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| Thread: Trump campaign's lawsuits dropped in 4 States |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 02, 2020 11:49 PM |
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how can people deny the validity of evidence, if they don't ATTEMPT to even ACKNOWLEDGE what will be presented before the supreme court AS evidence? how can you DENY something by IGNORING that it exists, when it is literally PRESENTED TO YOU?
do you NOT understand how that makes you all look???
i wonder how most people who don't debate on hc see this. thank god this is in the osm for posterity. it'll be enlightening for people to be able to reference all this denial later on.
not that it really matters. an obscure website somewhere in the ether doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, regardless. and yet, here i am, arguing. 
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 03, 2020 01:30 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 01:33, 03 Dec 2020.
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Gandalf196 said:
JollyJoker said:
Well, that's the point - no one has seen massive proof. Because there is none. Or better, it's claimed that there is proof, but no one has any. You know, a tweet is no proof.
Sidney Powell for you:
https://youtu.be/aHJhpivL8a0
The SCOTUS will have all this presented to it, be sure of that 
I think some people have a misconception about how the appeals process works in the US. In an appeal you don't usually get to start over, present new arguments, and submit new evidence. It's not just a new trial in front of some new judges. The chance to introduce evidence is in the original court hearing, where evidence can be authenticated. The appeal basically reviews whether the court's decision and process was correct and legal based on the evidence made available to it. These people who think the Trump campaign is going to go to an appellate court or the Supreme court and THAT is where all this evidence is finally going to come out are in for a disappointment.
Link
There are exceptions to the general prohibition on expanding the record during appeals, of course, but they're pretty narrow and wouldn't seem to apply here. I'm no true expert, admittedly, but this also seems to be the consensus of most legal analysis I've read.
You can read more about the appellate process and expanding the record, if you care, here.
All this is aside from the mystery that, if there really is all the evidence of fraud, why the campaign didn't bring it out during the original hearings, where they were supposed to. And why they explicitly argued in front of the judges at trial that they weren't alleging any fraud, which is at odds with what they've said during press conferences.
I'll keep my opinion on that to myself.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 03:23 AM |
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Ok, Mr. Moderator, I won't discuss this anymore.
I will just sit and watch
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 06:25 AM |
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Corribus said:
I'll keep my opinion on that to myself.
you already made it clear what your beliefs are; there's no backing out from that. you did so on the first page of this thread, in case you forgot.
we'll just have to wait and see, how this plays out. it's not so much how it goes in court, but how the people take whatever happens. 80 million people KNOW there was massive fraud. the rest of you can lie and/or stick your heads in the sand; it doesn't matter. what matters, is your part after the court's decisions.
judging from what i and others have seen of your kind thus far, you are almost certainly going to accept whatever the media says. so far, the media has done what they always do, and lied to/manipulated their viewers/followers. i don't expect them to suddenly start telling the truth; they are(and have been for 4 goddamn years) part of the globalist coup to remove Trump from office and get the U.S. back on their track.
even if the msm DID suddenly grow a conscience and start telling the truth, my guess is, you're all so brainwashed, you wouldn't believe them if they reversed gears anyway. the globalist narrative has become a part of you people, like some insidious infection.
it has split the country nearly in two. me personally, i have close family members who have come to HATE me, simply because i am a patriot who cares. do you know how SICK that is??? to love someone, and want the best for them, and to have them turn around and HATE you because you support ONE MAN THEY WERE TAUGHT BY THE MSM TO HATE??? TO KNOW THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO EVEN HEAR YOUR VOICE ANYMORE IF IT CONTRADICTS WHAT THEY'RE TOLD BY THE MSM???
