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Fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted October 30, 2006 02:40 PM |
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Poll Question:
Do you want the Conflux back?
Conflux where my favourite town in HOMM III. It was good, generally balanced and had a very good and unique concept. I relay want it back, it would be very funny to play as them in Homm V.
Do you want it back?
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 30, 2006 02:50 PM |
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yes!
i was thinking about having them based on Japanese warfare. with more elementals now there are more elemental dragons. and not going air elemental-> storm elemental, but given each elemental a defining creature, like slyphs for wind and efreets for fire. having a animal for each element, like a fox for wind, a dolphin for water, and as the creature upgrades, they become more like the animal!!!! 
if i have just crushed the thread, then i am sorry
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted October 30, 2006 03:25 PM |
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Any ideas are always welcome. 
My line up proposal:
Level 1: Wisp (Flyer)
Level 1 upgrade: Ancient Wisp (Flyer, Incorporeal)
Level 2: Air elemental (Elemental, Immune to mind controll)
Level 2 upgrade: Cyclon Elemental (Elemental, Immune to mind controll, No Enemy Retaliation)
Level 3: Earth elemental (Elemental, Immune to lightning)
Level 3 upgrade: Magma elemental (Elemental, Immune to lightning, 25% magic-proof)
Level 4: Fire elemental (Elemental, Immune to fire, Ranged)
Level 4 upgrade: Volcano elemental (Elemental, Immune to fire, Ranged, Scatter Shot)
Level 5: Water elemental (Elemental, Spell-book: Haste, Ice Bolt, Decay)
Level 5 upgrade: Ice elemental (Elemental, Spell-book: Haste, Ice Bolt, Decay, Raise Dead, Phantom Forces)
Level 6: Void elemental (Incorporeal, No Enemy Retaliation)
Level 6 upgrade: Dark elemental (Incorporeal, No Enemy Retaliation, Immune to spells level 1-3)
Level 7: Firebird (Flyer, Large Creature)
Level 7 upgrade: Phoenix (Flyer, Large Creature, Unlimited Retaliation)
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted October 30, 2006 04:53 PM |
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NOOO I DONT WANT THEM BACK.
everything about h3 conflux was awful.
* the town didnt fit together (alps + arab buildings?)
* it was awfully overpowered
* elementals dont fit together with sprites and phoenixes
* elementals are really boring creatures compared to other races.
no. i dont hate elementals as neutrals/summonables, but i hate them as town.
____________
Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 30, 2006 05:30 PM |
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that looks good, Fortress_fan.
my ideas went something like this.
all elementals are human like, with a japanese culture. each element has a patron spirit who is a particular animal. as the elemental progress (upgrades) they begin to look like that animal.
byuuji- fox spirit and lord of the air elementals (slyphs)
Hewila- tiger spirit and lady of the light elementals (wisps)
Nibina- dolphin spirit and lady of the water elementals (undines)
Gumnuo- panda spirit and lady of the earth elementals (dryads)
Shadwo- gecko spirit and lord of the shadow elementals (changelings)
Raknas- dragon spirit and lord of the fire elementals (efreets)
the emporer- ruler of all the elementals and patron of the magic elementals (pheonixs)
units
wisp-> wisp geisha (small, armed with a large mirror, shooter, dazzles enemy, upgrade can heal allies)
Slyph-> slyph trickster (small, armed with a bowstaff, flyer, upgrade is incorpeable)
undine-> undine Oban (small, armed with a recurve bow and arrows, shooter, upgrade can cast some dark magic)
efreet-> efreet samurai (large, armed with twin samurai swords, walker, upgrade can teleport and cast fireball)
dryad-> dryad sumo (large, bare hands, walker, upgrade can heal and use stone spikes)
changeling-> changeling shinobi (small, armed with a myraid of knives, walker, upgrade can turn invisible)
pheonix-> pheonix ronin (large, bare hands, wings and claws (karate), flyer/spellcaster, upgrade is just better)
hope you like them!
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 30, 2006 06:22 PM |
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Problem is that Conflux as it was cannot really return (which is probably for the better - it wasn't very ballanced). The Phoenix is now not an ordinary creature. All the elementals are way too strong to fit into the lower levels, and none of the elementals are strong enough to fit into the higher levels (the sit pretty well where they are at level 4).
