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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted November 14, 2006 12:09 AM |
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on any mp game trying to be equal towards players, it would have to be disabled, since the external dwellings would be different from those of other towns and and starting buildings & stuff would be hard to rebalance with other towns.
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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Dragonbreath
Famous Hero
Me like dragons!
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posted November 14, 2006 12:20 AM |
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What do you mean, "change the upg system"? I like it fine the way it is now.
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted November 14, 2006 12:31 AM |
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in single player, yes. it could be a nice gadget, combining the elementals. but in mp it would be a major issue.
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 14, 2006 08:39 AM |
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Quote:
on any mp game trying to be equal towards players, it would have to be disabled, since the external dwellings would be different from those of other towns and and starting buildings & stuff would be hard to rebalance with other towns.
I'm not sure, it would be *that* much of a major issue. First of all, I think it should be done so that each dwelling in the conflux should come as 4 parts: The Elemental Channel (level 1 dwelling) could concist of a Channel of Air, a Channel of Earth, a Channel of Fire and a Channel of Water. That would make it easier to ballance in-town dwellings to other towns. Also, that could help ballance external dwellings, as you would only increase growth of one unit. However, I'm not really sure that's necessary - Conflux might get 4 different units in their dwellings, but their basic growth is considerably lower than comparable units at the same levels in other cities in order to make it ballance. Of course, flagging an external dwelling that'd give you +4 growth on level 5 or 6 would be overpowered ... I'd grant you that ... but I think if the dwellings were singled out for external stands, that'd fix the problem. [You might recognize this as the exact approach taken for Heroes 3, and I think that worked ok]. It might even add to the gameplay - one could add some extra feature - increased growth, or something else - when all 4 dwellings in each level had been built (thus, Alter of Air + Alter of Earth + Altar of Fire + Altar of Water -> Elemental Altar with some sort of bonus).
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted November 14, 2006 11:21 PM |
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i've suddenly realised how many units are going to be available to this town. that 4 at level 1, 4 one level 3 and 4 on level five, and 10 on the others!!!, my word its going to give Ubi nightmares trying to balance it
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Dragonbreath
Famous Hero
Me like dragons!
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posted November 15, 2006 12:12 AM |
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Yes, that idea would be awful. Just have one creature for every level, like all the other factions!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 15, 2006 07:50 AM |
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Quote:
i've suddenly realised how many units are going to be available to this town. that 4 at level 1, 4 one level 3 and 4 on level five, and 10 on the others!!!, my word its going to give Ubi nightmares trying to balance it
That is not so. There will be 4 level 1 units, which you will combine into 2 level 2 units. There are 6 different level 2 units, but you will only be able to have 2 of them available in your town. Moreover, once you've made these 2 level 2 units, you won't have access to the level 1 units any longer. In the same way, there will be 4 level 3 and 4 level 5 units, which you will combine into 2 level 4 and 2 level 6 units respectively. Finally, there will be 1 level 7 unit as in any other town.
Thus, where normal town has 7 units when fully build: Level 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7, this one will have the same number of units, 7, when fully build, but they will be of levels 2 - 2 - 4 - 4 - 6 - 6 - 7. To ballance this, the units will be slightly weeker than the average units of their level, and growth rates will be lower.
Quote:
Yes, that idea would be awful. Just have one creature for every level, like all the other factions!
How boring.  What's the point in adding new towns, if they are exactly like all the other towns?
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Dragonbreath
Famous Hero
Me like dragons!
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posted November 15, 2006 02:21 PM |
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Uh-huh. Then what's the point of having any other faction than, say, haven? They're "all the same" from your point of veiw, so why have them? Really, Ubi is not going to make 4 creatures for every level. You do not need to screw up the upgrade system for a town to be unique. Just do the creatures normally and have the buildings be unique! What's wrong with that?!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 15, 2006 02:43 PM |
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Quote:
Uh-huh. Then what's the point of having any other faction than, say, haven? They're "all the same" from your point of veiw, so why have them? Really, Ubi is not going to make 4 creatures for every level. You do not need to screw up the upgrade system for a town to be unique. Just do the creatures normally and have the buildings be unique! What's wrong with that?!
