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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 14, 2022 12:02 AM |
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I do remember that old story but I believe you highlighted wrong things.
Quote:
The debate over treatment of the far right came to a head after Zaborona published its article describing what it said was evidence of StopFake’s bias. The evidence included social media photographs showing Marko Suprun, who hosts StopFake’s English-language video program about Russian disinformation, meeting with two Ukrainian nationalist musicians at a gathering in 2017.
The songs of one of the musicians, Arseniy Bilodub, include “Heroes of the White Race” and, referring to the Holocaust, “Six Million Words of Lies.” Anton Shekhovtsov, an external lecturer at the University of Vienna who studies far-right movements in Europe, said in an interview that he did not see StopFake itself as a far-right organization, “but I don’t think that they are nonpartisan.”
StopFake countered that Zaborona was employing “the fallacy of guilt by association” in presenting the photographs as evidence of far-right connections on the part of Mr. Suprun. Mr. Suprun did not respond to requests for comment.
You know, I see there is some misunderstanding and I hate it when you guys say something like "impossible for an Ukrainian fact-checker about war in Ukraine to not have at the very least a small bias". Most likely, you are right and they do have a bias, but that's not the point. Or when you say something like "not everything what Russian says are lies". Of course, sometimes they say truth. But that's also not the point. The point is in the actual argumentation of the specific case used by different parties. Like even if Ukrainian fact-checking is completely biased, then sometimes they are still RIGHT. So instead of saying let's ignore that because they are biased, maybe you should first read their arguments and maybe they make sense? This is actually what I did with Adrien Bocquet - honestly there was some mistrust when I started watching, but well, even if Adrien is completely biased or bribed whatever, then he still might be RIGHT, so well let's listen to his arguments, and then the arguments were only based on his word, right? The statements were bold, but the evidence was clearly not enough (for me), and they also contradicted with my previous knowledge and experience, which made me believe he was lying. Up to the point that I started hesitating whether he has been to Ukraine at all.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 14, 2022 01:29 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 01:30, 14 May 2022.
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ihor said:
I believe you highlighted wrong things
I highlighted the things you don't want to see.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 14, 2022 04:03 AM |
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 14, 2022 12:10 PM |
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@Galaad
Oh come on, you highlighted the things that are related to those musicians without even highlighting the musicians while I highlighted the things that are related to StopFake. In the same text.
Also, your research on StopFake stopped immediately when you saw far-fetched links to neo-nazi musicians, which aren't even linked to their publications. At the same time, StopFake for example was honored by NDI in 2017 "for their work to protect democracy by combating disinformation". Three most important words here - FOR THEIR WORK. AFAIK there were some other awards in 2014, 2016 and 2021, and the fact that they were chosen by Facebook also means something.
So if StopFake are nazis, then they must be really trustworthy nazis.
But you seem to miss the point again!
What I want to say is that even if StopFake is a neo-nazi organization (which isn't true), even if they are not trustworthy (which isn't true, IMO) then we should still check their arguments on the specific topic. Providing we are curious to find out more.
Can we agree on this?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 14, 2022 12:29 PM |
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But shouldn't be kill the Nazis. They are a minority as homophobia is more. We have Ku Klux Klan, black power, etc. No good reason for war. Yes Nazis in Ukraine, no interested me. Finland banned Nazi organization, but no German style, what can go to prison. Yes we've seen injustice in USA and South Africa, for example, etc But no war against Nazis.. Ukraine can do own law as Germany, Finland, so Russian dirty bone box keeps shut..?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 14, 2022 12:30 PM |
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ndi, who's hq is in dc, is run by the democratic party, and when you go to donate, you donate in the name of an ex-government jew.
lol, totally legit.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted May 14, 2022 03:06 PM |
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How many Nazi's are there in Finland anyways?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted May 14, 2022 03:13 PM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 15, 2022 09:50 AM |
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Of course, I listen to everyone. I am only being cautious, neo-nazism is a real problem in Ukraine and I see the fact-checker is buddies with people singing about the white race and denying the holocaust, pardon my skepticism. 
That's not the Kremlin telling me, the NYT is not exactly its best friend!
Azov has nazi symbols on their banner, even their wikipedia page openly says they are neo-nazis. That's not tolerable. Again I repeat it certainly does not justify Russia's invasion, and on that you have all my sympathy.
The point I do keep in mind is the Poroshenko's video, I don't speak Ukrainian but if you assure me it's a translation manipulation I can believe that. Then maybe Bonnel was manipulated too then, still doesn't invalidate the testimonies from her movie, from which I don't remember Stopfake giving proof they are fake, only assumptions.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 15, 2022 09:21 PM |
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Galaad said:
neo-nazism is a real problem in Ukraine
This is exactly what Russians are saying and at the same time, this is where I disagree. I mean I agree that there are neo-nazi organizations, but they are marginal, they don't have people's support. Why do I say that?
1. Look at the election results, far-right parties support <2% (compare with other countries)
2. The president is Jewish.
3. Jewish leaders deny that there are critical anti-semitic issues
4. Some of the neo-nazi organizations are fake organizations supported and financed by Russia.
5. The number of neo-nazi organizations in Ukraine isn't that different from other European countries. Link
For #3 and #4 from the list above, I'm adding the same link again about what Ukrainian Jews say.
