy, and it doesn't need to be confused with nationalsocialism and a particular Austrian with drug addiction and Parkinson's disease(not to mention syphilis, according to some sources)
That said, if your government is pushing for some paranoid pretext (Putin, or in Balkan case I guess, Serbia or Pro-Serb separatists), then it's by all means give them the finger.
Me, I have a genetically passed down heart disorder, so the military oficials themselves flipped me off when I tried to complete the basic training. Also, My dad may or may not be a former USSR black ops agent, so there's that as well. This lady at the recruitment office freaked out when she saw my last name.
In this potential enemy(most of the high ranking officers too have ties to the intelligence/spec ops of the former USSR) filled military in this country of mine, all doors a blocked for me.
Also, Energydude, be careful when stating your opinions in your local internets. I have received several death threats from pub patriots and Khokhol lovers. Since if you are against military, then suddenly you're not patriotic.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 21, 2017 12:47 AM |
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OhforfSake said:
The problem with that in my opinion is that every piece of land on the planet is most likely part of one or another country.
So if you don't like it and say you didn't ask to be born in said country you are told you can just leave (if you are lucky), but no matter where you go, it's the land/country that owns you and not the other way around (in a way).
It reminds me when one of our politicians some years ago spoke about how the people existed for the government/country and not the government/country that existed for the people.
Like said before, not only is a professional army probably a better idea, the idea of a conscripted army may not provide much value in a way situation especially if you are part of a small country.
I am not against the army as such, many technological wonders are due to army funding, I am against if they are used for taking lives, but I'm not against the science behind it. As such I'd prefer if a country that can't have any "serious" army anyway (and don't need one) would focus on smaller areas, but will then become the best in those areas.
Examples could be cyber technology, rocket engineering, how to make the human body survive extreme conditions, and many more I am sure.
A lot of fascinating inventions have come about though the military, but that's an extremely inefficient way of acquiring R&D as opposed to just writing up grants for engineering projects or other fields. If the military doesn't serve a utility in some capacity of protection, from nature or people, then there's really no reason for its existence.
We aren't yet at the point where the world's physical threats can be solved exclusively through the police or civil servants, but we are gradually moving there as the world becomes a less violent place. It used to be that there was an ambivalent blending between police and a military force, with a lot of hired workers simply being "guards" who were employed under a commander or local magistrate, and they served a multipurpose role of domestic peace, outside threats, and other as-needed functions. I think this specialization will continue in future decades and "the military" will become an increasingly undefined term.
Assuming the EU doesn't unravel, which is a strong unfortunate possibility, it is pioneering the next stage of miltary infrastructure by having a supranational mobile force that can be used on an "as needed" basis for many countries. This elasticity could then be taken to the next level of covering continents. This will of course be a long, arduous, and sloppy process, complete with many valid concerns, and tribalism will be resistant to it, but just from a financial perspective this is an enormous money saver if you have a smaller but highly elastic force that will always be available where it is needed. As Eisenhower said, each B-52 that needs produced and maintained is money that could have been used for a school.
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tSar-Ivor
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posted January 21, 2017 02:05 AM |
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Hmm Blizzy while you raise an interesting point I thought that the topic is about conscription/forced military service (or milder forms of it such as just basic training) rather than the institution of the army and the function that it serves (I guess it's relevant as an extension, but I'm interested to here your direct thoughts on conscription).
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Blizzardboy
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posted January 21, 2017 02:12 AM |
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It shouldn't be legal, of course.
I apologize if my post somewhat strayed from the topic. As usual, I responded to the recent post while completely ignoring the content of the OP.
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tSar-Ivor
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posted January 21, 2017 04:14 AM |
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Haha wasn't my intent to point it out in a negative light since you didnt actually go that offtpic, I just wanted your specific thoughts on the matter at hand.
But I agree wholeheartedly, conscription should be illegal.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 21, 2017 08:37 AM |
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 21, 2017 08:49 AM |
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Because it's somebody else making a major decision about your life?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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