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| Thread: The Middle East Violence... Israel vs Palestine |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted October 15, 2002 01:25 AM |
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These celebrations were at least partially faked by CNN.
Conceded. I admit that they were blown out of context, but they were only partially faked. There was some celebrating going on, but not to the degree that it was depicted. That doesn't change the fact that the natural reaction upon seeing it is "kill all them ay-rabs."
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 15, 2002 01:40 AM |
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Hexa, yes, I have different info/facts regarding this:
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we are saying ... "Why kil all those innocent people?" they wil honor the people that committed the attack?"
Maybe you remember, in the "Attack Iraq"-thread you were saying 'kill all those innocent people!', because the end of Saddamīs regime was more important to you than the life of some thousand bearded men and veiled women. I donīt know what the final truth here or anywhere else is, but painting the conflicts in the middle east black (they) and white (we) doesnīt move you anywhere near there.
Yes, in the communities where the suicide-bombers are from, they are celebrated by some, but also despised by others. "We" are not a homogenous group, and neither are "they". I agree that lack of democracy and hate-indoctrination at early age are a problem in Palaestinan society, but that is partly Israelīs fault.
IYY
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No, the Jews would not use suicide bombers. I know that for a fact. Neither would the British or the Americans or any other nation (except maybe Japan but it's not exactly the same thing).
Of course you canīt know such a thing for a fact, because you and Britain and US arenīt in their situation. Itīs rather unlikely that Palaestinans and Japanese are born with a suicide-bomber-gene.
Youīre right with everything else you said about suicide bombers, but it should be added that human beings must usually be very desperate to value death more than life. Only way for Israel to succesfully fight terrorism: Give them something to make their lifes more valuable than death - first step towards that might be to respect UN resolutions.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 15, 2002 01:56 AM |
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How can Israel give anything to the Palestinians as a country? Israel's economy is not at it's best right now (because of the war) and I don't think they can afford more help than simple non-profit orgainizations and such that give some food and clothes but don't help at all on the large scale.
And the suicide bomber is not a gene, but it is something created by thousands of years of certain culture, lifestyle and religion. Human life is not valued as dearly by those people, and their honour is more important to them than the lives of their families. They are natuarly unorganized and that causes their bad economy. They are very agressive (that's a fact, even the nice arabs I knew all had a very bad tempor.), not that there is anything wrong with this but put together with the other factors it's a deadly combination.
So yes, Jews could go as far as suicide bombings, but only if their culture was altered a few thousand years ago.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 15, 2002 02:16 AM |
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Hmmmmmmmmm seems I missed a bit here 
Well where to start!
Firstly with the japanese - Yes it was a culture thing bred for generations that they should sacrifice their lives for the greater good of the emporer and was very ritualistic.
But it is right to say it's inbred for years to these people as most conquered people's don't usually go to these legnths, but when you are talking of violence and bombings neither side is solely innocent are they? You have bombed people in the past, and not with planes, so I geuss the difference comes down to suicide bombers. That then comes down to the point on whether you would consider yourself beyond hope of living a good life free of your enemies, which right now isn't much of a hope for these people.
To borrow a phrase from you, since you and the people of Israel have not been in that exact position how do you know how you would react. The answer is you can't and no-one can.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 15, 2002 03:05 AM |
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Wrong! We have been in worse positions throughout history if you read the bible, and more recently during WWII. The Jewish slaves didn't just attack the egyptians, the partysans (not only Jewish but also) during WWII also fought but without suicide bombers and didn't go around killing civilians and their cituation was waaaaay worse.
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That then comes down to the point on whether you would consider yourself beyond hope of living a good life free of your enemies, which right now isn't much of a hope for these people.
If this is so, means they are quite stupid. They can live a good life free of enemies - all they have to do is get a decent job, a government that's not some sort of crazy dictatorship, that's it! Israel only attacks after a huge suicide bombing or a few months of those other bombs, so all they have to do is stop.
It's just like a lazy student who thinks that his bad report card is because of the cruelty of the world. Not that hard for him to just study a bit and shut up, no need to shoot the teacher.
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Damacon_Ace
Famous Hero
Also known as Nobris Agni
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posted October 15, 2002 03:12 AM |
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I partially agree with IYY...
Yes, throughout the history of mankind the Jews have been one of the most persecuted people in the world - probably more than blacks. They have been murdered brutally in World War II camps, some of them were killed during the 1972 Munich Olympics and a lot of Jews lost their lives through racially-motivated violence in many countries, past and present.
Therefore, it seems as if the Israelis have been using their campaign against Palestine as a sort of revenge.
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No one knows my true nature here...