Well, first off, chances that Ubi will ever do any of the things we discuss in this forum is like 0.01 %, so if we have a fun idea, I think we should discuss it, no matter what the chances are that Ubi will implement them. Secondly, the Conflux / Elemental thing is special, because we're not really talking about 4 different creatures - there are 4 typos - the Air / Earth / Fire / Water creature, that exists in different versions - a level 1 version, a level 3 version, and a level 5 version - with different abilities and stats, but essentially the same creatures. The developing work would therefore be very limited in reality.
Thirdly, I don't think all the towns are equal - my point is, that each town has to have a strong theme in order to be justified being in the game. I think the current towns all are very coherent, and sit well with each other and with their theme. The reason why we developed this concept was that we wanted to develop an interesting concept of elemental beings, that was fun to play and at the same time true to the concepts of the current game - one of them being, that the 4 elements are equally strong, which rules out the level 2-3-4-5 combo of Heroes 3 - which imo. never worked very well anyway. I personally find the line-up sketched previously to succeed in this.
And if you don't like our ideas - no problem with that. You can also develop your own ideas, and you might even come up with something that we find better. But for me, the idea of merging the elementals is more fun an innovative than just copying the old concept that most players didn't like very well. And it's really not that complicated at all.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted November 16, 2006 04:43 AM |
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Edited by Daystar at 04:46, 16 Nov 2006.
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Guys? Stop bickering.
One: Balancing: not too much of a problem. As Alc said, It's just a matter of tweaking a few numbers here, a few effects there. and since it would take longer to build up the town, the elementalsist would have to choose between lots of units or a fast build.
Two: Numbers. I was confused here.
I thought, 10 Manifestations, 10 Elementals, 10 Spirits, 2 level 7s.
Five are already modeled, so that's only 27 models. there are normaly 14 that have to be made, so that's almost like modeling two towns. then again, if they just add some little enhancements to each level, keeping the same actions, it would equate to about the work for 17 models. Or were you thinking that a Fire Manifestation and a Fire Spirit would look the same?
Three: Temples. Actually, the three I had, in order, were, Plasma, Magma, and Clay. I'll make Water, Fire and Earth now.
Four: Spells.
Fyre Brand: Selected unit is more succeptible to firey/hot/flame based attacks.
Watyr Brand: Selected unit is more succeptible to watery/wet/ice based attacks.
Ayre Brand: Selected unit is more succeptible to windy/gustish/air based attacks.
Eyrth Brand: Selected unit is more succeptible to earthy/rock/nature based attacks.
Fyre Ward: Selected unit is defended from firey/hot/flame based attacks.
Watyr Ward: Selected unit is defended from watery/wet/ice based attacks.
Ayre Ward: Selected unit is defended from windy/gustish/air based attacks.
Eyrth Brand: Selected unit is defended from earthy/rock/nature based attacks.
Also, Could someone look at the histories I made and review? the lack of response makes me feel very sad 
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 16, 2006 09:10 AM |
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Quote:
Guys? Stop bickering.
One: Balancing: not too much of a problem. As Alc said, It's just a matter of tweaking a few numbers here, a few effects there. and since it would take longer to build up the town, the elementalsist would have to choose between lots of units or a fast build.
Two: Numbers. I was confused here.
I thought, 10 Manifestations, 10 Elementals, 10 Spirits, 2 level 7s.
It's correct there will be a total of 10 each Manifestations, Elementals and Spirits - of these, 4 will be of the lower level (1 vs. 2; 3 vs. 4; 5 vs. 6 - these are Air, Earth, Fire, and Water) and 6 will be of the higher level (these are Storm, Plasma, Dust (sand), Steam, Mud, and Magma). However, each town will have access to only 2 of the 6 at the higher level at a time - of course, graphics and stats will need to be developed for all units, but since Manifestations, Elementals and Spirits could have the same textures and only look different in size and shape, the graphical developing requiring would not be too heavy.
Quote:
Four: Spells.
Fyre Brand: Selected unit is more succeptible to firey/hot/flame based attacks.
Watyr Brand: Selected unit is more succeptible to watery/wet/ice based attacks.
Ayre Brand: Selected unit is more succeptible to windy/gustish/air based attacks.
Eyrth Brand: Selected unit is more succeptible to earthy/rock/nature based attacks.