What one could do is think instead of something that includes all the elementals, then something that has only one type. Like the Conflux being a gateway to 1 of the 4 Elemental Plains. This would allow you to recruite elementals of varying size and power (Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Elder) corresponding to levels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. That would mean that each type of elemental (Small, Large, etc.) came as 4 types - Earth, Fire, Water, Air - like a Small Air Elemental, a Large Air Elemental or a Large Water Elemental.
I can't see how the Elementals should be worked into a normal type of town.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted October 31, 2006 09:39 AM |
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you've really thought hard about it, haven't you
still, they don't need the name elemental, though, just elemental-related creatues (i like using loopholes)
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Fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted October 31, 2006 01:03 PM |
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Quote:
NOOO I DONT WANT THEM BACK.
everything about h3 conflux was awful.
* the town didnt fit together (alps + arab buildings?)
* it was awfully overpowered
* elementals dont fit together with sprites and phoenixes
* elementals are really boring creatures compared to other races.
no. i dont hate elementals as neutrals/summonables, but i hate them as town.
1. Yes, I think Medieval Byzantine buildings would do it. On native graas terrain.
2. Yes, it should be somewat weaker, on pair with Haven.
3. I tink they do.
4. I think not. It is a very orginal and fun idea to have a faction ruled buy elementalists.
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 31, 2006 03:15 PM |
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Well, I agree with Vhilhu in all his points. Especially I think they dont fit with sprites and phoenixes, and there are only four elementals of equal power, so its impossible to create a faction of seven creatures in the line-up. And one more thing I didnt like on the conflux is that the elements should be ballanced, not two fire beings, air elemental completely under and whats the psycho/magic elemental? (thats no true element!) I havent played for this faction wery much (because I dont like it), but I think it its not needed.
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Already gone...
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted October 31, 2006 03:19 PM |
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and one more impotant point against conflux2:
nival has other stuff to use their time on. that means swamptown(nagas/lizardmen) and stronghold(orcs/goblins). its better not to demand unimportant additions, as it will consume their time and maybe then well never see stronghold in h5.
____________
Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 31, 2006 04:26 PM |
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Quote:
Well, I agree with Vhilhu in all his points. Especially I think they dont fit with sprites and phoenixes, and there are only four elementals of equal power, so its impossible to create a faction of seven creatures in the line-up. And one more thing I didnt like on the conflux is that the elements should be ballanced, not two fire beings, air elemental completely under and whats the psycho/magic elemental? (thats no true element!) I havent played for this faction wery much (because I dont like it), but I think it its not needed.
You forget something: Before the Armageddon's Blade expansion, there was also only 4 elementals in Heroes 3, and they were all of equal strength (all were level 3 creatures). In the expansion, they added the upgrades to justify separating them to levels 2 through 5, but they were still more like 4 groups of level 3-4 units.
I think the re-surfacing of an elemental town would be good, because that's the only way the Elementals become units with an actual importance in the game. As it is now, they are just something you may encounter as guards, but they never gain an importance in game. The Conflux town changed that in Heroes 3, and I think that was a good thing.
The problem is how to construct this Conflux town. I see too possible approaches, but I'm not sure I see any of them as really good:
1) Either one should work with several levels of Elementals of each kind, as described in my previous post. Thus, you could have level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and perhaps even 7 Elementals of each kind (Earth, Air, Fire, Water). Each conflux should connect to only one Elemental plane, and bring only creatures of that kind. I see the following problems with that approach: a) You'd have to do quadouble work, and essentially develop 4 unit line-ups to settle only one town, and b) the units will probably end up being all very much the same (maybe one will have a high level caster and a low level shooter, another will have a low level caster and a high level shooter, etc. but it won't make that much of a difference).
2) Alternatively, one should make a town, that, instead of having the conventional Level 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 lineup would have something like Level 1-2-4-4-4-4-7 - with the four level 4 units being the current Elementals. The problem would be to make this town ballanced, and avoid the "Phoenix" problem of Heroes 3 (which was, that Phoenix growth became abnormally large to ballance poor lower-level units - which, in some cases made the Conflux *very* strong).
