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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 01:31 PM |
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To clarify - I didn't say Putin is Hitler or Russia is Nazi Germany.
PUTIN said he wanted to denazify Ukraine, and what I said was, the Nazis are not sitting in Kyev, but in Moscow, which simply meant, that if there was a country that should be "denazified" it would be Russia more than the Ukraine, because what Putin does with the propaganda involved is reminiscent of what the 3rd Reich did. Or possibly, of what ITALY did, except there is no one they can call for help now to unscrew things.
At this point, Russia has fascist government structures and tendencies - but of course Russia has its own definition of fascist and nazi, born out of history and used every time they want a reaction from the people.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 12, 2022 01:59 PM |
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@artu,
Dunno why you're asking me. I only gave my standpoint on differences between Russia and West - I mean they clearly believe in different values, I am not defending their stance nor ours. Beside, you know I totally disagree on patriarchate as being something consciously oppressive, but rather consider it as a necessary structure for surviving during specific periods, from specific development stages of humanity.
In your most recent example you removed patriotism and kept patriarchate and spirituality. Or spirituality, in this example, can't go without patriotism, because it is about your spiritual roots. So yes, when people, as a group within one identity, express their wishes that their culture remains paramount, they are usually called xenophobes and right after, fascists.
That's reality in France and not only, UK, US, Canada and so on. I don't know about Germany but noticing how our cheerful German comrade is constantly flickering around the Godwin point, I suspect them being even more crooked on the trail of decadence.
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Era II mods and utilities
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 02:01 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 14:07, 12 May 2022.
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i see ihor is too afraid to answer the questions. what kind of man is too frightened to answer simple questions? what kind of man is too frightened to even attempt to find out the answer to simple questions? especially when, the answers regard his own country?
nevertheless, if you guys haven't figured it out by now, calling someone a "nazi"/racist/whatever is the easiest way to get people on your side against that person, through virtue-signalling. they either choose to believe that person decrying "nazi", or they don't. if the majority of western media is telling everyone to not believe that person decrying "nazi", then the people who consume that media is most likely not willing to believe that person. but if the mass media is calling someone a "nazi", like how they described trump on numerous occasions (among a lot of other words), then they'll know they are "correct" in calling that person a "nazi".
really, i can't get over how ADULTS can be so blind. "nazi", among other conditioned phrases that hardly mean what they originally meant, is a buzzword of the globalists. funny, how it goes hand-in-hand with the people who supposedly made some attempt to wipe a section of the globalists out.
they say "nazi", and you all bark. just like pavlov's dog. "nazi", "racist", whatever buzzword they imprinted on you to label something for you to hate, it all works the same: to isolate their target for you, to direct your emotional animosity. it doesn't matter if it's for war, to get someone out of office, to isolate an opponent, whatever. what matters is, that you react to said word.
it's pitiful, that so many of the posts on this subject, decry the same bs. i TOLD you, they are both on the same side. they both serve the same masters. putin and zelensky go hand-in-hand.
what MATTERS, in ANYTHING the globalists do, is who BENEFITS from what's happening. WHO GETS THE 40 BILLION from the U.S.? WHO GETS CONTROL OF THE BIOLABS? who stands to benefit from what's happening? the people of ukraine? the people of russia? if neither benefit, WHO DOES???
but no, you guys are just going to keep pointing fingers and crying "nazi", over and over again. defeating each other, and defeating the people who stand to LOSE EVERYTHING. smart. real snowing smart.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 02:02 PM |
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Salamandre said:
@artu,
I don't know about Germany but noticing how our cheerful German comrade is constantly flickering around the Godwin point, I suspect them being even more crooked on the trail of decadence.
I think, firstly, this shows his poor education, and, secondly, the desire to live in an illusory, but comfortable world for him.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 02:55 PM |
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Fred, I don't see any point in discussing conspiracy theories, find somebody else.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 03:19 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 03:24 PM |
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Well, comrade Salamandre - wouldn't your spiritual roots be in Romania, depending on when you came to France, of course.
What ARE "spiritual roots", actually? For the individual person, I mean. Can you define them?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 12, 2022 03:26 PM |
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@Sal
I didnt deliberately leave it out but I think patriotism is a pretty vague concept anyway. You can take any ideology or policy and claim you are doing it out of love for your country and in the end it’s just some streched out abstraction. Nobody loves everything about their country or everyone in it. I can understand love of country in a more local scale, the actual town you live, your neighborhood, friends you know etc… But some distant province of Turkey, in practice, is no different to me than China in terms of love. Real love comes out of life experience, actual memories, not ideology. If patriotism is supporting your government or state politics no matter what, then it’s idiotic. And that’s how politicians, especially conservative ones use the term anyway, “be a patriot and support ME.” In that sense, as Samuel Johnson put it perfectly centuries ago, “patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”
(Also keep in mind that Turkey is and has always been an ultra-nationalist country, at least in rhetoric. The education, the political speeches, the masses… So any level-headed, sane person is quite fed up with words like patriotism, love of country, national pride etc. etc. Where you claim not to get enough of it, I am buried up to my neck to it.)