Fyre Ward: Selected unit is defended from firey/hot/flame based attacks.
Watyr Ward: Selected unit is defended from watery/wet/ice based attacks.
Ayre Ward: Selected unit is defended from windy/gustish/air based attacks.
Eyrth Brand: Selected unit is defended from earthy/rock/nature based attacks.
I deffinitely feel the concept of spells would need to be considered, in one context or another. I once - a long time ago - suggested a complete reworking of the magic/spells system, which would incorporate a strong connection to Elemental magic in the Summoning School (go read the third post in this rather long topic for more info. I still feel that change would be highly relevant, and deffintely would suite this town excellently. You will notice that the spells Elemental Shield and Elemental Weakness of the Summoning School / Elemental Class exactly matches your suggestions above.
Quote:
Also, Could someone look at the histories I made and review? the lack of response makes me feel very sad
Finally, I did now read your history before, therefore no comments. I will say I am personally not very interested in the histories of the factions - it's a nice feature, but I am most of all a concept developer. Still, I'd have to say, in order to make this history "work" within the frames of the game, we would have to consider the following problems:
- The Elementals have been in the game from the beginning, but they have now changed character.
- There is suddenly a possibility of merging elemental beings of different kinds into new types of beings.
- The Phoenix now has an allegiance.
Some ideas to consider:
- The war with the Demons have ripped the fabric between the material and the elemental planes, giving rise to new and increased numbers of elemental beings?
- A branch of the Warlocks and/or the Wizards have diverged from their usual path and have delved deeply into the secrets of Elemental magic, thus developing the tecnique of merging elementals to make more powerfull ones - this could even rise from a co-operation between Warlocks (destructive magic has strong elemental ties) and Wizards (summoning magic has strong summoning and animating ties). [This would make a nice theme for a campaign!]
- An entirely new race have arived on the planet to bring in the knowledge of Elementals (less likely and/or disarable solution than the above imo.).
- These events have happened *after* the events of the campaigns in the current game. I don't like the idea of another secret faction too much.
Just some thoughts to work on ...
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted November 16, 2006 08:16 PM |
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possible story
either that or...
from the seculeded island of Nariya, the elemental races watched and wept for the lives of the living being lost in the wars on mainland Ashan. they watched as warriors fell and inch by inch, the races of the world are destroyed themselves. the emperor looked on, a grim frown on his face. finally, he dispatched a force of peace keepers to mainland Ashan, to help restore the peace. the Elementals were universally recognised, in the anicent times, as a intelligent, harmonious race, who were often the voice of reason in times of strife.
however, when the peace keepers landed, they where mistaken by some demons as comming to help the forces of good, and brutally butchered, their entrials (they have them, they just are slightly more elemental than normal) posted on the coast that they landed, a sure sign that the anicent times were coming to an end.
the Emporer, along with almost all of the elemental races, was horrified, and emediatly send a message to their nearest allies, the Elves of Irollan, the Naga of (insert place here, Lost Palaedra would be appropriate) and the dwarves of Grimheim to help push back the demon forces. they sent some vast Citedals (they sort of warp, kind of like using teleportation, but on a much grander scale) to secure the mainland for the elemental races arival.
this is the story for my conflux. others can be suggested for the other one, but i'm sticking to mine!
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 16, 2006 11:59 PM |
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Quote:
... their entrials (they have them, they just are slightly more elemental than normal) ...
*lol*
I love that particular bit. 
___
Edit > Woohoo ... I'm supreme now ... come on guys, you cannot stop me!
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What will happen now?
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crepus
Adventuring Hero
Nuclear Power Plant
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posted November 17, 2006 01:06 AM |
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Why oh why...
Dear people, having read/skimmed so far I really do wonder why only ONE person hitherto has suggested anything REMOTELY like light/darkness elementals. There are SIX elemental dragons, so why on Ashas Wings are there not six elementals to start with?
And, since what's-his-face trasncended and became the seventh dragon, I strongly feel that some sort of creature should be his "elemental" as well. Maybe some sort of magic elem. And while we're at it, throw in an order elemental too, to be the Ultimate Manifestation of Asha.
A humble suggestion thus:
* let the Wisp/Will'o'Wisp be some sort of magic elemental, maybe absorbing mana from enemy creatures (not heroes), gaining attack and defence in the process (or chanelling to friendly casters).
