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| Thread: The Middle East Violence... Israel vs Palestine |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Slava14
Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
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posted October 11, 2002 05:27 PM |
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Mind you, Gootch, but we, the people (not the government, which appears to live in their own little world) don't like the settlments too much, as because of a couple thousands of "settlers" we have major problems, since they refuse to leave the places.
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I'm always happy to help.. unless I'm helping myself.
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted October 11, 2002 05:34 PM |
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Quote:
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Americans root for the underdog(ironic isn't it)...and...Palestinians are terrorists.
Pretty simple, huh?
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And then it hit me...ethnic cleansing! The Israelis are practicing ethnic cleansing and my country hasn't said boo about it.
Israel has almost always operated with the knowledge that the U.S. would support them in whatever they did. More importantly, we'd keep the money flowing.
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(referral Sir_Stiven)
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Money is the power, not the type of the government. Fundemantalism, democracy, republic, tyranny... it does nt matter. the type of government is just an excuse to make up the background for your attack.
What was the reason for US to attack Afghanistan? To kill Laden, the head of the terrorists.
Do you really believe in that? Is Laden the main reason for the attack on Afghanistan?
What good the attack on Afgans provided? Nothing, but more antipathy against US. (the British excluded  )
It was just a show of power to collect more votes for Bush. It was just a show to satisfy the US citizens who thirsted for vengeance after 11/9.
The same goes for Iraq.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 11, 2002 05:43 PM |
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Quote:
What good the attack on Afgans provided? Nothing, but more antipathy against US. (the British excluded )
No my friend you have it completely wrong, we don't hate the americans because of Afghanistan.............
We've hated them much longer than that
Slava - Nice to see an Israeli who can twig that some things his government (and past ones) have done are causing resentment!
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted October 11, 2002 06:51 PM |
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Quote:
Gootch's entire post.
Tell it true, Brother Gootch!
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted October 11, 2002 07:05 PM |
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You cannot talk to people who strap bombs to their children and send them into malls to blow up.
It's funny that the suicide bombers are usually from poorer families and that you never see the children of prominate arabs blowing themselves up. It must be nice to sit in your palace, paid for by mainly US and Western Europe money, and write a check to some poor bastard who just watched his kid blow himself to pieces.
I hope that money keeps them warm at night, replacing the sounds of grandchildren. I hope the pride of having a legacy of murder keeps them happy in their old age.
The foolish young ones are convinced that Allah will reward them for their act of faith, but don't they realize that Allah might be pissed if they murder his chosen people?
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 11, 2002 10:09 PM |
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First I would like to say that I agree 100% with Bjorn, Slava and Oldtimer. But I don't want to keep proving the same point over and over again using different examples because it's quite obvious that we will not convince anyone.
The next thing I have to comment about is how you think that because we lived in Israel our opinion is biased. I have to say that it is not true! Sometimes you have to be there to know! Take the death camps of WWII for example. When Jewish refugees were escaping from them and telling the governments about what was happening in those camps, their reply was that "the opinion is biased and you are all exaggerating...". But you can't compare what a government say to personal opinions can you? Many say you can't but those people often don't realize the impact governments have on our lives. We are all targets of propaganda, all of our lives are based on what we learn from the news, from schools, from our parents - what else is there? But all of these factors are so easily influenced my the government! We think what they want us to think.
To illustrate this idea (not my personal idea, so many people have said it before) I would like to refer to the Soviet Union. I have to say that I believe in many communist ideas and have a certain amount of respect for the USSR but I am also well aware of the huge mistakes they made. At that time, the government almost literally closed the country and made it a small and private world. That meant that it was almost impossible to get in or out, and that applied to letters and news as well as people. So all of those citizens who lived there knew nothing but what they saw on the news and learned in schools - and they saw and learned what was convenient for the government. Among other things they also learned that Israel was an 'evil' country, they had the exact same arguments that you guys are mentioning. They believed in those things, and all of the Jews in the USSR were ashamed of their heritage and surprised by the actions of their people. My own great grandmother often said "how can our people do this? They are killing those innocent Arabs for no reason and making all of us look bad!". Only when the union collapsed and the people were once more fully aware of what was happening around the world did they see that Israel was defending itself, that the Palestinian freedom fighters are terrorists, that Israel only kills when it has no choice and does everything it can to achieve peace.
