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| Thread: The Middle East Violence... Israel vs Palestine |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted October 15, 2002 06:34 PM |
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No, the Jews would not use suicide bombers.
You're right, the people who bombed the King David Hotel didn't commit suicide in the process. I suppose that makes it better. Look, I know that this doesn't directly reflect on current Israelis. I'm not trying to say that. I'm saying that I don't think that there's something inherently wrong with islamic society that causes people not to value life (I do think that the treatment of women in islamic society is inherently wrong, but that's a different issue). All people, INCLUDING Americans (ie - Mcveigh) can and have been pushed to/turned to terrorism, it's not something that's limited to islam or arab society. Doesn't make it less wrong, of course.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 15, 2002 06:35 PM |
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Hexa
You agreed with Dargon that an attack against the Iraq is right. Now there is nothing wrong at all with this opinion of yours, but such a war will lead to the killing of many innocent people, too. Now you will probably say that it´s better and more rightful killing than the other, but that may be a matter of perspective.
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FYI I will be the last person that paints anything black and white ..
You wrote:
we are saying ... "Why kil all those innocent people?" they wil honor the people that committed the attack."
Isn´t that painting things black and white?
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Second: I would like to know where u get your all your facts.
Read again what I pointed out as my different info/facts.
Conn
Maybe you could be so helpful and show me where I accused Romana of racism. I don´t think I ever did that in my life!
What I did is this: I criticised her work as a mod when she wrote "Freak is right." with no further specifications after two Freak posts that were clearly racist.
Now instead of admitting that this was a bad posting of hers and clarifying her opinion, she runs around telling people what a bad person I am and demanding an apology from me.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 15, 2002 09:51 PM |
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You keep thinking that we conquor land with tanks... Which land? The only times we ever got any land were after they attacked us (a war, not just terrorism) and we gave it back. Since this country was given to us we didn't expand it but just kept giving parts of it away in hope that it will satisfy the Palestinians but it doesn't. And don't think that we use our strong military force all that much: ever since Israel was formed the soldiers were educated in simpler forms of fighting (sticks, martial arts) in order to fight those that attack without weapons. I think it's not a very smart thing to do, but they keep doing it. I don't think you ever see this, but 90% of the time when our soldiers are attacked by those half-civilians (many of them do have guns) they just use rubber bullets and not real ones.
The point is that we keep trying to get peace, we give them more and more land, we sign more and more treaties, send back prisoners of war but it's never enough for them. They openly admit that they won't stop until they get the whole country. Well, we are not giving them the whole country!
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 15, 2002 10:26 PM |
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You keep thinking that we conquor land with tanks... Which land?
The parts of the land you currently own which was not ceded to you in the 1948 agreements for one, which are quite numerous for that matter and include the capital (which was to be split and not controlled by any one faction). Or for that matter you invaded the lebanon in the 80's and Egypt in 1956 and on both occaisions took an interest in or kept land. In 1956 you wanted to keep the sinai desert, but were forced into not doing so by the UN and I recall that you kept occupied a zone in southern Lebanon for many years after you withdrew.
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Since this country was given to us
Something the British and the international community had no right to do since they did not bother to consult the Palestinians about the issue, but just handed out a percentage of their land to your people and continually allowed immigration to the country in the preceding years. Long have I regretted the fact that we were the nation to just simply allow that to happen when we were in a position to stop it. It's like when Britain handed over the sudetanland to hitler and he saw that he could take more and did!
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The point is that we keep trying to get peace, we give them more and more land, we sign more and more treaties, send back prisoners of war but it's never enough for them. They openly admit that they won't stop until they get the whole country. Well, we are not giving them the whole country!
I imagine they felt similar to you in 1948 when they were asked (no sorry make that TOLD) to hand over X% of their land to what was then a group of people lead by terrorists. I concur that "they" as in the extremist scum responsible for the bombings have no intention of seeing peace and will always look to violence, but this does not to me suggest that all of "them" are looking to eridicate your country from the middle east. That's one thing even if you ever do get peace you will have to learn the hard way. These people will always seek to wreck the peace process, we have them in ireland under the guise of the so called Real IRA. Do you wish to hold up the process indefinately whilst these scum are getting what they want, IE more violence and more recruits?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 15, 2002 10:45 PM |
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Edited By: IYY on 15 Oct 2002
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http://www.palestinefacts.org/index.php Some more facts...
