|
| Thread: Military service |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
posted January 21, 2017 09:12 AM |
|
|
Like that's a first? You have to go school, you have to pay taxes, you have to do all kind of stuff. Also, if it's only for a few months like the OP said, it's not such a major decision.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 09:19 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 09:23, 21 Jan 2017.
|
Yes, but while it is quite hard to imagine a modern society without elementary school (which btw, involves kids who can not decide for themselves yet, adults don't have to go to university, though), and a government that can provide basic infrastructure without any taxation at all, it is extremely easy to imagine a society that functions just as well without conscription, there is a feasible and plausible alternative, not just in theory but in many factual examples as well.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 10:12 AM |
|
|
That's a good point. But the question is "is conscription bad to the point of illegal, or just not necessary?". In other words, if a country needs an army, should conscription be avoided at all costs in favor of a professional army, or is it still a viable options if it serves that countries interests better (from the point of view of finances and army proficiency)?
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 10:37 AM |
|
|
Conscription is about the needs of the country. Take Ukraine for example. They didn't have conscription until the Russian invasion, where they had to bring it back to defend the country. Some countries like Switzerland might not need at all conscription, but others can't afford that luxury.
That said, it's a double-edged weapon. Syrian rebels were tough for the regular army because they used to have FIVE years of military service IIRC, only to men. So Basically all the people are able to fight, and in a case of civil war you have decent opponents. We had the same problem in the 90s.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 11:04 AM |
|
|
@Geny
Well, a short period of a few months the most, involving some basic training may be an option if there is a constant threat of invasion but the thing I already mentioned is, I don't see massive armies as efficient tools of war considering today's technology. I mean, Iraq had conscription, U.S. didn't, how many weeks did it take for them to overthrow the regime and occupy the capital. Extreme example? U.S. is a super power? Maybe, but when was the last time you ever heard of millions of troops involved in a battle? Unless, you're China or India, with endless reserves of reinforcements, I don't see it playing out a drastic difference in the outcome of a conflict. Since you are actual military though, feel free to correct me if I'm underestimating the value.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 12:03 PM |
|
|
That's not an easy question to answer. True, most battles nowadays are not fought on big scale, but I have a feeling that if everyone downsize their armies because of that someone will pop up saying "snow this", build a big army and stomp its neighbors while the rest of the world pulls its resources to stop them. It's like nuclear weapons on a smaller scale: no one predicts there will be a nuclear war, but it is mostly because every major player has a nuclear weapon. And the US really isn't the best of examples. They are big enough and wealthy enough to have a professional army bigger than some conscripted armies out there.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 12:23 PM |
|
|
Well, you can speculate the opposite just as well, the only reason nobody downsizes their military can be because of their rivals not doing it. To continue your analogy, during the Cold War, the U.S. had enough nukes to scorch the earth like 17 times over and the U.S.S.R. had the power to do it 3 times over or something like that. At one point, they looked at each other and said "WTF are we doing!" They mutually agreed to get rid of most of their nuclear war heads. As a kid, I remember watching Gorbachev and Reagan signing the treaty on T.V. Of course, that's a little bit different, since it would be enough to have nukes capable of cleansing the earth just once, the rest is like having money more than you can spend. But the reason they escalated arming up still was that others were doing the same thing.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 12:43 PM |
|
|
AlHazin said:
[Conscription is] a double-edged weapon. Syrian rebels were tough for the regular army because they used to have FIVE years of military service IIRC, only to men. So Basically all the people are able to fight, and in a case of civil war you have decent opponents. We had the same problem in the 90s.
Interesting point I had not considered, thank you for bringing it up.
|
|
kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 01:05 PM |
|
|
AlHazin said:
Conscription is about the needs of the country. Take Ukraine for example. They didn't have conscription until the Russian invasion
Lol, ukraine is a failed state, always was since the USSR collapsed. Right now, the idealism of Euromaidan has faded, and the people again, are thinking of another coup, since the rule of Poroshenko is worse than it was under Yanukovitch. Remember, there was no de-sovietisation after Ukrainian SSR became "independent". So far, I believe that the mass lustration was performed only in Estonia out all 15 former soviet republics.
Corruption is so rampant there, police can rob you just as much as your average criminal can, if not worse.
For former soviet republics, bashing russia is a way to keep the populace occupied, why they increase their personal wealth at our expense. But here's a thing though. after the USSR collapsed, no one blamed russians for the mistreatment and oppressions they suffered under commie rule. all the hate went to communists. and russian does not equal communist.