I'm not saying that our governments went as far as this, and I know that many of the posters that are against Israel read foreign news and listen to other opinions but I am still sure that we are nothing more than pawns in this cruel game that the governments are playing.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted October 11, 2002 10:30 PM |
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mmm well written post IYY.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted October 11, 2002 11:16 PM |
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1. Itīs wrong to treat women bad.
2. Itīs wrong to trick kids into blowing themselves up.
3. Itīs wrong to attack civilians.
I think these are points that few ppl with disagree with.
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HeyYou
Known Hero
and beloved food provider.
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posted October 11, 2002 11:20 PM |
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#2 depends on the kids.
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"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
~ Hanlon's Razor
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 11, 2002 11:51 PM |
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Firstly I'd like to make a distinction that may not have been clear from my earlier arguments:
I do not and never will support the terror organisations of any country. Terrorists are scum, I'd say that about any of them, IRA, Bin Laden, PLO, you name it I hate them. Anyone who attacks with no or little care for innocent civilians is scum, there is no argument there.
My main argument is not to justify the attacks, far from it. I simply believe that to obtain even a chance of peace one side has to be above violence as a means to solve the problems. I also believe BOTH sides have to come to terms with what irritates or annoys the other. To claim either side has done no wrong or is perfect is simply untrue. Sure I agree israel is the lesser by far of the two evils, but seriously that much hatred does not grow in a people who have no reason for it.
Frankly I agree Israel has shown a lot of patience and yes Arafat should be held to account for allowing recent events to go this far, but to say israel did not annoy the people of palestine by taking land promised to them, making a considerable percentage of their people refugees in an area where no-one cared for them and other things. I am not saying this to support their violence, but to stop them, you have to understand them and WHY they hate israel so much, beyond the simple indoctrination of the people of the area. Once you learn this (bitter as it may be) you can work on ways of stopping these reasons if possible, but to just simply say oh well it's all their fault achieves nothing and never will.
And in this blame I include the western nations for their continual and unquestioning support for Israel. When they occupied palestinian lands this year without allowing any outside observers for many days what did we in the west do? Complain a bit and ask them nicely to allow observers in! What did that acheive, nothing so the US sent an envoy there, but he went on a magical mystery tour of the area finally arriving in Israel having given them just enough time to carry out token withdrawls without loss of face! Hardly what I'd call making sure that justice was being done. Now I say this not to question whether or not Israel carried out war crimes during that period because frankly I don't know, but it's just an example of the way the western world all too often allows both sides and Israel in particular a completely free hand without and observation of either side taking place.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 12, 2002 12:54 AM |
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You say that Israel takes the land from the Palestinians, but land is a very reletive term. As I said, that land did not belong to the palastenians for a very long time, and before that it belonged to many other civilazations and countries - the palestinians do not have any more right to be on that land than the Jews, British, Turks, Greeks or any other country that owned that land before. We can keep talking about who owned that land first, or who owned it last, or if anyone has ever truly owned it, but I don't think it's a good idea. I think it's better to look at what is done with the land. Ever since the state of Israel was formed (and a bit before that), Israili farmers were working on that harsh land and improving it, cities were build, everything became more productive and organized. At the same time the Palestinians spend all of their time and money (and don't tell me they have none, because they do) on war. Instead of focusing their energy for construction they use it for destruction. Instead of providing their children with education they arm them with guns! Do you think that they deserve this little piece of land? Do you think that once they get it they will stop training terrorists? Think again - this is the kind of life they lived for a very long time, far before the state of Israel was formed.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 12, 2002 03:31 AM |
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You misunderstand me, I don't think it can be solved by handing them land all over the place and thinking this will solve problems when it won't. I cited land as an issue that they have a problem with because they have lived in that area for centuries. Yes under foreign rule, but that was their land, their homeland. They were promised their own country time and again by Britain in return for overthrowing their overlords during WWI and having done this they expected a country of their own. Suddenly this was not forthcoming and then after the second world war, not only do they STILL not get the promise fufilled the british and the west allowed the land to pass to another people ahead of them. Now I'm not saying that the land is theirs any more than yours, but I'm saying they like anyone would be more than a little annoyed when yet another overlord is placed over them with little consultation when they were promised the land time and again. It's not a case of me saying, well they were there 1st, but me pointing out a way they are annoyed with you. I think if the boot had been on the other foot you would also be more than a little annoyed as well.
And on the issue of the improvement of the land, well yes this is true, but with respect the US and the west have funded a large proportion of this rebuilding, something that never occured before the Jewish population came to the area. Since the palestinians were never given the chance to do what you have done with the funding from the west how are we all so sure they could not have produced similar effects?