People think that you walk the streets and see neo-nazis everywhere in Ukraine. No, that is not the case, trust me.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 15, 2022 09:48 PM |
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Oh, and
6. As in some other countries, there is a law in Ukraine that condemns communist and Nazi totalitarian regimes and forbids propaganda of these ideologies.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 15, 2022 09:55 PM |
- penalty applied by Galaad on 16 May 2022. |
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The difference is that you won't find in the majority of developed countries (actually I think not a single one, show me if I'm wrong please) someone claiming the "white race has to lead a crusade and take over the Semitics", then be allowed to create a party, an army regiment and also join the parliament. The percentage isn't important, but how the system is permeable or not to Neo-Nazi ideology. And it clearly is.
And saying "the Russians also tell this" means nothing but pitiful attempt to discredit someone using kinda authority argument. Why Russians should be less credible than Americans, Ukrainians, French or any else.
Also, is not because there are many or a few neo-nazis in Ukraine that Russia or any else should invade, let's make clear. But I have enough of this bulsh!t pretending that everything Russians claim is a lie. I see both sides competing for the Pinocchio of the year.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 15, 2022 10:02 PM |
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Which Russian claims are true? I don't see any.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 15, 2022 11:02 PM |
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ihor said:
2. The president is Jewish.
3. Jewish leaders deny that there are critical anti-semitic issues
all this time, the jews were the ones referred to as nazis... 
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 12:08 AM |
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Edited by ihor at 00:24, 16 May 2022.
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Quote:
The difference is that you won't find in the majority of developed countries (actually I think not a single one, show me if I'm wrong please) someone claiming the "white race has to lead a crusade and take over the Semitics", then be allowed to create a party, an army regiment and also join the parliament. The percentage isn't important, but how the system is permeable or not to Neo-Nazi ideology. And it clearly is.
The difference is that you won't find a developed country that was attacked by Russia.
Oh, and if you say that percentage isn't important, then here you are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_white_nationalist_organizations
There are tons of white nationalist organizations, in different countries as you can see. As you can see many of them are NOT banned.
How do you like the flag of these guys for example ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_(United_States)
Now I'll tell you a small story about a hero called Andrew who lived in one of those countries.
The country lived peacefully, but one day something bad happened. A neighboring country decided to attack, annexed a piece of the country, and started a war in another part. Andrew was a white suprematist and was a member of one of those white nationalist organizations. Being a nationalist, he immediately decided to take arms and defend his country against an aggressor. His country military was in bad shape and the country vitally needed volunteers, so paramilitary batallions were allowed. Andrew did not think for a second and along with some of his white nationalist friends he started one of many such batallions. Some other people, not white nationalists, also joined the battalion and it fought as it could. Many other batallions were also created and effective during the war.
Being a leader of a batallion, Andrew became famous. But not for his white suprematism past, instead for his victories on the battlefield. Later on when the fighting wasn't so intense, there was a parliamentary election so he decided to try himself in a single-member district. He was a known person and won his candidacy quite easily, he didn't even needed to campaign much and not many people knew who was Andrew before the war, which was good for him. Interestingly there were also other batallion leaders apart Andrew, who were not white nationalists, but they also managed to become members of parliament.
Andrew wasn't a great member of parliament, he missed many sessions and wasn't very active. He became boring, he didn't say any sensational white nationalists things any more. Andrew even started denying that he said anything about white race supremacy in the past. Unfortunately for Andrew, he didn't become a member of parliament after the next election, but he decided to start a party. Unlike the white nationalist organization he used to be a member in the past, the party was now officially registered, but it was also boring. The program of the party did not include anything outrageous, but rather included standard far-right policies similar to those in other neighboring countries.
History doesn't know if Andrew ever became popular again or no, but his chances weren't great because his country never liked far right. Then something important happened. A neighboring country attacked again! This time with full force and people started talking about Andrew again. Is it his chance?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 12:25 AM |
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what a great story. compelling and rich. hanging on your every word. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 16, 2022 06:55 AM |
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Sal said:
Why Russians should be less credible than Americans, Ukrainians, French or any else.
Well, considering they are the invading force, it would be wise to double check all of their claims, since invading forces are usually in the habit of manipulating anything in order to justify the invasion.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 16, 2022 10:35 AM |
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I agree. But in this case, there is nothing to check, their sources had been either closed or banned. Then when the barrier created by the system lets slip one info at once, we are told either is a random guy, a pro Putin or "this is what russian say", to sum "it is a lie". Enough.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 16, 2022 10:55 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 10:57, 16 May 2022.
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Sal, just like JJ you've been penalized for bypassing the langage filter yet again.
@Ihor
People don't think that, we are all aware more than 90% of Ukrainians are not nazis. But you evade Sal's point which is correct, you can't compare groupuscules with an army regiment or sits in the parliament.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 16, 2022 11:28 AM |
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He hasn't got a point because there are extreme right-wing parties all over the place in Europe, in France as well as in Germany. And let's not forget that the Azov regiment is the result of the Russian attack in 2014. Since it's foundation it has become part of the regular army and has become less "nazi". Show me an army, ANY army that doesn't have extreme right-wing nationalist elements, especially after an attack on that country.
The question isn't always what people say so much than what they do. Wouldn't the JEWS be the first, both the Ukrainian as well as Israel who'd cut ties, if there was a serious problem?
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