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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 06:47 PM |
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No, I am most moral 
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 06:53 PM |
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This war wasn't necessary. The current Russian rhetorics is all around 'preventive measures'. But the problem with that is that you will never know what would have happened if Russia just withdrew troops from the Ukrainian border. You should understand the difference between Russia attacks and Russia is being attacked. I seriously doubt that fact that things were too desperate for Russia. NATO would never attack Russia first. And if they did, Russia would have plenty of time to get itself prepared. This war isn't even about NATO, it's solely about Ukraine. Russia just wanted Ukraine territory. That's it. The first target was Kyiv, that tells a lot of true intensions of Russia.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 06:58 PM |
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A lot of extra words. I didn’t say anything about the threats from NATO, but I said about experiments on the psyche of Ukrainians on a countrywide scale. I repeat once again - this is a civil war in which Russia is on the right side.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:03 PM |
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Ben, don't you believe in diplomacy at all. The EU diplomats almost got on their knees begging Russia to come to their senses. But Russia is too proud. Now we see that Russia doesn't joke, but what the price of this 'show'?
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:04 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
Russia just wanted Ukraine territory.
Regarding the taking of territory - I think Russia will not take territories with a disloyal population. It's pointless because it causes too many problems. Surely there will be referendums for new territories. It is not certain that these will be absolutely fair referendums - but, I repeat, they are unlikely to be held in completely disloyal territories.
AlexSpl said:
That's it. The first target was Kyiv, that tells a lot of true intensions of Russia.
You brilliant military strategist... It was a distraction, because it is unrealistic to hope to take a huge city with an army of 50,000. It is possible that Russia hoped for an internal coup in Kyiv - this could be. But those who believe that the Russian military from the very beginning counted on the most optimistic scenario are far from the army. The military always comes from the worst-case scenarios.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:05 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 19:06, 13 May 2022.
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AlexSpl said:
Ben, don't you believe in diplomacy at all. The EU diplomats almost got on their knees begging Russia to come to their senses. But Russia is too proud.
Well, stop teasing me already. In short, you know, we have diametrically opposed opinions.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:09 PM |
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Quote:
You brilliant military strategist... It was a distraction, because it is unrealistic to hope to take a huge city with an army of 50,000.
I don't think so. They would have taken Kyiv if it was 'loyal' to Russia as you said. Do you think Russian military would have missed such an opportunity? They tried, hardly, btw.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:12 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
I don't think so. They would have taken Kyiv if it was 'loyal' to Russia as you said. Do you think Russian military would have missed such an opportunity? They tried, hardly, btw.
Well, to some extent, I said the same thing. I don’t know all the methods of the military, perhaps when planning they work out a “tree of options”. But the fact that the worst options are always taken into account - you can be sure.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:23 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 19:27, 13 May 2022.
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To end all this mayhem Russia should decipher what it does mean by demilitarization. Not even Russians understand what it means. You probably know that now Ukraine wants Crimea back. And, as we understand, this is unacceptable scenario for Russia. Morever, this would be the defeat of Russian special operation. Why did I remember diplomacy? Because now it's the only option, until this war's shadow covers Russia itself and NATO countries. In the best scenario for Ukraine Russia will loose Crimea. And Ukraine now is supported by the US and NATO. Tomorrow this war might go full-scale if both sides don't stop meaningless aggression. I doubt that anyone wants it.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:35 PM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 19:36, 13 May 2022.
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Can you explain to me how crazy European politicians generally imagine the defeat of Russia? How can a country with such a nuclear arsenal lose? No one asked the question - why was it necessary to create nuclear weapons if under no circumstances can you use them? Realistically, European politicians are weak-minded. Do they really understand what they're joking about? Naturally, I am not talking about the use of nuclear weapons on the territory of Ukraine, because it is obvious that if you do not take outside help, then Russia is much stronger than Ukraine without any nuclear weapons.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:43 PM |
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Ben80 said:
civil war in Ukraine
Facepalm.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:45 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 19:46, 13 May 2022.