Did the euromaidan revolution changed anything? No, of course it didn't. It sucked up a bunch of overly idealistic youth into going and dying at the hands of latin marxist antifa dorks, who uses drug money to purchase old USSR era equipment and weapon platforms. Along side old chinese stuff, I think those are the cheapest option in the black market for guns.
The BUK system which was used to allegedly shoot down MH17 is innacurate as bleep, even at the best possible configuration(with radar arrays guiding the missiles and stuff), it only has 80% accuracy at the very best.
The so called separatists are supported by latin american marxists, and that crowd is involved in drug trade. Want proof? Look up this Miquel Puertas character, a disgraced spaniard teacher, that now teaches at Donetsk Technical University, business management or some stuff like that (he used to teach spanish in Lithuania).
In short, if Russia wanted Ukraine so badly, they would've taken it already. Ukraine is not a part of NATO or EU, it's basically a third world country. And no one cares about them. But. If a country is annexed, all it's debts and other stuff automatically transfer to the country that performed the annexation. And do you honestly think Putin needs more corruption ridden teritory with massive debts to add to Russia's budget? With all the sanctions still active and stuff?
It's pretty hilarious when one channel says that Russia is inpoverished and common russians are tearing down wallpapers to make some soup, while another preaches Russia is about to conquer the world. Makes 0 sense.
Ukrainians screwed themselves very badly, and only their oligarchic government is to blame. Where are they now? Most of them "heroes" fled the state. AFAIK Jaceniuk is in US now, and Tymoshenko is god knows where.
Unfortunately, no amount of revolutions will change that.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
|
|
frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 05:12 PM |
|
|
kipshasz -
kipshasz said:
Lol, ukraine is a failed state, always was since the USSR collapsed. Right now, the idealism of Euromaidan has faded, and the people again, are thinking of another coup, since the rule of Poroshenko is worse than it was under Yanukovitch. Remember, there was no de-sovietisation after Ukrainian SSR became "independent". So far, I believe that the mass lustration was performed only in Estonia out all 15 former soviet republics.
Corruption is so rampant there, police can rob you just as much as your average criminal can, if not worse.
No. It is not.
SU has not collapsed... RoU have a good chances to survive with the support of the "West-guys", and if the government of the RoU will be careful and do not make a rapid and unsafe decisions, this is crucial...
Correction, not only idealism of this "Euromaidan" has faded, but the radicalism also. RoU government seems to be more wise, well - RoU is still alive, that a confirmation of good decisions of the RoU government. At least not so bad...
Well than you are talking about a standard problems of the states as RoU. But how do you propose to solve that problems?
mr kipshasz, talking about problems is the one thing, but to find their solution - is a truly another, especially in the case of RoU. 
And I will repeat, that history showing not a very good statistic of state that have too much of idealism/radicalism, this not very good factors if you want to keep your state alive. Of course, if your are not overpowered such as US, SU, or CPR  .
kipshasz said:
For former soviet republics, bashing russia is a way to keep the populace occupied, why they increase their personal wealth at our expense. But here's a thing though. after the USSR collapsed, no one blamed russians for the mistreatment and oppressions they suffered under commie rule. all the hate went to communists. and russian does not equal communist.
You have forgot a very crucial factor - USSR was not only russians, or a communists. This was a name for a something a very powerful.
The supporters of USSR external politics is the almost of 80% of the citizens of the RF... And this is in the most optimistic case.
Usually, the main ideology of that guys (a powerful ideology, much more powerful than nation-guys myths, or a Marx-dudes madness) is too restore the power of SU, the way in which it will be done, is not matter,... to make RF as great as SU was. To make an opposition for US in the world, in the any branch of the life, this is including science, military, Earth-dominance, etc.
What they think about situation in the RoU - "If the RoU not with us, than it means RoU with US, and RoU is our enemy/target, one of the many targets..." - This is simple logic, that takes its root from the ancient times...
kipshasz said:
Did the euromaidan revolution changed anything? No, of course it didn't. It sucked up a bunch of overly idealistic youth into going and dying at the hands of latin marxist antifa dorks, who uses drug money to purchase old USSR era equipment and weapon platforms. Along side old chinese stuff, I think those are the cheapest option in the black market for guns.
The BUK system which was used to allegedly shoot down MH17 is innacurate as bleep, even at the best possible configuration(with radar arrays guiding the missiles and stuff), it only has 80% accuracy at the very best.