If you read some of what this site has to offer, you will have to be blind not to understand what's going on.
Here are some good examples from that site and others linked from it:
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Our position is clear, and has been proclaimed on every occasion. It is never to allow the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine and to exclude partition. And our object is to cooperate with the other Arab States in her deliverance. Once this aim is attained, the determination of her future status is the right and concern of her own people. Theirs alone is the last word. We have no other object or aim in view.
This is a letter was sent by the Transjordanian Prime Minister to the UN quite a long time ago, and was not the first nor last of it's kind. It proves that the palestinians want the whole land for themselves and don't want to compromise. Israel does compromise somewhat, but not too much. You have to understand that there isn't that much land to go around!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27338
In this article you can read some very true facts and very reasonble opinions. Just as I said several times before, Palestine never even needed the land of Israel and never did anything good with it. It's also a fact that if they do get it they will make it into what it was before under their control.
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A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal. The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.
Damn, there are more muslims in Jerusalem now than there were back then! And I'm quite sure that they have more freedom too.
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In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace. But, tragically, they chose to leave.
As you can see, the guy doen't have much proof of this, but I lived there and knew these Jews and their children - and I know that this is 90% true. Just a small half-fact for those who are willing to believe me.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 15, 2002 11:34 PM |
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I'll read them, but since they largely seem to come from a pro Israeli standpoint it would be interesting to see if there is a pro palestinian version somewhere which gives their facts and opinions on this
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 15, 2002 11:38 PM |
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I've seen proe palestinian stuff, there seem to be more of them in fact. After all, the whole world has always been in favour of the Palestinians overall. They also have facts, but their facts seem a lot less convincing and many of them are just not true. Maybe you would want to find such a site and show it for us to analyze?
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 15, 2002 11:44 PM |
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Lewis u are way off on both accounts ,, but I won't go into that and spoil this thread any further!@
*sighs*
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 15, 2002 11:47 PM |
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I could try if I get time given all the work I am doing in college and the Newsletter so it may be a while.........
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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freakmebaby
Known Hero
Rude by nature
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posted October 16, 2002 02:54 AM |
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in add 2 IYY's post
they way it goes here every 1 had guns and wepons but no 1 is aloowd 2 use them ...
i dont know if u heard but there was a story on the news about a year ago that a soldier by mistake drove with his car into "rammala" (arab city)
and the nearly stoned him 2 death .. and he had in his car an m-16 but didnt shoot even once...
u know why ?
b/c in this country if u shoot u go 2 jail .
not unless u have a dirct order ur not allowd..
he was about 2 die and didnt shoot b/c he was scard what would happen 2 him if he would kill arabs and live..
he would spend all his life in jail /
so dont tell me that we r like them or like the nazis!!!
we dont burn them!
we dont torchur!
we only kill when we need 2!
and yes sometimes cvililtes get killd in the way ..
must the times b/c they let the arabs hide in there home..
and the arabs know that the army wont dare kill inaset pepole so they hide by them ..
THEY KNOW we dont kill 4 nothing!
and so they take idvantage of it!!
p.s privatehudson - if u really wanna hear the other side why dont u serch 4 some plastinas on say icq or any were i'm sure ull find more then enogh if u really look.
then u can tell us thier side . 
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Freak.
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted October 16, 2002 01:58 PM |
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From The Onion
Northern Irish, Serbs, Hutus Granted Homeland In West Bank
UNITED NATIONS?In a bold gambit hoped to resolve dozens of conflicts around the world, the U.N. announced Monday the establishment of Ethniklashistan, a multinational haven in the West Bank that will serve as a new homeland for Irish Protestants, Hutus, Serbs, and other troubled groups.
"For far too long, these groups have been locked in prolonged strife with their former neighbors, unable to achieve a lasting peace," U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said. "Now that these various peoples have a new homeland where they can find refuge, all the years of fighting and bloodshed can finally be put behind them."