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And don't think NATO is weak. Germany alone defeated all Europe in a blink of an eye. Does Russia want to demilitarize Ukraine like it once demilitarized Nazi Germany? To create two pro-Russian republics like it was with the Eastern Germany and to build a new wall? I don't understand Russia's intensions. Look at Belarus. And think about why it is pro-Russian. It's not because you are shelling it. It's because you treat well its independence. Many would say that Belarus is a puppet country. Well, some sort of. But it is a friendly country. Again, why? And why does Ukraine with mentality not so different from Belarusian is Russia's enemy?
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:50 PM |
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ihor said:
Facepalm.
Why do you think so many people left Ukraine for Russia after the Western coup in 2014? Do you think they like your Nazi snow? And even after the start of the special operation in 2022, hundreds of thousands of people left Ukraine for the "aggressor country", although the Kyiv regime prevented this as best they could. Real Ukrainians live in the east and consider themselves one people with Russians. I am familiar with those.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:56 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
Look at Belarus. And think about why it is pro-Russian. It's not because you are shelling it. It's because you treat well its independence.
Look, it seems to me that at the beginning of the 20th century, after the communists came to power, there was a certain conflict between the "city" and the "countryside" (there was a very powerful industrialization). The "city" used the "village" for its own purposes. This is apparently part of the conflicts between Moscow and Ukraine / the Baltic states. But for some reason there have always been good relations with Belarus (although Belarus is also a conditional "village"). I do not know why 
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 07:58 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 19:59, 13 May 2022.
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Well, Russia is a big "village" if you exclude Moscow and St. Petersburg  Actually, more "village" than any actual Belarusian village.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 08:01 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
Well, Russia is a big "village" if you exclude Moscow and St. Petersburg Actually, more "village" than any actual Belarusian village.
I did not mean that. I will clarify. Industrialization centers were created both in Belarus and Ukraine (huge industrial enterprises). But Moscow initiated their creation. And the locals were used to living in a peasant way before that. I think there is some conflict here.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 08:04 PM |
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Let's take, for example, Lvov, where the lair of those damn Bandera people . It is obvious that these people are accustomed to living on a peasant basis. And the USSR built the Lvov bus plant for them (by the way, a very successful plant in the old days - it set some records).
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 08:14 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 20:19, 13 May 2022.
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Lviv de facto belongs to Europe. It's hard to tell where the true Europe begins, but it's fact that people prefer European style of life. I don't want to raise another holy war here, but just think about why children of Russian politicians and businessmen prefer to study and live in Europe (hello, Peter the Great). Don't you think that Europe is a magnet not only for the elite, if it's a magnet for the children of elites?
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 08:19 PM |
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Right, Lviv is Europe. So they would be engaged in European affairs, and not scoff at real Ukrainians living in the east.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 13, 2022 10:47 PM |
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ihor said:
@Gallad
Is the only fault of Ukrainian fact checkers that they are Ukrainians?
Looks like it's not the only fault.
But in general it is of course impossible for an Ukrainian fact-checker about war in Ukraine to not have at the very least a small bias. Take it the other way around : Would you trust a Russian fact-checker about a war involving Russia? I bet the answer is no, so why does it only go one way?
I'll just quote this from the NYT :
Quote:
The debate over treatment of the far right came to a head after Zaborona published its article describing what it said was evidence of StopFake’s bias. The evidence included social media photographs showing Marko Suprun, who hosts StopFake’s English-language video program about Russian disinformation, meeting with two Ukrainian nationalist musicians at a gathering in 2017.
The songs of one of the musicians, Arseniy Bilodub, include “Heroes of the White Race” and, referring to the Holocaust, “Six Million Words of Lies.” Anton Shekhovtsov, an external lecturer at the University of Vienna who studies far-right movements in Europe, said in an interview that he did not see StopFake itself as a far-right organization, “but I don’t think that they are nonpartisan.”
StopFake countered that Zaborona was employing “the fallacy of guilt by association” in presenting the photographs as evidence of far-right connections on the part of Mr. Suprun. Mr. Suprun did not respond to requests for comment.
Thanks for reposting the Poroshenko vid.
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