A nonsense you talkin. "Euromaidan" stuff was the standard stuff, like in the many countries before, and after, that was something like natural reaction of the society, well, little bit supported. . . The nation-guys tried to get up in the government in the all of that chaos (as it usually happens), but they failed, and this is good for RoU, because history showing that in the other cases, can be a truly catastrophe . If yo you are in the rule of the 40 millions of peoples, you brain must be far from the mythology and radicalism.
About AA systems - *facepalm*.
kipshasz said:
The so called separatists are supported by latin american marxists, and that crowd is involved in drug trade. Want proof? Look up this Miquel Puertas character, a disgraced spaniard teacher, that now teaches at Donetsk Technical University, business management or some stuff like that (he used to teach spanish in Lithuania).
Again you are forgot about a very important factors - does not matter about their official biography, only by their choices... A very good examples is this guy from the Yugoslavia, of the last century - J. Broz Tito
kipshasz said:
In short, if Russia wanted Ukraine so badly, they would've taken it already. Ukraine is not a part of NATO or EU, it's basically a third world country. And no one cares about them. But. If a country is annexed, all it's debts and other stuff automatically transfer to the country that performed the annexation. And do you honestly think Putin needs more corruption ridden teritory with massive debts to add to Russia's budget? With all the sanctions still active and stuff?
It's pretty hilarious when one channel says that Russia is inpoverished and common russians are tearing down wallpapers to make some soup, while another preaches Russia is about to conquer the world. Makes 0 sense.
How the red-ones can take RoU if they so wanted it? In which way, can you explain? I will move little bit further, if you think that it is possible to done in the military way, you truly mistaken. Even with a minimal support from the "Yankee-&Co" the RoU with 40 millions of peoples will become a new Vietnam for RF, like it was for US. Even if a small percent from this 40 millions will fight... The chaos of war will destroy the poor infrastructure of the RoU and made it worth almost cosmic resource to rebuild.
i.e. in the RoU a few Nuclear Power Plant exist, as I know they all are build in the time of so-called USSR.
How many of this power plants will be destroyed in the firth month of the full scale war regardless of the side, that will done it? The war, is not so simple as you think, mr kipshasz. RF is no need for country like a Syria, with a ruins. RF is need for a country in the "good condition".
kipshasz said:
Ukrainians screwed themselves very badly, and only their oligarchic government is to blame. Where are they now? Most of them "heroes" fled the state. AFAIK Jaceniuk is in US now, and Tymoshenko is god knows where.
Unfortunately, no amount of revolutions will change that.
This is something like a russians saying : "Bazarnaya babka na lavochke"  - This is a level of your analysis. But who hell knows, maybe you are particularly right, mr kipshasz .
____________
|
|
Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 05:29 PM |
|
|
Young men (and women) are not property to be disposed of by the state according to its will. They're human beings. The irony shouldnt escape us of oppressing a people in order to oppose an oppressor, if opposing an oppressor is even what conscriptions are being used for, which isn't always the case. Sometimes they can be sent across entire oceans in order to satiate a grand political objective, with average people being the ones to suffer and die for it and young women to never to see their sweethearts come home.
But even supposing the best intentions, conscriptions are very much unique from schools and taxes, in which the whole of society contributes and participates without exception, unless you're Greek. You can't compensate for a man's life or the spontaneous moment when they may or may not be needed for combat and die or be permanently impaired. Rather than everybody putting a small sum into a community pool, it is more like a coersive lottery system, where some have to give everything they have, and others nothing, and this all because a state is allegedly more valuable than those who live in it.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 05:34 PM |
|
|
Geny said:
That's not an easy question to answer. True, most battles nowadays are not fought on big scale, but I have a feeling that if everyone downsize their armies because of that someone will pop up saying "snow this", build a big army and stomp its neighbors while the rest of the world pulls its resources to stop them. It's like nuclear weapons on a smaller scale: no one predicts there will be a nuclear war, but it is mostly because every major player has a nuclear weapon. And the US really isn't the best of examples. They are big enough and wealthy enough to have a professional army bigger than some conscripted armies out there.
Quote:
Conscription is about the needs of the country. Take Ukraine for example. They didn't have conscription until the Russian invasion, where they had to bring it back to defend the country. Some countries like Switzerland might not need at all conscription, but others can't afford that luxury.
Edit: Kippy said much the same.