Former Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic, now presiding over a Serb settlement near the Jordanian border, was optimistic about the future. "All Muslim scum must die," he said. "Death to all enemies of Serbian purity!"
The various groups, transported to Ethniklashistan by a massive U.N. airlift, will share their new homeland with the roughly two million Palestinians and Israeli settlers who currently occupy the region. U.N. officials say the West Bank site was chosen for its centralized location, opportunities for tourism, and comfortable desert climate. These factors, combined with the already diverse cultural, ethnic, and religious composition of the area, offer "a unique opportunity for many international groups to live together in peace."
"This is truly a win-win situation," U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said. "War-ravaged peoples from all over the world finally have a place they can feel safe. And, for the Palestinians and Israelis already there, the presence of additional ethnicities should reduce any pre-existing stresses. Arabs and Jews will enjoy exposure to a glorious, multiethnic stew, and they will, in turn, have the opportunity to lead by example, serving as role models of peaceful coexistence."
Hutu leader Kagabo Ndadaye, who between 1994 and 1996 personally oversaw the machete deaths of more than 10,000 Tutsi Rwandans, echoed the positive outlook. "The glorious Hutu are the one pure race," said Ndadaye, speaking from a Hutu settlement near Hebron while eyeing a nearby Kurdish settlement. "All inferior mongrel peoples shall be put to the blade."
Though hopes are high for Ethniklashistan?a name created by a team of linguists who combined 17 different languages' words for "sanctuary"?the establishment of the new homeland has proven rocky. Of the more than 500,000 people relocated there so far, approximately 97 percent have responded with violent resistance, swearing oaths of eternal vengeance against U.N. volunteers conducting the forced relocations.
Bloodshed also marred the "Festival Of Human Brotherhood," a weeklong, nationwide event celebrating the founding of Ethniklashistan. On Monday, 11 people were killed in a skirmish between Basques and Sikhs near Nablus. The same day, six were killed and dozens injured on the streets of Bethlehem when Somalis and Greek Cypriots exchanged gunfire and grenades.
Dozens of shifting alliances have added to the confusion and chaos. In a pre-dawn border raid Monday, Burmese Karen rebels attacked a Tamil settlement. By late afternoon, the Karens were driven back by the Tamils, who were newly armed with Israeli anti-personnel missiles smuggled into the West Bank by Zionist fundamentalists who had allied themselves?some say only as a temporary ruse?with the Tamils.
On Tuesday, guerrilla fighters made up of an uneasy Palestinian-Papuan alliance attacked an Irish Protestant church near the Golan Heights, killing 121 Irish worshippers with nerve gas before being repelled by a nearby faction of Protestant-sympathizing Zapatista rebels from the Chiapas region of Mexico.
The violence continued that evening, when the severed heads of 20 Chechens were paraded through the streets of Jericho by Azerbaijani extremists. The killings are thought to be in retaliation for rocket attacks by a band of pro-Armenian Chechen rebels, who have thus far evaded Azerbaijani attempts to flush them out of their encampments in the hills with prolonged shelling.
Alarmed by the new nation's growing pains, world leaders have launched a large-scale international-aid effort to help Ethniklashistan get on its feet. Great Britain has pledged 12,000 peacekeeping troops, vowing to "pummel with rubber bullets, tear gas, and billy clubs anyone who dares threaten the Sons of Ulster." China has pledged 40,000 soldiers to supervise the 2,000-plus Tibetan Buddhists relocated to the region. Indonesia, Cambodia, Nigeria, and Afghanistan have also sent troops.
"There is always a period of transition and upheaval in the founding of a new government," President Bush said. "That is why an international humanitarian consortium of nations, including the U.S., France, Russia, Iraq, and North Korea, has pledged $2 trillion in military aid to the new nation. This way, all Ethniklashistanis, regardless of race, color, creed, or economic background, will have equal access to the state-of-the-art ordnance they need to defend themselves and their families during this initial period of instability."
Encouraged by such aid efforts, experts are confident that a lasting peace can soon be established among the rival Ethniklashistani groups.
"When you take that many long-suffering, war-torn groups and put them in the same place, how can you not have peace?" asked former president Jimmy Carter, who will lead talks among the various Ethniklashistani groups. "This hatred cannot possibly last long."
