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| Thread: Trump campaign's lawsuits dropped in 4 States |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 03, 2020 09:42 PM |
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Guys, you all should really, REALLY wait for a final verdict coming from the courts and potentially the Supreme one if the case goes that way because you're all currently at risk of looking like gullible fools in the end. Especially the "strong opinion" ones. Assuming that the courts are relatively impartial in taking the final decision (completely impartial is unrealistic), things can go either way. None of you reads actual evidence but rather reports of evidence or reports of lack of evidence, both of which are a propaganda of some sort targeted at the predisposed believers. That speaks a lot already.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 03, 2020 09:43 PM |
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Not what I said at all, and this intellectual dishonesty is exactly why I have no interest in discussing this or any other topic with you.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
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posted December 03, 2020 10:00 PM |
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how am i being intellectually dishonest? that boils down to what you said. if not, help me to understand your stance. how is it you can consider glaring red flags of fraud across multiple platforms to NOT be evidence that fraud occurred?
if i'm mistaken on your views, help me to understand them. i'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, if your response isn't just an outright dismissal of gathered indicators of fraud.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 03, 2020 10:03 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Guys, you all should really, REALLY wait for a final verdict coming from the courts and potentially the Supreme one if the case goes that way because you're all currently at risk of looking like gullible fools in the end. Especially the "strong opinion" ones. Assuming that the courts are relatively impartial in taking the final decision (completely impartial is unrealistic), things can go either way. None of you reads actual evidence but rather reports of evidence or reports of lack of evidence, both of which are a propaganda of some sort targeted at the predisposed believers. That speaks a lot already.
No. There has to be a point where this bollocks has to stop. No, we don't read actual "evidence", because that is bullcrap.
There has been an election. There has been a result. There have been claims that the election has been fraudulent. There have been claims that there was evidence for this claim. That's the facts. Whether there IS actual evidence or not - how would we know? But the evidence is supposed to be presented at courts, not on obscure websites, and so far NOTHING WHATSOEVER has stood before court.
NOTHING WHATSOEVER.
That's the only truth that matters, and the only truth verifiable. Full stop. So we don't read reports of evidence - we read about court rulings. That's it.
And you can't just abandon the idea of the rule of law, of constitutionality, just because you don't like a court ruling - or just because populist wannabe Mussolinis instigate the people casting dount on that priciple for their own personal power trip sakes.
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Salamandre
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Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 03, 2020 10:13 PM |
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Trump just said he will be running again in four years, hold my beer.
Will be interesting to see how Republicans will solve this, he was both a burden and an exceptional dynamic for them. The fact that Biden will probably be physically fried in four years will also play some role.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 03, 2020 10:15 PM |
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Except that nothing is final and "that's it" just doesn't work in this case, exactly because of the rule of law. You want it to end - stop reading and watching "news" about it. The court cases will be decided when they are decided, not when you or anybody else like it. 
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 03, 2020 10:38 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:39, 03 Dec 2020.
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It is pretty final considering they didnt claim fraud in the first place and they didnt bring ANY evidence that would be investigated in an appeal. As Cor already said, you dont bring in new evidence in an appeal. An election fraud is something really hard to pull off anyway and all of this has been a post-truth distortion for people who like to cater conspiracy theories. There was nothing slightly credible, not one accusation that actually sounded really fishy, if you werent ready to belive them anyway.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted December 03, 2020 11:05 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Trump just said he will be running again in four years, hold my beer.
Do you know what the expression "hold my beer" means? 
Are you running for president as well? 
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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OhforfSake
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Initiate
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posted December 03, 2020 11:19 PM |
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What is evidence anyway? In my country you can claim someone owes you money, and if they don't pay up your word alone is evidence in court.
If you are some kind of authority, like a financial institute, it is sufficient for a verdict in your favor.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 03, 2020 11:54 PM |
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artu said:
It is pretty final considering they didnt claim fraud in the first place and they didnt bring ANY evidence that would be investigated in an appeal. As Cor already said, you dont bring in new evidence in an appeal. An election fraud is something really hard to pull off anyway and all of this has been a post-truth distortion for people who like to cater conspiracy theories. There was nothing slightly credible, not one accusation that actually sounded really fishy, if you werent ready to belive them anyway.