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 15, 2002 03:17 AM |
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Suicide bombers did not exist in that era, though I do recollect a story of a bunch of jewish people committing suicide in a fortress called something like massada(?) to prevent capture
And the holocaust is completely different. By the time your people got to that situation the germans had enough controls in place to ensure you pretty much couldn't blow them up other than in the partizans. Geuss that's one of the good things about Israel they haven't quite started to round the palestinians up and not give them access to any parts of certain cities yet. Note I did not say you were not in worse situations than them, but not in the same situation as them.
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If this is so, means they are quite stupid. They can live a good life free of enemies - all they have to do is get a decent job, a government that's not some sort of crazy dictatorship, that's it! Israel only attacks after a huge suicide bombing or a few months of those other bombs, so all they have to do is stop.
This presumably going hand in hand with their ability to put up with being ruled by the jewish population, or living with the knowledge that at any point their "free" nation could and probably would be overrun by the jewish army if they felt the wish to? So they can have normal lives, but they cannot rule themselves truly with freedom in case an extremist sets off a few bombs, in which case back comes jewish rule? How do you suggest removing Arafat when he holds all the power amongst his people?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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freakmebaby
Known Hero
Rude by nature
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posted October 15, 2002 03:33 AM |
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first thing i dont mind if u call me a racsit its my opinion and if u read back 2 that post i worte "me" .
i dont know if u know what it is 2 lose close friends. but when i did . i said 2 my self why only now did it hit me? why didnt i care be4 when other jews died ?
was it b/c i didnt know them ? b/c there not my friends?
well now 4 every time a jew dies by arabs i feel the same way as if it was my best friend.
since were all brothers and we have no friends besides r pepole . the hole world hates us as theres nothing we can do about it .. thats just the way it was mant 2 be.
let me give u another racsit (if thats what u call it) opinion .
CNN LIES!
i see what they show.
and they dont show half of what really happend.
maby it didnt tell u the way pepole here live,
i know many people from were i live that when they drive 2 work they wear a bullet proof vest and a hellmat - that is no way 2 live ur life. why sould we chnage r livs b/c of them ?
i myself think that its carzy 2 do that . (i will never wear any of those.
but this is how they live its about a 20 min drive from were i live till safe zone .
and yes there is here and there shooting of the roads (once there was only rock now even the kids have guns)
90% of the cars were we live have plastic windows insted of glass.
many of my friend dont come visit me b/c there partnts dont let them come out 2 were i live.
just 2 show u how carzy this contery is .
the arabs walk around r citys like they live there .
but NO ONE!!! goes in 2 ANY of there citys .. (not unless ur suaside)
that just proves that IYY 90% if not more is right since in every city u walk in ur dead means more % want u dead or else the other % would not let them kill u .
so since i got a few IM about my post that "a good arab is a dead arab" i'm sry if it hunt any 1 .
but its my opinion and ..... sry
p.s also i would like 2 tell 1 night at around 11:00 pm i was supssta drive 2 see my gf its about a 45 min drive 20 min in a bad arae right out side were we live.
i get 2 the gate of the settlmant .
and gound tells me i can;t leave ... i ask why not?
he tell me b/c there is shooting on the road
so it tell him open the gate let me out i dont care ..i will not be lock in here like a getto .
he tells me he has he orders from the army and he can;t let me out not unless i have have some1 with me in the car or a wepon .
i tell him that BS it my life i'll do what i want .. and any why what will another person help me any way ?
any way he didnt let me and get angery real mad so he calld the cops.
and like 4-5 cops came and was also yalling at them (and they knew i was right)
i told wtf do i need 2 be lockt it here b/c of those freakin arabs ..
i trust in god enogh that nothing will happen 2 me and a wepon or esspasliy a friend wont help .
they didnt let me out and i had a big argument with them .
so i turn around and drove throw a dirt road out a diff setlemt .. and there the gournd didnt know me so the sec some1 came from the out side and the gate open i zipt right out.
any as u see i'm still alive .. and my ponit is that i will not CHNAGE my life b/c of them even if there is shooting or any thing else and i think if more ppl would do this they would see that they wont get it there way .
b/c the sry part is that they do get it there way ... b/c 99% of ppl r not crazy like me and will not drive when there is shoting on the road .. and so i feel like there way of life depens on if the arabs shoot 2 day or not.
and i know some1 that canceld a wadding b/c of shotting .. they toght not so many ppl would show up ...... its just insane!
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Freak.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 15, 2002 03:41 AM |
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I and my family have not lost friends, but we have had friends wounded and shot at in Northern Ireland, so I know more than I need to know about that type of situation.
Oh and I can only speak for myself, but as part of this "whole world" I don't hate anybody I have never met or know no facts about as a person. I don't hate Jews or Arabs, I just wish both sides would learn a little sense but since that doesn't seem to happen to the ruling parties of either side I geuss I wish in vain.........
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 15, 2002 03:47 AM |
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I have to say that I agree with most of the things that freak is saying. They are all true.