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doomnezeu
Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
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posted March 26, 2004 09:32 AM |
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Why do a people who believe in God believe that any person can be of special chosen status under God's watchful eyes?
Because there are no two people the same. Eventually, one is better than other, one is smarter or one is quicker. It is in our natural way of life to consider some people and disconsider others. Same thing with God
We can not know God. This is true. Can it be said of Moses that he would agree with the way Israel lives today?
No he would certainly not. No one from that time would. The same as Cezar would not agree with what his beloved empire has become. Those were other times, other beliefs, unlike now when we live in a fast moving society.
Who can own land? To what end does ownership meet?
land is won through conquest. It has been like this for thousands of years, with the only difference being the way someone conquests land. Now, we use subtile methods such as persuation or money. We do not resort to violence that often. I belive they call it the law of the jungle
People hating people for thousands of years. Do they both live in fear of each other?
Yes. Fear makes people stronger. People will always fight eachother, because THE NATURAL ORDER OF LIFE IS WAR
Do the Israelis fear the Palestinians will kill their children?
No, Israelis fear that the palestinas are right and they claim nothing but what they deserve. The children being killed is more the fault of Israel.
Do the Palestinians fear the Israelis will kill their children?
Palestinians fear only the fact that they are ripped off by a stronger country, so it is fair in my opinion that thei are retaliating
Human beings are human beings are they not?
They are animals like any other animals. There are two mammals in the world that kill for pleasure, and these are the humans and dingos (no offence, Dingo). I think that sais it all
Does not the thoughts and feelings of one human being relate to another?
I think that, when it comes to human interaction, it all resorts to instincts
Where is the common ground?
In the Purgatory
Can God truly choose one people over another people.
Well, it is his right, we do the same when it comes to what we create and destroy. I think God likes to play those little games with us, like you die today, lemme see your fammily grief and such
All done
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted March 26, 2004 11:02 AM |
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The Israelis want the land
The Palestinians want the land
They fight.
Who gets the land? For someone to have it fully, the fighting needs to stop. If they can't come to a peaceful solution the only way to stop the fighting is if one side dies 100%. But thats not allowed. So the fighting will go on for a very long time.
Best we can do is stay away from the places that get bombed, and let them fight it out if they want to.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted March 26, 2004 06:08 PM |
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Who gets the land? For someone to have it fully, the fighting needs to stop. If they can't come to a peaceful solution the only way to stop the fighting is if one side dies 100%.
And this is exactly the problem. It's absolutly impossible that one side would die 100%, and a peaceful solution is far more difficult than you would think. Let's look at the options before us:
Give everything to Israel and try to control Palestine:
Well, there is nothing to be said here except that the violence would definatly not stop and no good would come from this.
Give the entire country to Palestine:
First of all, this is not going to happen. You may as well say that the US should give all of its land to the natives. If it did happen, it would be the ultimate proof that terrorism pays. Terrorists everywhere would see it as a wake up call and start trying to get land for themselves.
Give the West Bank to Palestine and the rest to Israel:
'What a splendid idea!' You may say. 'Clearly such a compromise would solve all of their problems. Why did they not do it yet?' Well I'll tell you why. First of all, Palestine made it very clear that they would not stop the terror until they have ALL of Israel, or at the very least Jerusalem. Of course their recent diplomats said that they'll settle for the West Bank but this does NOT mean that the terrorist groups agree with them! Did you know that Palestinian textbooks show Palestine not as the West Bank, but as the whole of Israel:
Or how about the following statement, made only four years ago?
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"The Palestinian people accepted the Oslo agreements as a first step and not as a permanent settlement, based on the premise that war and struggle in the land is more efficient than a struggle from a distant land . . . "The Palestinian people will continue the revolution until they achieve the goals of the '65 revolution." ] destruction of Israel ]
Abd El Aziz Shahian
More of those quotes at http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/comments.htm
So we can be pretty damn certain that even if Palestine as a nation would be happy with the West Bank, the terrorist groups would not even slightly refrain from their acts. In fact, it is quite obvious that they will be far more capable of commiting such acts, since they would be much closer to Israel.
Look at the following map of Israel and the West Bank.