Problem is, everyone at this point does exactly that - believes what is served to them by... what? Reports. Since day 1, mind you, when nobody actually had anything more than a general idea of what each side claims (let alone actual facts), not since yesterday or today. You got from the news "there's no evidence" or "there's a lot of evidence" depending on which media you prefer to take feed from and you parrot it as a fact. That's post-truth to me, not some vague attempts at labeling conspiracy theory anything which doesn't suit the current mainstream narrative and it presents the actual - very big - problem, if only you're willing to see it. Whatever the final verdict is, these elections showed, or rather confirmed, how little actual facts matter for the vast majority of people and how that can be used for whatever power games you like.
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fred79
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posted December 03, 2020 11:56 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 23:57, 03 Dec 2020.
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@ ohfor:
testimony counts as evidence; even if that testimony contradicts itself from the ground up. speaking from experience here. someone's testimony can end your life. at least in regular court, testimony is a HUGE deal. i wouldn't think it's so different in supreme court.
to have hundreds of affidavits all claiming corruption, is damning evidence in and of itself. that's NOT counting everything else.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2020 02:01 AM |
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Edited by artu at 02:11, 04 Dec 2020.
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@Zenofex
What are you talking about dude, they went to court and claimed no fraud. That is a fact no matter which media you choose to follow. Trump started rumors of fraud even before the election, “they’re gonna do it” etc, which indicates he was going to play this game no matter the outcome. Now, he says he’ll race again four years later which means he knows there will be no calling off the results, he’s just trying to put mud in the water. It’s just amazing how so many people take the bait. I mean, I expect it from fred, since it is how he percieves the world but to anybody with a level minded perspective, the situation turned into non-sense for quite while now. But since your original position was “election fraud is what to expect, it is default strategy,” I’m really not sure if you are in the right mind to see that either, I dont know if this is some post-communist country perspective in which you are used to corruption at all levels but in a country like U.S., it would be a huge thing if there was actual fraud, biggest kind of scandal and things have pretty much calmed down officially, if you put aside the blogger/conspiracy site noise. Of course, there are still people who even claim moonlandings didnt happen or “there were no planes” despite all the refutation and investigation results, so I’m guessing there will be people who will stick to the idea no matter what but nothing serious will come out of this after this point.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Blizzardboy
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posted December 04, 2020 02:42 AM |
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@artu
Yes, voter fraud, at least enough to tip even a very close election, is almost impossible. In a place like N Korea you can easily do it, where voting is mandatory despite there being one person to vote for , because there are zero checks in place for the ruling government and they can just say whatever they feel like, but that doesn't matter anyway because in those situations it is all a dog & pony show anyway. It isn't an election in any real sense.
Now, what theoretically is possible in the United States is for a president to lose both the popular vote and the electoral college, not concede to the winner, and for that person to still be sworn in as POTUS. Yup. I recommend this video for anyone with an interest in the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWRhLW7Y8w&lc=z22iepaptkuagjgdbacdp432cbtchjudagzqinjaawtw03c010c
This seems extremely unlikely with Trump, but always possible with a future president. At any rate, given that the world is in the Wild West of Social Media Misinformation and it probably will be mired in it for quite some time, it would be nice if these ominous loopholes were closed at some point. Democracy isn't as secure today as what it was just 10 years ago.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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fred79
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 04, 2020 03:08 AM |
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bs upon bs upon bs. you people are really desperate. what i can't wrap my head around, is WHY you're so desperate. you'd think that Trump physically assaulted one of your close relatives, as much as you people hate him. it's so very sad to watch this ever-increasing display of insecurity. i wish the situation wasn't so grave that i could laugh about it.
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Blizzardboy
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posted December 04, 2020 04:03 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Will be interesting to see how Republicans will solve this, he was both a burden and an exceptional dynamic for them. The fact that Biden will probably be physically fried in four years will also play some role.
Trump Jr, more than likely. Unless they both enter, which would be interesting to say the least.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 04, 2020 07:53 AM |
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artu said:
@Zenofex
What are you talking about dude, they went to court and claimed no fraud. That is a fact no matter which media you choose to follow. Trump started rumors of fraud even before the election, “they’re gonna do it” etc, which indicates he was going to play this game no matter the outcome. Now, he says he’ll race again four years later which means he knows there will be no calling off the results, he’s just trying to put mud in the water. It’s just amazing how so many people take the bait. I mean, I expect it from fred, since it is how he percieves the world but to anybody with a level minded perspective, the situation turned into non-sense for quite while now. But since your original position was “election fraud is what to expect, it is default strategy,” I’m really not sure if you are in the right mind to see that either, I dont know if this is some post-communist country perspective in which you are used to corruption at all levels but in a country like U.S., it would be a huge thing if there was actual fraud, biggest kind of scandal and things have pretty much calmed down officially, if you put aside the blogger/conspiracy site noise. Of course, there are still people who even claim moonlandings didnt happen or “there were no planes” despite all the refutation and investigation results, so I’m guessing there will be people who will stick to the idea no matter what but nothing serious will come out of this after this point.