If the Ukrainian governemt is overthrown by a covert ops unit all those enslaved youths will have zero motivation to carry on the fight, they're not fighting for their country, they're fighting because their freedoms have been stripped by an oppressive fascist regime or for their own ideals (but then you don't need conscription, those would surely join enmass right?!). Not only that, they have been getting creamed in Donetsk and Luhansk by Russian soldiers for years, if Ruskies ever decided to do anything more I doubt they need to do anything more than just fart across the border and Ukraine would collapse.
Conscription is ineffective and wholly immoral in my opinion.
Quote:
It's pretty hilarious when one channel says that Russia is inpoverished and common russians are tearing down wallpapers to make some soup, while another preaches Russia is about to conquer the world. Makes 0 sense.
Summs up the Cold War pretty much, much ado about nothing, most of Russia's nuclear arsenal was aimed at China and not the West (especially post Stalin's death and the deteriation of relations between Mao and Khruschev). Russia was still pretty incapable and unmotivated for any offensive action post WWII, all the states going Commie like Vietnam under chiang kai shek were not subordinate to the USSR, that fear was just the irrational nonsense of the Western World, that communists are somehow one cohesive whole, and we have paid for this asshattery for over half a century.
Quote:
and this all because a state is allegedly more valuable than those who live in it.
That's if we even buy into the threat into the propaganda in the first place. Kippy has already made a case for why Russia wouldn't even want the rest of Ukraine, but the Russians for all their cons (apparently homophobia is a baseless accusation, while we literally protect and legitimise a full blown fascist regime in Ukraine, it's a joke, a sick ****ing joke). If Russia (as if) decided to invade this country I wouldn't lift a finger to protect our godforsaken institutions (if forced to fight, then fight I shall, against those that would enslave me), but am tired of toiling just so Mammon can feast on the cream of my labours, and I certainly won't be corralled like a sheep for the sake of rich people's irrational fears.
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 06:11 PM |
|
|
Well Kip's surely right for the fact that Ukraine has a weak state, even if it actually has a distinct identity from Russia. The Kiev Ru's was even a "Russia" before Moskova was founded.
That said, conscription is the easy solution, when you're in a hurry or you lack reinforcements... etc. Countries that could do without it did. USA would not need it.
I'm not very familiar with the Ukrainian problem but it might be a problem of desovietization, I think it has to move on from the 20th century and draw a clear perspective for its future. As stated Estonia did well.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 06:15 PM |
|
|
Hazin, Ukraine after the Western coup is not a country any peace and justice loving person would defend willingly (when I refer to countries it's to the governing institutions rather than people per-se, true one cant rule without consent, but simple inaction or apathy can be taken as consent so it's not necessarily true that Ukrainians are fascist, but Ukraine is by virtue of its governance).
Russia was basically on friendly terms with the old leader and forced him to reject joining the EU, this pissed off people in his country and in the West a lot, so they replaced him with some Neo-Nazis who were instantly recognised in the West as the legitimate government. (that is the boiled down version). Russia's conduct wasn't prestine, but suddenly bordering a fascist regime (backed by the west) who immediately started oppressing the large Russian population is a huge geo-political shift. Russia's reaction is perfectly rational althought they are not blameless in this, the Ukrainian people are paying a very heavy price for the cock fight between the West and Russia (to be fair the decision not to join the EU could've been overturned without resorting to a violent breach of international law by the West, and then by Russia who responded in kind to protect its interests and people, like hell they were going to lose Sevastopol to Nazis).
That is the summary of what I understand of the underlying causes of the conflict,
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 06:29 PM |
|
|
Quite a mess. There are many ideologies fighting in Ukraine, those who are "Russians" those who prefer being "European" those who feel Crimean... etc.
As you said conscription won't always be the solution, especially in that case. What we tend to forget is that countries appear but they disappear too. Many nations disappeared by the past and that could happen today, if Ukraine keeps on going it might be a good candidate, principally with the loss of nationalism, maybe it's its historical background that "maintains" it despite the current situation.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 06:49 PM |
|
|
Generally Ukrainians can't decide in which sphere of influence they want to be influenced by, starting in 1648 when they rebelled against the Lithuanian-Polish Empire and sequentially joined Russian Empire. Several years back, they had the so called "Orange" revolution, we all know how that ended, with the supposedly "pro-European" politicians stealing like there was no tommorow. Then the "heroine" Julia Tymoshenko was jailed, and started faking an illness.