The problem is, as I said before, with smart people who see those things on CNN, and newspapers and movies, and get wrong information. Then there are people like PH who get some more information, but while looking it over they are just looking at ways to prove their point and not change their opion.
William James said it better than me:
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A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
You see, you get the wrong idea from the governments who are trying to hide their own little secrets and plans (it's all about the oil, I think) and then instead of trying to change your first opinion you look for more information on how right you are.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 15, 2002 04:04 AM |
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I see that freakmebaby edited his post and added a new (and no doubt true) story about what's happening in Israel. I can tell you, it's not a one time thing, happens all the time. I know that I spent at least 10 months of my life in bomb shelters and I wasn't even there for the war at 1990. I also know that my friend's mom had drive through smoke of bombs to get home from work several times. The thing that you often don't understand is that it's not the same thing as you have with the Irish. This is looking at death's face every day you wake up.
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privatehudson
Responsible
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 15, 2002 04:08 AM |
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That's an interesting assumption........
I have my opinion that both sides are at fault for the current situation and both sides still fight with eachother other than solve things through diplomatic means. I blame other nations (including my own) for the situation as well. If you paid attention you would also realise I do not support or agree with the palestinians blowing people up, but cannot link this to saying all or 90% because I don't know the whole facts on the ground. Then again that is only your 2 sides of the story. Since we have no palestinians on this site (that we know of) I presume it's not too much trouble for someone to come along and challenge your opinions like that of 90% or that all arabs should be killed? You would prefer it presumably if I just laid down and accepted your opinions as facts and not looked into the other side of the coin such as palestinian opinions of you or the way your army has acted in places like the lebanon.
I mostly agree with you, but you act like you are the only country to suffer terrorism. Yes it is a larger scale, but if you asked a protestant from belfast he would give you a similar tale. You cannot claim to be the only ones qualified to hand out opinions simply because you THINK you are the only ones to have experienced it.
Now if you came along with some facts such as what percentage of the palestinian people actually supported violence and who didn't then it actually came close to 90% then fine, but I know from relatives in NI that what seems like everyone is often nothing close to it at all.
I ask you how is it wrong to have the opinion that you are a small amount responsible for this modern day situation when you as a country created it by overtaking their land and throwing many of them out of it? Is it wrong to suggest that in some way what your millitary does is causing more resentment? Is it wrong to believe that diplomacy, land and a proper world aid plan could work better than bombing them in retaliation every few months? How is it so wrong when it is at least partially working in places like Northern Ireland? What you are doing now clearly isn't working as you are a country living in fear from attack, and it is ruining normal life. Why continue to follow that route?
Most of what you offered is opinion, not fact and if you want to argue on opinion then would it not be fairer to get the opinion of someone from the other side of the conflict?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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freakmebaby
Known Hero
Rude by nature
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posted October 15, 2002 04:21 AM |
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another think i reammber but i'm sure that there r many more.
is every time they think that there is a bomb some were and they do that severl times a day when things get bad..
so they close of the road in main citys and man does it cuse tons of trffic 4 hours..
turst its a big pain... 2 wait hours and must times it nothing... just a false alarm..
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Freak.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted October 15, 2002 04:22 AM |
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There is plenty of fact to go around, but I can't prove those facts to you. Sorry, I just can't but this is not an opinion - it is a fact that will be proven (but my guess is that it will be too late). I already ran out of facts when we were aruing about this in another thread:
there is the fact that our soldiers don't go around shooting civilians but only very rarley do so when the civilians are trying to kill them.
There is the fact that the Palestinians still have enough land and freedom to do whatever they want if they just stop fighting.
There is the fact that when we came to this land most of it was never even used by the Palestinians coz it was swampland.
Then there is also the fact that we only attack after a huge attack, while they attack a few minutes after a peace contract that gives them land!
There is the fact that they can visit our cities and do whatever they want whenever they want while we can't even get near their's
All these are facts.
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freakmebaby
Known Hero
Rude by nature
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posted October 15, 2002 04:27 AM |
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privatehudson ur right u need 2 hear the aother side also..
dont belive any thing any 1 tells EVER till u know 4 sure his telling the truth but keep his words in ur mind 4 some day u might find out he was a truth teller.
i my self dont belive 2 half the things i hear on the news..
i try 2 see with my own eyes and hear from pepole i turst - as many as possible..
good luck in talking 2 the palestinians
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Freak.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted October 15, 2002 11:31 AM |
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Freak It's not a case of talking to them myself, but listening to the other side of the story, something that's not exactly portrayed here given the bias towards American and Jewish people here on the board (or at least bias against the palestinians).