Putting the moon-landing nonsense and potential voter fraud in a "democratic country" in one category is somewhere between naive and intellectually dishonest and as I'm pretty sure you're well-aware that they're no relatives, I'd say you're just sticking to some generic textbook recipes of how "democracy should look like". Tell you what though - since I don't have much time to write long posts regarding why I think you are following a very wrong line of thought, let's do it another way - name me 5 ways in which "election fraud is very hard to pull out" with specific technical details and safeguards - legal, physical, all sorts, but without Googling for info or trying to find it in another way. Just what you know right here, right now. Need to know what's the base for your claims.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 04, 2020 08:46 AM |
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Zenofex, you are on the same bullsh!t line than fred, just with a different narrative. We are not debating some theoretical thing here.
This is about the US election. And the fact is, that the losing side claimed "fraud" right before the start and after the fact, but failed to present even ONE factual proof for the claim (which is what the courts say), although you can safely say that they tried. If they didn't find anything (with all their agenda and power) that would stand up at court, it is pretty safe to say that there IS NO PROOF TO FIND.
If there is no proof to find for some hypothesis, while this still doesn't rule out that there might have been fraud, but it's BASELESS SPECULATION, on the same level than religion. Is there a god? No proof, still.
Which is what's happening. It's more like a religious debate, if anything. The facts are plain.
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Gnomes2169
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posted December 04, 2020 09:17 AM |
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Alright, let me make a list of why it's hard to commit voter fraud in the USA... off the top of my head, since you decided to make that ridiculous restriction instead of, you know, allowing people to respond to you in a proper manner that would let them pull up the specific laws and restrictions that are universally present in the United States.
1) To vote in a federal election, you must be a citizen or legal resident. Period. You must have a Social Security number or a green card, and you must be able to verify this. It's a low bar, sure, but it's a safeguard regardless, because you can't just make up a new name and go to multiple poling placed claiming to be "Higueldo Monrique" and vote multiple times.
2) You must be able to provide proof that you live in the district that you are allowed to vote in. That means presenting a utilities bill with your name and address on it, and once you do so, you are entered in as having voted in that district, which means that you cannot then vote in another district without creating red flags.
3) Regular review of voters and purges of dead people from voter rolls. Typically this is done regularly, to ensure that people cannot impersonate deceased individuals. Sometimes the purges make mistakes and purge people that are still alive who share the same name as someone who died, which is why there is typically a grace period of a few months between a purge and a major election. And during the election itself, anyone who is legally declared dead that casts a ballot will pop up as a red flag in the system, and the ballot is not counted until it can be confirmed if the person is alive or dead.
4) The presentation of valid state or federal identification cards, be they driver's licenses, student ID's or literal voter registration cards (in certain states these are provided) at the ballot site. To make it even harder to fake that you are someone else. While these are not necessary in every state, they are required in enough (and every major battleground state from the 2020 election) that this still easily makes the list.
5) In the case of absentee ballots, the ballots that are sent out are recorded, and the people that receive them have the ballot they are given monitored. Not like a spy drone for every ballot kind of monitoring, mind you, more of a "If a mail-in ballot is sent from this address and this person, then that person has cast their vote and cannot vote anywhere else, just like if they had cast a ballot in person" kind of thing. While sometimes there is a clerical error and a person is sent multiple ballots, no one is allowed to submit more than one ballot, and because of clerical errors like that absentee ballot submissions are put under a high level of scrutiny to ensure that 1 person gets 1 vote.
Note: If you get an absentee ballot but do not submit it, you can still vote in person... but if you do vote in person, you are required to destroy your absentee ballot without submission. You cannot get an absentee ballot and then bring it to a polling place to submit it, you have to wait in line to get an in-person ballot like everyone else.
6) Poll counters are made of a bi-partisan committee, with the actual counters working in close proximity with one another in thoroughly mixed groups to ensure that no Tom-duckery is going on. There are also watchers that effectively act as bodyguards and bouncers, keeping the poll counting location secure, removing counters once counting is done for the day, ensuring that fights do not escalate, and generally keeping counters from performing any blatantly fraudulent acts (such as shredding ballots, or just not counting ballots) from occurring.
Note: Poll watchers do not second-check to make sure that counters are tallying ballots properly. That is not their job. The counters are already ensuring that the ballots are not being miscounted by watching each other and double-checking each other's work, because, again, they are a bi-partisan committee and that is literally their job.