I never said (and indeed did say they are funded) they did not recieve money BTW, but they recieve aid and money for very specific things. Many of the countries funding the PLO are not doing so simply to provide better hospitals or education. They fund these terrorists so that they can cause mayhem in Israel and weaken the "enemy in the midst". The average palestinian I imagine sees no more true financial aid from his Arab/Islamic brothers than would feed him for a week. They fund terror and weapons, not food and education. Unfortunately since they only get arms and such material it is easier to use this than nothing at all.
And no a proportion of the palestinian population does not deserve land, that is true, but it is going pretty far to extend this into saying NONE of them deserve land.
Really it comes down to they have lived there centuries so deserve the land and you have improved the land with the money you got that they didn't, so you deserve the land. Who deserves it of the two? Both of you to be frank!
Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, but if we did the surrounding nations would stop funding such disgusting acts of violence and promote the lives of these people living in places like the gaza strip. Without funding these terrorists would find it impossible to fight on in the same way Israel would collapse without outside financial support during war times. If the lives of these people were improved by humanitarian aid to a level similar to that given to israel, all terrorist funding stopped and they truly were given land they owned and elected their own leaders for then perhaps there would be an uneasy peace. The chances of this happening though are quite close to nothing unfortunately.
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted October 12, 2002 04:25 AM |
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Speaking to the lot of you, I consider that both Israel and Palestine have done bad things.
Palestinians have been continually sending suicide bombers into Israeli settlements, killing several or dozens with each suicide bomber. After each kill these sick-minded jihad mongers celebrate their atrocious murder of the so called "Jewish scumbag". Sometimes Israelis also get shot down by Palestinian gunmen, many of these come from the Islamic militant group Hamas.
Israeli military and Ariel Sharon are held responsible for their genocide and their imperialist dictatorship colonialism over the Palestinians. Their troops have mercilessly slaughtered thousands of Palestinians, many of them civilian women and children. No wonder the Palestinians vowed revenge over Israel because of the Israeli government's actions.
In conclusion, I say that both sides are wrong. Using violence on each other will only infuriate the opposition and create more violence. 
There (and no, I am not anti-Semite or anti-Arab).
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No one knows my true nature here...
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HeyYou
Known Hero
and beloved food provider.
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posted October 12, 2002 04:27 AM |
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Maybe we should just let them kill each other off, then. Sounds like it would save everyone a lot of trouble.
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"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
~ Hanlon's Razor
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 12, 2002 04:45 AM |
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For a stupid person, it's easy to say that one side is right and the other is wrong. They can do it quite fast.
For a smart person it's easy to say that both sides are right/wrong but a lot harder to take the time and energy and find out who is right.
And yes, I think that Israel is right. I don't want to keep repeating myself (what's the point in that) so I won't answer several of Damacon_Ace's arguments (if you look at my posts you can find my opinions).But from your post I can deduct that you know very little of what is happening in Israel (and it's no wonder, had I not lived there I would have never known myself). I can tell by the way you talk about women and children while speaking about the Palestinians but about general "settelments" when it's about Israel. Well, in Israel's case they DON'T kill women and children just like that. They don't kill women at all, nor men unless they attack directly. It's the same with children. Tell me what you would do if you were facing a 10 year old with a machine gun and 20 of your friends are lying dead on the ground and the 10 year old is aiming his weapon at you? There are two options there: kill or be killed, and I think that unless you are a Budahist monk or something you will kill that damned kid. If you are reffering to air bombings, those are very rare and only happened right after we got bombed for three months.
One more thing, the arabic countries vowed revange on Israel five minutes after is was established. Has nothing to do with the government.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted October 12, 2002 10:27 PM |
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I would kill that "damned" kid.
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freakmebaby
Known Hero
Rude by nature
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posted October 12, 2002 11:38 PM |
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sry i did not read every 1's post in this thread but i get the point.
since i live in ISRAEL !
i will give a litlle info.
of both sides!
ok i dont know how many of u know so i'll give u bit back round how it is in isarel .
first thing i was in U.S.A a few times and the only ppl u see with guns r cops .. in isarel .. EVERY 1 has a gun.
even my mom has a gun (not that she knows how 2 use it)
but my dad said that she sould have 1 just in case.
i my self have an M-16 and an UsI when i'm in something that tarining b4 army (is like army but its a year b4)
i dont take the wepon home . but any way most the time i'm there.
i;m home now only b/c i broke my leg .
any way were ever u walk ppl have guns .
tanks r were i live since i live near the ararbs.
jeeps of the army r every were.