These are the problems I see with the Conflux. I haven't found a solution yet - but I think the Conflux town adds something worthwhile to the game.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted October 31, 2006 04:47 PM |
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Conflux back eh?
well.....no, it would not be fare in heroes 3 they were overpowering everyone else, and besides h5 has all the elementals as upgraded level 4's you cant have more than 1 of the same level on a side, but you could design a fifth elemental or 5th and 6th, like....
Energy elemental
level 5 upgrade
more powerful than the others, uneffected by Dark Magic.
or
Thunder/Lighting elemental
level 4 upgrade (same as rest)
uneffected by lighting bolt
good luck with rest, Ted.
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Visit my Site!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 31, 2006 05:12 PM |
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Quote:
... and besides h5 has all the elementals as upgraded level 4's you cant have more than 1 of the same level on a side ...
Why not?
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 31, 2006 05:37 PM |
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Quote:
You forget something: Before the Armageddon's Blade expansion, there was also only 4 elementals in Heroes 3, and they were all of equal strength (all were level 3 creatures). In the expansion, they added the upgrades to justify separating them to levels 2 through 5, but they were still more like 4 groups of level 3-4 units.
Note: I know about it, just havent mentioned it. Sure, its thze ame problem, but it didnt solve anything, just made the level 5 summon elemental spells useless (a lvl 5 spell summons lvl 2 units?). So would it do with the spell in H5. And to say my oppinion, I would like to have the elementals on same level.
And from the town alternatives, that Alc mentioned I would pick number one. My suggestion is that the creatures dont have to be elementals of different growth but elemental beings, for example lvl 7 could be 4 different elemental dragons, or the creatures could be pale beings whose elements would depend on the battlefield!!! (Tell me, aint this a great idea?  )
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Already gone...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 31, 2006 05:44 PM |
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The Latter is actually an interesting idea ... To have the units of the Conflux being elemental energy manifestations, that take different shape depending on the terrain. It also follows the approach of the Heroes 5 Summon Elemental spell. Interesting.
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted October 31, 2006 05:47 PM |
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the unit seems fine for me.
now, i dont see any town coming into which this unit could fit (not into swamp, certainly not into stronghold). so that would be a problem.
____________
Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 31, 2006 06:51 PM |
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Quote:
The Latter is actually an interesting idea ... To have the units of the Conflux being elemental energy manifestations, that take different shape depending on the terrain. It also follows the approach of the Heroes 5 Summon Elemental spell. Interesting.
Yes, thats exactly what I meant. 
Quote:
the unit seems fine for me.
now, i dont see any town coming into which this unit could fit (not into swamp, certainly not into stronghold). so that would be a problem.
Well, actually the idea was meant for the conflux town. It sure wont fit anywhere else. 
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Already gone...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 31, 2006 07:02 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The Latter is actually an interesting idea ... To have the units of the Conflux being elemental energy manifestations, that take different shape depending on the terrain. It also follows the approach of the Heroes 5 Summon Elemental spell. Interesting.
Yes, thats exactly what I meant.
Could go something like this - just a draft. Basic concepts - Each Element group has 1 Flyer, 1 Shooter, 1 Caster and 1 Walker. Each level also has different types (one and only one flyer on each level, one and only one walker on each level, etc.). Problem: Current Elementals are level 4, but would be level 3 in this scheme - i.e. stats would need to be changed, or names moved.
PS. This is just a thought, not a very worked-over proposal for a faction. It might work, or it might not. Could be fun to go into the concept and develop it further.
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted October 31, 2006 07:03 PM |
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conflux town???? what will be all the other units if only 1 would be elemental?
____________
Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 31, 2006 07:13 PM |
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Alc:
not bad, but I was thinking of having all the conflux creatures *pale* and the will-o-wisp, magic elemental and phoenix dont fit here. Imagine: You are on a battlefield with air element; 4 of your creatures turn into air-oriented and theres a will-o-wisp, a magic elemental and a phoenix! Imagine how cool it would look if your whole conflux army was of same element in combat! And how cool it would be to have a differently-oriented army in each combat!  (Boy, sure wont be easy to play with this...)
Vhilhu:
You still dont understand about what we are talking?
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