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 03:32 PM |
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ihor said:
Fred, I don't see any point in discussing conspiracy theories, find somebody else.
no, you have no interest in what's really guiding the conflict in your country. you'd rather react emotionally to an invasion and not know why your people are being treated like cannon-fodder in the first place. your people are being KILLED for the people running snow, and they're getting PAID off of your countymen's blood. and you don't care why. you just ACCEPT what you've been told by your enemy.
do you really think the general russian populace hate ukrainians enough to war with your people? get the snow out of here, dude.
streetwise people have a name for people like you and the others, who take the msm and your governments at their word. they call people like you "marks". because you fall for the stupidest snow. because you believe what you're told, like a child would.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 12, 2022 04:36 PM |
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artu, patriotism is not a vague concept.
We have the best example in Ukraine, right now. Strange that you can't grasp it in its most sacred form, where irrelevant and out of reality quotes can't wrap it.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 04:53 PM |
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Any country needs patriotism in one form or another if it wants to exist. What's really important is the implementation of patriotism. I prefer to love my country for its beauty and care for people, not for its military power. The true power is happy people who, obviously, don't want to loose their happiness
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 05:56 PM |
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Salamandre said:
in its most sacred form,
More mystical nonsense after the still undefined "spiritual roots".
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 12, 2022 07:00 PM |
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Salamandre said:
artu, patriotism is not a vague concept.
We have the best example in Ukraine, right now. Strange that you can't grasp it in its most sacred form, where irrelevant and out of reality quotes can't wrap it.
That’s really rich, after all of the apologism for Russia, you now label Ukraine’s resistance to Russia as sacred, cause it occasionally fits your narrative. Why do you emphasize all these details about the Russian side of the story and how western propaganda is this and that then? If Ukraine’s resistance is sacred, even if things that you object to are propaganda, they serve a sacred cause. Support them! That’s what your spiritual patriotism would require.
You were comparing political systems and the values they praise. Ukraine is in a condition of war. If you switch to reducing the concept of patriotism to self-defense when being attacked, yeah, sure, that level of “patriotism” can be considered quite concrete. But then, I’m sure countries like Germany and France that you excluded from supporting such patriotic values would also defend themselves if attacked by Russia or some other foreign country, quite fiercely I might add, so you have nothing to worry about.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted May 12, 2022 08:04 PM |
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France is attacked every day, the criminality due to north African uncontrolled and chaotic immigration is exploding. Yet I see only excuses and weak people gesticulating while mourning parents are digging graves.
I never apologized for Russia - I said responsibilities are multiple, that's different. I don't join the puppets pack, the pack is always wrong and see things way too simple.
What I say is be fair, eliminate USA from the equation because it did much worse and has no morale lessons to give. Step back from humiliating Russia more than necessary - like saying it is the only devil on earth, especially when you have no capability of fighting against and you also have a heavy history of endless wars, colonization and whatnot. I can't stand false righteous throwing tantrums.
What I see is weak leaders sending offensive weapons which will kill Russians, then whine when Putin, and he is right to do so, threatens them back. I don't want global war but I see everyone trying its best to finally get one.
That doesn't mean I don't see how patriotic and brave are Ukrainians, it is a life lesson for all the pseudo-intellectuals who keep bashing patriotism by confounding it with nationalism on purpose, whose harder challenge in their life was to get home after 10 beers at the local tavern.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 12, 2022 08:34 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:38, 12 May 2022.
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Such innuendos wont disappear the inconsistency of your stance. And of course immigrant crime can not be compared to international war, you again try to put in same issues in every single topic because you are almost fixated on immigrants.
Since late 19th century, that is, since people realized what modern warfare actually was and how it had nothing to do with chivalry or heroism, most intellectuals indeed scorn patriotism as a value. I can list direct quotes from people like Russell, Einstein, Wilde, Sartre and so on as tip of the iceberg but it would take too much time. There’s nothing “pseudo” about it.