IYY
What do you know of the irish conflict until recently? Do you have any idea what it was like to grow up in belfast recently, under hatred and division in a similar situation to what you describe? Still here we have marches of people calling for violence and most often they are denied access to catholic or protestant (dep. on who's marching) areas because of the violence it will cause. Recently some catholic children were stopped from walking their usual route to school simply because it went down a protestant street. They didn't just close it, they yelled abuse and insults at 5 year old children. I know for a fact that during the height of the problems protestant people were afraid to walk down certain streets, worried for which pub they went into or which taxi firm they used. I suspect it was similar for the Catholics, but as I only know protestants from that time period I cannot say. And even here on the mainland I have lived during a time when 3 major bombs have been exploded relatively recently, 2 of them within 50 miles of me. Don't try telling me I cannot quite understand when we have faced a similar threat here for 30 years in one of our cities. The same hatred is there, but our reaction to it differed hugely and I believe this has contributed to our present situation being far better (though still dreadfull) than yours.
Now I don't wish to be awkward, but just a few things in response to your facts:
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There is the fact that the Palestinians still have enough land and freedom to do whatever they want if they just stop fighting.
Like I said this is reliant on the fact that at any time they can be invaded and ruled again by you if one of their extremist groups spoils the process I assume? What if they did want peace? I suspect it would make no difference as as soon as a ultra extreme group of maniacs set off a few bombs they immediately loose all these rights?
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There is the fact that when we came to this land most of it was never even used by the Palestinians coz it was swampland.
I don't deny that, but there's no reason for using this as justification for kicking out the resident peoples of palestine after the 1948 or 1967 wars and then claiming the land as your own when they have as equal a right the land as a whole.
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Then there is also the fact that we only attack after a huge attack, while they attack a few minutes after a peace contract that gives them land!
And yet what do your attacks achieve? They don't stop the bombers, that's certain and they antagonise the world and in particular the palestinians! What do you expect a bombing of palestinian HQ's or terrorist cells will actually do other than satisfy a need for revenge?
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There is the fact that they can visit our cities and do whatever they want whenever they want while we can't even get near their's
conceded, but if they all truly hate you so much why the hell do you want to visit their cities?
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 15, 2002 03:17 PM |
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Hexa, yes, I have different info/facts regarding this:
we are saying ... "Why kil all those innocent people?" they wil honor the people that committed the attack?"
Dammit u made me scan the entire Iraq thread again.
First: Please point out to me where I said that.
Second: I would like to know where u get your all your facts. Are u an arab or an ALQ member in disguise that u seem to have all the answers.
I take it that your "knowlegde" also comes from the news u watch and the articles u read.
FYI I will be the last person that paints anything black and white .. I for one am very aware that people act from there only personal package of values and stuff. So I will never say what is good or wrong in that manor.
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"We" are not a homogenous group, and neither are "they"
No ofcourse not .. and who said that
homogenous groups is a theorectical extreme.
But in some cases u talk about a sociological group as a whole to get a point across.
If u have to splt every hair we should write a book instead of a post.
Third: (explicitly deleted)
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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Conn
Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
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posted October 15, 2002 03:45 PM |
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Geez, i'm gone for a while and what do i find when i come back? Accusations of racism, instigation to murder( the lawyer in me is talking....GET IT OFF ME!!! HEEEELP! ) Lews, i don't know you, but do you mind teling me what were you thinking when you accused, out of all people, Romy of racism??? WTF is going on in this board? Every girl coming here is really bashed sooner or later...It happened to Milena, to Cat, lately it's happening to Romy...are you guyz( the ones doing the bashing...whoever you may be) afraid of women or what? I know puberty hits hard, but still....get a grip.
As for the subject of the thread...IMHO, the truth is somewhere in the middle...
I don't agree with Israel on the settlers affair, taking over land with tanks...i thought military conquests stoped in the midlle ages...
But i don't agree with the practice of killing of innocent civillians by the palestinians( and no, i don't agree with the reason "there's nothing else they can do"...if that were the case, the romanians would either be breeding like rabbits to survive, or be wiped out...we've been given plenty of reasons to apply that tactic over the centuries, but never had...)...
And, off course, different political and monetary interests are involved, making things much worse....
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 Whatever does not kill us, only makes us stronger
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freakmebaby
Known Hero
Rude by nature
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posted October 15, 2002 04:26 PM |
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talking about romanians u know how many romanians work 2day in israel ? TONS...
there all over the place... and when the arabs attck sometimes they also get hit .. yes many have guten hurt and a few have died. why ? is there war ? no!
but the arabs dont care who stands in the way ....
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Freak.
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Slava14
Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
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posted October 15, 2002 04:28 PM |
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That's it... I won't even bother to read this thread anymore... it makes me think about what's happening here.. that's too depressing... oh well... some Pratchett will cheer me up... and to all of you... stop.. it's... too deep 
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I'm always happy to help.. unless I'm helping myself.
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