BUT ppl live there life like nothing is happening.
at least i do 
by the jewish religon this is r holy land.
and they belive its theres..
there r 2 types of arabs
1)isareli arab
2)plastin arab
to me there the sAme both
but 2 isarl the isarli arabs r allod in r citys and the plastin r not.
so u could be walking in the mall of a city and ull see many arabs!1
and the jews (us) dont do any thing ,,,
even thogh that many of this arabs help the plastins and also have been in suasibe bombs.
like were i live my bests friend sister was killd in a bomb in "karbi shamron" with 3 more kids she was only 14 i think.
i was at the seen 5 min after it happen .... trust me u dont wanna know what i show . i knew all the ppl there.
there were Arabs that works at the pizza store.
thats how the killer got all the info on how 2 do the bomb .
so 4 "ME" a good arab is a dead arab any arab!
the killing will never stop till either ther all dead or we r all dead.
even if we give the land that they ask 4 . they will ask 4 more.
we gave the guns! that was the bigset mistake!
we gave them a LIFE they ad nothing (not like they have something now) but more then they had be4.
we bulid this contery.
they did nothing 2 help build it. and now after 50 years they remmber 2 say its thiers??????/
when its all nice?
its true that many of them live in a dump . and i remmber when i was about 6 we used2 buy ferom them stuff .
b/c they were cheep.
but them the intefida startd and they staryd throing rock at passing cars and and so we bulid roads that dont go throw there villages .
so that cut off there main income.
they broght on themselfs.
sry 4 my poor english .
and sry if i got caryd away .
my mind was working faster then i can write so worte so many diff thing i jumo from here 2 there and from there 2 here.
so i'll stop now and wait 4 ur replays and Q: and and them write some more.
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Freak.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 13, 2002 12:28 AM |
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So true...
This is exactly how it is in Israel - ask anybody who ever lived there. I might have said it in a different post but Jews and Arabs often got along quite well. Our schools teach Arabic as a third language and it is a course you have to take every year up to grade 11, I think.
They say we took away their freedom... but we did not. They live just like they used to, a bit better in fact. I think that their main problem is the lack of cooperation - we started with the same funds as them but managed to use the same money to build a prosperous country. It kinda reminds me of the story about the ant and the grasshopper only that in this story the grasshopper comes pointing a machine gun at the ant's head and wants to get everything for himself.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 13, 2002 04:34 AM |
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Ok just some points
Quote:
they did nothing 2 help build it. and now after 50 years they remmber 2 say its thiers??????
They claimed it was theirs in 1915 or so, long before serious levels of jewish settlement of the land. Don't believe me? Well they were promised the land by the British in 1915 in return for helping throw out turkey. I'd say they were interested in their land then.
And still I maintain something. Israel has produced wonders with the country, true but the funding for this has not come solely from Israel. Massive support has come from Jewish people raising funds and massive aid has come from the west, not only in the form of guns. Compare this to palestinians. They got no support from anyone and had no say in how the land was ruled before 1948 (so could hardly be solely to blame for the land being so barren) and since then their source of money has not been to open libraries schools and hospitals, buy to buy guns and bombs.
To say that palestinians could not have built israel to the level of today with the same support and no Jewish settlements is something you will never know, but to say they were given the same chance as the jewish population to do this work is not true. They were'nt and they haven't ever since.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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freakmebaby
Known Hero
Rude by nature
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posted October 13, 2002 05:07 AM |
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who is the British that they can promise so a promise.
do they own isarel ??
i dont think so.
isarel was given 2 the jews when we got r religon from god.
god gave us the contery.
not any humen.
and about that they didnt have the money 2 bulid it...
give me a brack/
do u know how hard they ppl workt 2 rise the money and how hard they workt 2 dry out all the swamps.
yes israel was filld with swamps!
and money didnt clan them out,.
ppl workt day and night 2 make the land rich like it is now.
ofcorse the money helpt .
but tell me something.
how many arab conterys r there??
and how rich r they ?
i think with all the oil they can wip there asss with the bills.
so didnt the other arabs help them ?
why didnt they give them money ?
do u know why ?
i'll tell u why ..... b/c they dont care about any thing but them self.
the only reson there helping them now is 4 there own good.
b/c they hate us even more!
but if they really cared 4 the arabs they would give them land and we would tansfer them out of here,
but that dosnt work u know why >?
b/c no body whats them!
NOBODY!!!
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Freak.
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