And you very well know I critised U.S. Middle Eastern politics harshly here but it’s a whataboutism and not a very good one because Middle Eastern countries such as Iraq and Syria were already in war on a level not comparable to the conflicts of Russia-Ukraine and they did not have free elections and so on. But sure, Russia is not some evil sith force in a Star Wars movie against the Jedi West. That though, has nothing to do with patriotism or patriarchy or spiritualism being great things. You, on the other hand, seem to support Putin, not directly maybe, but quite transparently, because you sympathize with such values. It’s not about being fair. And I dont conclude this because you claim there is a Russian side to the story but because of the things you emphasize.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 12, 2022 09:53 PM |
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ihor said:
Facepalm. Another Anne Bonnel, lol. The guy probably has never been to Ukraine and talks about things he saw on videos. And then you say people have the brains to see propaganda from truth. Believing something random guys talk on pro-Putin radio without any evidence doesn't show great analytical skills.
Err, the only fault of Anne Bonnel is that she only shows one side of the coin, and the reason why she doesn't show the other is because she got banned from that side, and guess by who. The side she shows still exists. She also publicly said she isn't pro-Putin at all, she just relates what she saw (and recorded). I still haven't watched Adrien Bocquet's interview but Sud Radio is a serious media, not the biggest but still a mainstream one. Nothing to do with a "random dude on youtube". Both these people are the opposite of what you think, they precisely went there, Adrien as a military and the Anne-Laure as a war-reporter.
Keep in mind, war propaganda comes from all sides.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2022 10:12 PM |
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Just to get a little perspective, in the US there is a law that says, if someone commits a crime and the victim of the crime is fighting back, then collateral damage as a result of the fighting-back is on the aggressor.
Example: You rob a gas station. A guy is fighting back and while doing so, a bullet fired by them hits a bystander. Then that's on the robber.
You may or may not agree with that law, but it's pretty logical.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 12:00 AM |
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"sal, you're pro-russian-invasion because you don't join us in blindly 'supporting' ukraine like we're told. also, rampant illegal immigration is a good thing. why mention it?"
"patriotism is stupid"
"laws in the U.S. don't vary from state to state"
what great statements revealing intellect. you know you're not wasting your time, when you talk to these two...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 13, 2022 03:40 AM |
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Lol fred, I know you live in this conspirical flatland where every cubical argument is immediately turned into a square but that’s not what I said at all. I actually even underlined that’s not what I said, it’s one thing to be against immigration policies, it’s another thing to draw parallels with immigration crime and military invasion to conclude how the French are not patriotic like the Ukranians. It’s one thing to look at the situation from a reelpolitik perspective considering the Russian side’s position (which was one of the first things I did in this thread), yet another thing to continuously display imbalanced empathy to Russian side because of your political worldview and your resentment of European left-wing.
But hey, such nuance would be above your scope. Instead, why dont you chew on something simpler: As someone who loves conspirical slogans, for the last decade you’ve been constantly ranting about how “they” are trying to divide us, how “they” are trying to play us against each other and how “they” are not for the people. Yet, when someone told you how in today’s world, both envorinmental and economical problems are on a global scale and how their solutions would be impossible to solve through “patriotic” local divisions, you suddenly switch back to “well, we are all different folks.” Now, an intelligent conspiracy nut would reply, “when I speak of globalists, I mean the rich elite who run neoliberal economy not the globalization of world’s people” and then it would at least fit and be consistent but of course, your conspirical thinking is not even thinking, it’s just reacting. Reacting to how insignificant and meaningless your life has become and finding a scapegoat, the “they.”
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 13, 2022 04:29 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 04:36, 13 May 2022.
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i stopped reading a couple sentences in. the same people are responsible for the "migration" of foreigners into europe, as the current conflict in ukraine. they're all part of the same vile machine, and every bit of it is designed as intended; just not what they're telling people through the media they own. so you can spout bs until you're blue in the face about "nuance"; you don't even know (or care to know) the basics. which is, the governments/msm/corporations of the western world are owned by the banks and those affiliated with them; and they're the ones calling all the government/msm/corporate shots. you can try to call that a conspiracy THEORY, but there is actual proof of all of this; and you'll deny that very proof, or excuse it in some way, because you're trained to do so, like an animal, instead of a human being. i and others have posted links pointing out quite clearly how they all link up, and anyone with a brain could see that they all have exact same M.O. the people who want to get rich and stay in power, are allowed to do so as long as they abide by the globalist plan.
the ukraine/russia conflict is a dog and pony show, designed for different purposes than what the msm tells you. you people blindly believe proven liars spouting propaganda.
like i said, look to see who benefits. the populace, who are taking the brunt of everything their rulers do, certainly aren't. and what is a government, if not a supposed representation, and caring parent figure of, the people in the nation they are supposedly employed by?
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