The Crimea thing is bogus. Crimean peninsula was joined to Ukrainian SSR when Nikita Khruschev was in office, as a way to say "sorry" for Holodomor. That's one version of it at least, but it was given to Ukrainian SSR when the fan of agricultural experiments ran the Union. It was never a full part of Ukraine, it was an autonomous unit with a lot of rights, so it could seceded at any moment. Also, at that point in history, the remains of East Prussia, now known as Kaliningrad, were offered to Lithuanian SSR, but our gensec Antanas Snieckus told 'ol Nikita to go bleep himself, and demanded areas around Grodna, Lyda and Suwalki instead. We got neither. Which, I think is for the best, in terms of receiving Kaliningrad esspecially, since today, it would be a lot like the mess in Donbass. Since after the convict battalions of the Red army passed through there, nothing resembling the so called Kleinlitauen remained.
I myself believe that Crimean Khanate needs to be reinstated as a separate nation belonging to neither Russia nor Ukraine.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
|
|
frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
|
|
posted January 21, 2017 10:11 PM |
|
|
I have doubts that history of the Rus state will give some answers to the modern crisis in the RoU. Only a single purpose of it is left - to use it as a propaganda, by a both sides of conflict. Nothing more.
If you want historical examples, that may be in some particular cases similar to the crisis in RoU, you need to search in the much more closest dates. Balkans, particularly - Yugoslavia. Republic of Belarus, which is good example too, but as I know they are in the sphere of influence of the RF... Well I can say also that a Poland is bad choice, due to the stuff that Poland have no years under such huge influence of USSR, and have no such problems such as RoB and RoU after USSR, has been declared about departing ... Which is totally transformed, we can even say - predictably corrupted the every aspect of the life in this countries due to the lawless and stuff. This is <imo>.
tSar-Ivor -
I think you are wrong, on same level as mr kipshasz, but in the opposing direction. If in the RoU exist, a radical-nation-guys government, RoU may already be killed by RF. The existence of RoU is a confirmation that the government of RoU is not a faci, nazi, or radica-natio stuff, or some other similar nonsense.
Why I think so? Because if I would be on the place of the RF, I will try to place in RoU a radical-natio or neo-nazi government, they are perfect in this case, to destabilize and finally kill the RoU as independent country. Especially in the reality of the 40 millions population in the RoU.
Natio-guys will always make a very predictable moves, they always try to separate peoples, to distinguish one from others by their myths, their imagination about genetics, and stuff which is leading to conflict inside society ===== > to the weakness of the entire state.
Many times that has been confirmed by a history. And viola, you will get what you want.
But unfortunately for RF, as I know, on the voting in the RoU parliament, and president natio-guys totally sux . What a bad joke. But the main point is next. The lowest condition of life will be in the RoU, the better chances natio-guys will have to get a rule, the lowest chances RoU will have to survive... This is my prediction. Wrong or true, who hell knows. But I think it is much more better, than your expressing of the geopolitics situation in the RoU crisis, mr tSar-Ivor.
____________
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted January 31, 2017 09:33 PM |
|
|
Okay, the recent news says that if this military service thing will pass, it will still be three weeks, around the end of July.
But it still creates more harm than good. The reason for that is my country relies a lot on tourist (more than it should). A lot of people over the summer go to work on the coast for these few months to gain any kind of money they can (considering that over here the unemployment rate is high). Hoteliers, restaurant apprentices, coffee shop workers, etc.
This can't be of any good, especially when a lot of employers state they are lacking season workers (and, from the looks of it, will be forced to seek workers abroad).
____________
Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted January 31, 2017 10:03 PM |
|
|
It's not like every able person in the country will disappear for three weeks... The group will most likely be small enough not to impact the economy. In the long it will be everyone who's 18 years old. I feel like the tourist industry can handle three weeks without them.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted January 31, 2017 10:04 PM |
|
Edited by EnergyZ at 22:12, 31 Jan 2017.
|
And you know what really grinds my gears? How a lot of people say how in the army people will be taught:
* discipline (as if they were not taught that in school or by their parents)
* making their own bed (yeah, like there are any 18+ year olds that don't know how to make a bed)
* learning first aid (that one is actually needed, but the army isn't needed for that - namely, getting the DMV has to teach that)
* shooting (can be taught at shooting ranges; but is there a need to learn how to kill someone)
* keep the young ones from computers and tables.
The last one doesn't even affect me, I am an IT student.
Geny said:
The group will most likely be small enough not to impact the economy. In the long it will be everyone who's 18 years old. I feel like the tourist industry can handle three weeks without them.
You are right about that. But those people also need their paychecks, too. As said, the unemployment rate here is high. Unless the military gives some compensation for the service?
____________
Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
|
| |
|
|