The terrorists would pretty much have free access to Jerusalem, and be well within missile range from Tel Aviv (Katyusha rockets are were already fired at the Naharia area, located only slightly above Haifa.) Once Palestine has West Bank, the terrorists will get the most strategic position possible for their attacks.
Please feel free to propose any other methods of ending the violence. I think that what Israel is doing right now is just what needs to be done.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted March 30, 2004 08:55 PM |
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Ah, Middle East… Not really my domain, since things are really messed up down there (and doesn’t really have anything in common with the Balkans), but from what I know, I can surely tell that it’s not the Jews -“the evil bad guys that oppress and slaughter the innocent, peace loving Palestinians”.
If one looks back into history, one can find many mistakes that today have disastrous consequences. But things that are done cannot be undone. We have to learn to live with the consequences and deal with them. The same goes for the artificial creation of Israel. But, the fact must remain that it was injustful for the Palestinians.
But going to present times, people pretend they don’t notice the Palestinian terrorism going on, and try to justify it. The Palestinians are economically, educationally backward, compared to the Israelis, and it’s understandable why a radical approach develops in their society. That however, is not a reason to justify it. I read recently a horrible statistic that one in five Palestinian kids wishes to die as a suicide-bomber fighting against the Jews!!! This is a clear evidence for the militant mentality these young minds are imposed ever since they are born. So, it’s obvious why Palestine is a fertile ground for terrorism.
Therefore, Israel cannot be blamed for fighting against it, but they are not saints either. If Sharon is out of power, I think a road for peace-negotiations to take place will be cleared. Everyone must understand that peace-negotiations and cease-fire are now the imperative. But a policy of bombing and occupying Palestinian settlements is counter-productive. I believe Israel must turn its efforts solely to stopping the terrorism, nothing more than that.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted July 21, 2004 07:38 AM |
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History Repeats Itself
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/07/20/un.barrier.resolution/index.html
UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- The U.N. General Assembly voted overwhelmingly Tuesday to call on Israel to dismantle a barrier that would seal off the West Bank.
Where are Pink Floyd and Ronald Reagan when you need them?
If history has taught us nothing else, we know that walls do not create peace, people do. Why haven't we learned from our mistakes in the past?
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted July 21, 2004 10:52 AM |
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I fully expect Israel to pay absolutely no attention to that whatsoever, they never did pay attention to UN resolutions, why bother now?
Oh and here's some interesting news, when Sharon leaves power, he can be tried by a Belgian court for warcrimes:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,894523,00.html
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Pirahna
Famous Hero
or not ...
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posted July 25, 2004 11:45 PM |
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In these days ... every day there's a war !!
Armageddon is close ...
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The Pirahna - wow guys ... my posts keep decreasing ... lol ... i can't post
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted July 26, 2004 06:38 AM |
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I seriously believe that we will be sitting, watching CNN reports of continued violence there... in 2010, just like we see now.
But I also forsee a much greater chance of a 'nuclear' or 'biological' terrorist attack in Israeli soil than in the US.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted July 30, 2004 07:33 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 30 Jul 2004
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fite4urRight,
I'm afraid it isn't so simple as you make it sound. The Israeli Jewish state finds itself amidst a sea of anti christian/anti jewish peoples. All around them are muslims that would rather have muslims hold the "holy land". We americans gave the Israelis this state in pity from the holocaust and horrors of the last world wars.
Palestine is not really Palestine. The palestinians call themselves such because that was the name of the holy land under their occupation of it. When they were driven out they kept the name of palestinian to always remind themselves of their true home.
I urge you not to take a side in this crisis concerning Israel and the Palestinians. More muslim countries want it back than not. And worldwide, the americans are the only thing keeping them from doing that at the moment. This is not to say that some day they will join together to reclaim their holy land. It might come to that and when it does I will tell you that we americans will not support a modern day crusade to drive out the muslims from Israel. This country won't put boots on the ground to save the Israelis from the muslims. And if the Israelis use one of their nuclear weapons in defense then no country in the world will support them.
It's a very delicate tightrope to walk. My advice is to not take sides openly. Do what you believe in private but do not make an open stance made for all to hear.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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