7) With all of the above making submitting even a single fraudulent vote a monumental undertaking, one might forget that the punishment for committing the crime of voter fraud is also a deterrent. Because that's what laws are supposed to be, deterrents for specific harmful acts. And the law comes down with an iron fist in this case, with a punishment of 15-20 years of federal prison time for each case of voter fraud (read; every single improperly cast ballot) that a person submits. The difficulty of the act along with the punishment if caught (and it's really, really not that hard to catch) makes it basically worthless to try to commit voter fraud. Which is why it's always been an insignificant factor in every governmental election in the USA, where the election fraud rate is ~.01% of all votes cast, and does not tend to favor one party over the other.
8) And in the case when an election is close (within .5% for either candidate) there is either an immediate and mandatory recount, to ensure that the clerical errors are corrected and that all ballots in the entire state are found (most common in Presidential and Federal Office elections,) or there is a run-off election where constituents are told they need to vote again by a different date, because... actually run-off elections are awful, dumb and bad, and pretty much only happen in Republican districts because Republicans tend to do better in them for a variety of reasons (no mail-in ballots + more fervent voter base + Republicans send out more letters/ emails when a runoff race occurs + the voter base tends to either be wealthy enough to afford to not work, or work jobs that leave them with a more open schedule, etc.) Runoffs might legitimately be worse than just accepting the base results as perfect and 100% error-free in a close election... but they are mostly kept to smaller, more local elected offices, with only a few states even allowing federal elections to use them (and even then, no state allows for run-offs with the Presidential election.)
... But of course, this year was different somehow, right? After all, there was a massive conspiracy that is nebulous, unspecific, and requires the entirety of multiple state governments, the FBI, the Justice department, the investigative departments of the Executive branch (all appointed or left in place by Trump, mind you,) the entire Election committee (ALL appointed by Trump,) about 1/3 of the CIA, the Venezuelan government for 50 years, and pretty much every in-person poll counter (though that one is only poll counters in specific states,) to be in on it. A group that borders on somewhere around the magnitude of 3.5 million people, all of which were in on it, supported it fanatically, never told a single soul about it, and executed their parts flawlessly and left literally zero evidence behind that could reveal their dastardly plot. Evidence that should be so substantial and abundant that no lawyer should allege anything except fraud, and that should make it a reputable law firm's wet dream to represent before a court (side note, there are zero reputable law firms even willing to represent Trump in court anymore, and scores of cases had to be dropped out of hand because there was no evidence to substantiate the claims, and no firms willing to go to court without hard evidence.)
Because that's entirely possible and believable. Because apparently the news is so untrustworthy that... we have to default to believing literal impossible things before we even consider that they might be right about one thing from time to time. And we can't even entertain the notion that the lying grifter in the White House might be lying in order to grift money from his supporters ($175,000,000 of the money raised from his supporters since the election, so far, has gone directly to Trump to help him pay his debts from the election and other sources.)
There is no both sides-ing this one. Trump is knowingly lying and irresponsibly drumming up fears and doubts in a secure elective process, and he is doing so for his own personal benefit, to the detriment of the stability of the country. Trump is in the wrong. Period. No court has found merit in the claims and grievances that his legal teams (which, again, have almost universally abandoned him) have presented, no investigative agency has uncovered some dastardly plot or massive flaw, hell even the fraud-detection math equations say things went fine and fall perfectly into expected bell curves if you apply them properly... Supporting the president in this instance is just wrong. And takes willfully denying every investigation, every court result, and every safeguard to US democracy in order to do so.
Just... please. God. Try to understand that Trump is wrong.
Trump is wrong.
That's it. Don't have to say he's the worst president (even if one could argue he's at least as bad as Taft...) or that he's the antichrist, or that he's a terrible person. Just... good god, at least accept that he's wrong about the election fraud and that he lost, fair and square.
... I need to take up drinking.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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OhforfSake
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posted December 04, 2020 10:33 AM |
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fred79 said:
@ ohfor:
testimony counts as evidence; even if that testimony contradicts itself from the ground up. speaking from experience here. someone's testimony can end your life. at least in regular court, testimony is a HUGE deal.
Then how can we ever trust the courts to be just?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2020 12:44 PM |
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@ Zenofex
I see Gnomes has beat me to it but in short, I’d simply say serious countermeasures being applied by too many parties that have conflict of interest and unlike some totalitarian state, you cant just shut them up or imprison them or silence them in any other way.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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