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 03, 2020 03:57 PM |
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I did not share an opinion in this thread about why the Trump campaign has prosecuted their lawsuits as they have done. I stated only that you have to have evidence in a court of law in the US.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 04:05 PM |
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please. it wasn't a neutral statement. "you have to have evidence" implies that you don't think there's evidence(as per the context of the thread and the replies you were in the midst of).
it doesn't matter anyway. like i said, what matters is what you all do after the final outcome.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 03, 2020 04:21 PM |
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The final outcome is the president being isolated in a coup attempt and then being removed, or he can go the traditional way 
A part of me thinks a coup attempt would be healthy for the country, not because it is a good thing in of itself - it is a horrible thing - but because it is uncharted territory and having things crystallize in the courts would be good insurance for the future, in case a smarter, more sinister version of Trump comes along at some point.
Edit:
I don't know why you feel the need to be neutral in the conversation Corribus, that is, unless you prefer it that way, which is fine. You were a US citizen before you were a mod, and there are other mods here that can step in and moderate this particular thread besides you.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 05:46 PM |
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blizz calling the mods to arms... for what?
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted December 03, 2020 05:53 PM |
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I rather understand it as that you lose your citizenship to become a moderator at HC.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 05:57 PM |
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i wonder what the requirements actually are, to be a moderator? do people just nominate you? do you appeal to val? is there a test involved?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 03, 2020 06:36 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:38, 03 Dec 2020.
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Fred,
First, unless a conclusion is explicitly stated, implications are drawn from the reader, and these do not always match a writer's intent. Even ignoring all potential biases due to the reader's belief system and their pre-existing perceptions about a writer's political, social, or moral stances, it is still impossible for one person to know perfectly the thoughts of another. Moreover, communication is an imperfect vector of ideas. If you think a piece of writing implies something, and the writer says that the stated implication was not intended, then either your own beliefs biased your interpretation of the writing, or the writer is lying about his or her intentions, or the writing or the reading was simply imperfect. Or all three. If you feel something you read implies a certain conclusion, then it is incumbent on you to ask for clarification. The writer may provide it and then you are free to make a determination of whether or not you believe the clarification. But ultimately communication is founded on trust, so if you cannot take a writer’s word about his or her intentions, then what is the point of even trying to communicate in the first place? This is, I will be frank, why I don’t typically try to communicate with you, fred, and it’s why I don’t bother to share with you my opinion on the matter. I don’t trust you to be a fair intellectual partner in a two-way exchange of ideas. Which is too bad, because I don’t interact with many people who hold the opinions you hold, and I would love to understand why you think the way you do. I think you could offer some interesting perspective that I would like to read about if you could shed some of your cynicism and tone down the rancor that poisons just about every conversation you’re involved in. (Actually, this is the main problem endemic to general political discourse in the US right now. We don't trust enough in each other to share, and listen to, ideas and viewpoints of those we believe beforehand we will disagree with. It essence, there is no polite disagreement any more.)
Anyway, because my intentions were called out, I will clarify for the benefit of people who might be inclined to trust my word: my statement on the first page of the thread was a fact, not an opinion. In the US, you as an accuser have to bring evidence to a court of law in order to plead your case. This principle is founded on the idea that defendants are innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. This is, most Americans will agree, a good thing.
Fred, you have interpreted my statement of fact to imply that I don’t think evidence exists. That’s not what I wrote, however. I never intended to convey in my first post that evidence doesn’t exist, even though that may be your reading of it (your bias, not mine). I have seen no credible evidence of widespread fraud according to my analysis of what has been provided, but that doesn’t mean I conclude it doesn’t exist or can’t exist. It is not easy to prove that evidence doesn’t exist or that something didn’t happen, and as a scientist I am trained to never make that kind of conclusion. Nevertheless, whether or not evidence of fraud exists, it is a fact that, so far, courts have stated that no evidence was brought to any hearings before them to sustain the leveled accusations (which, interestingly, don’t include fraud). This is why the cases have been dismissed with prejudice. Again, that’s not an opinion – it is a fact based on the court records, which you can read if you are so inclined. (I read several of them, including the most recent one from Pennsylvania.)
Now, I do have an opinion on why no evidence of fraud was brought to court by the Trump administration. I also have an opinion about why Trump’s attorneys have not claimed fraud in court, despite their willingness to do so in the public discourse. I have reviewed the websites you linked to because I have an open mind to consider information that goes against my prejudices, but in my judgement the arguments, data, and allegations provide no substantiated or convincing evidence of the claims you and others have put forward. I have reasoning on that as well, some of it based on opinion and some on factual analysis. I have not shared my opinion on these issues in this thread and I am not really inclined to do so because I don’t feel there’s a basis for trust and open-mindedness at Heroes Community right now that would justify the effort. I find the dispositions of actors involved to be hostile and cynical, opinions are already hardened, and alternative viewpoints are treated with derision – much like they are in the rest of the country.
@Blizz
I try to stay neutral for two reasons. First, as above. Second, in my role as moderator, particularly in contentious topics, I try to remove the perception of bias in my official duties by not sharing an opinion. Frankly, staying out of the fray also makes it easier for me to NOT be biased when I have to put on the moderator hat. I.e., by not getting emotionally invested. The perception of bias still exists, obviously, because people receiving disciplinary judgements have their own biases and persecution complexes. Nothing I can do about that, unfortunately. But I try to establish a record of not getting involved so that the majority of observers put trust in my ability to be fair. Believe it or not, I try to read posts without thinking too much about whether I agree with the opinions being offered are. Not a really easy thing to do, but my training as a scientist helps, since a lot of what I do professionally involves analyzing data and arguments and rendering judgements on them without my pre-existing opinions getting in the way. Fred and his ilk probably won’t believe it, but I would actually be receptive to credible evidence of election fraud, because accepting the reality of a fact-sustained conclusion, even if it is unpalatable or goes against my beliefs, is also part of my training. It is simply the case that I haven’t seen such evidence yet.
It is a good idea for everyone to remember that it’s ok to be a skeptic. But there’s a fine and dangerous line between skepticism and cynicism, and it’s easy to slide from one to the other without realizing it.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 06:39 PM |
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stopped reading shortly in. check out what has been gathered on those website links i posted. do so impartially. read and examine all of it. you want the whole picture? it's there.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 03, 2020 06:40 PM |
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Then you missed where I told you I did look at your websites.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 06:49 PM |
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and you still think there's no evidence?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 03, 2020 06:52 PM |
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No, I do not believe the information provided in those websites provide credible evidence of widespread election fraud.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 06:57 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 19:12, 03 Dec 2020.
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care to explain just WHY you think that? are you SURE you're not being dishonest with yourself, given the anti-Trump narrative?
ok, i read your entire reply. that you don't think evidence exists, even after you examined the evidence, is a conundrum. i ask again, WHY do you not see evidence of fraud, in the evidence of fraud?
as far as conversations in good faith, it is not the patriots who are arguing in bad faith. the reason there IS bias against the left, is because they have shown to be utterly lacking in honesty and good faith. if you have a problem with my rancor, talk to the left about that. they created, or helped to create, ALL of it.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 03, 2020 08:35 PM |
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fred79 said:
care to explain just WHY you think that?
Not really. Such an explanation would have to start with a description of philosophical/logical, scientific, and especially legal evidentiary standards and their relationship to the concept of proof, followed by picking apart the information you provided based on each of those categories. Then maybe if I was really ambitious I would lay out an explanation of why people who lack access to or faith in credible information sources are so easily swindled into conspiracy theories based on mistaking voluminous, even sometimes factual information for reliable evidence that can substantiate an attractive but fundamentally flawed conclusion.
It makes me tired just thinking about it.
If I had any feeling that you had a real interest in my evaluation of what you've provided, that you would factor it into whatever algorithm you're using when honing your beliefs, then maybe I would feel it was worth the investment. But I'm not really inclined to waste my time merely providing feed to your pugilism.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 08:39 PM |
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well, that's a complicated way of saying, "i don't believe evidence of fraud is actually evidence of fraud".
way to go. very scientific, indeed.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted December 03, 2020 09:26 PM |
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fred79 said:
blizz calling the mods to arms... for what?
Calling who to what? I wasn't talking to you.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 03, 2020 09:35 PM |
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i'm quite aware who you were talking to. now i'm talking to you.
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