* add a Light Elemental with a blinding attack and some spells (divine strength, cleansing, magical immunity).
* add a Darkness Elemental with a cursing retaliation (say it decreases both attack, defence and morale with one and initiative with 30% for three turns). And maybe a fear attack.
* let the Order Elemental be a high-and-mighty level chap with Unlimited Retaliation and an until-creature-has-had-one-movement Puppet Master attack.
I do kinda like the mix'em-elementals. Maybe some clever person can incorporate the Light and Dark into that mix as well?
TTFN
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Mater tua criceta fuit, et Pater tuo
redoluit bacarum sambucus.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted November 17, 2006 04:33 AM |
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I'll look at it. that would be a good optional level 7. no upgrades, you choose one or the other.
Also, here's a story:
"A tear fell from the Elementalist's eye. The world was fire, magma, pain and violence, all falling into shadow. He knew that the end of the world had come. And it was making a hell of an entrance. He looked back into the huge room full of the surviving Elementalists and their followers. Those skilled in Magykal Mechanics were errecting the last of the Devices that would save them from the destruction of their planet.
As the last device was put in place, the crystals on each structure glowed. A ring of light pulsed through the room, and the world began to open. The door way led to salvation, hope for a new begining. But just as the spell finnished, everyone knew something was terribly wrong.
There was a sideways jerk, and every Elemental, every Planeswalker, all down to the last book of summoning was pulled through the gap.
And in a burst of light, a rushing sound, and another jerk, Erathia was gone.
The company sped through light and dark, star and sun, matter and time. The embodyments of magic and psychic energy were ripped apart by the energy of the spell. All was pain and fire and an increasing rush through the vortexes the spell had opened. And then, when it seemed the rushing would go on forever, it all stopped, and everything was calm. Two Eyes, not human, not monster, not light or dark, but simply orbs like the moon, two round eyes opened. And they spoke one word:
COME
And with a flash, the Elementalists found themselves on dry land agian, with the gentle lap of the sea in their ears."
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 17, 2006 11:53 AM |
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That's actually very well written!
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What will happen now?
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted November 18, 2006 05:08 PM |
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Quote:
Dear people, having read/skimmed so far I really do wonder why only ONE person hitherto has suggested anything REMOTELY like light/darkness elementals. There are SIX elemental dragons, so why on Ashas Wings are there not six elementals to start with?
And, since what's-his-face trasncended and became the seventh dragon, I strongly feel that some sort of creature should be his "elemental" as well. Maybe some sort of magic elem. And while we're at it, throw in an order elemental too, to be the Ultimate Manifestation of Asha.
A humble suggestion thus:
* let the Wisp/Will'o'Wisp be some sort of magic elemental, maybe absorbing mana from enemy creatures (not heroes), gaining attack and defence in the process (or chanelling to friendly casters).
* add a Light Elemental with a blinding attack and some spells (divine strength, cleansing, magical immunity).
* add a Darkness Elemental with a cursing retaliation (say it decreases both attack, defence and morale with one and initiative with 30% for three turns). And maybe a fear attack.
* let the Order Elemental be a high-and-mighty level chap with Unlimited Retaliation and an until-creature-has-had-one-movement Puppet Master attack.
I do kinda like the mix'em-elementals. Maybe some clever person can incorporate the Light and Dark into that mix as well?
TTFN
thats me!!!!!
i was thinking of something like
light+fire= lantern
Light+earth= flower
Light+water= lagoon
Light+wind= ???????
Darkness+fire= grimfire
Darkness+earth= Casym
Darkness+water= deep
Darkness+wind= ??????
Light+ Darkness= Neutrality
Quote:
I'll look at it. that would be a good optional level 7. no upgrades, you choose one or the other.
Also, here's a story:
"A tear fell from the Elementalist's eye. The world was fire, magma, pain and violence, all falling into shadow. He knew that the end of the world had come. And it was making a hell of an entrance. He looked back into the huge room full of the surviving Elementalists and their followers. Those skilled in Magykal Mechanics were errecting the last of the Devices that would save them from the destruction of their planet.
As the last device was put in place, the crystals on each structure glowed. A ring of light pulsed through the room, and the world began to open. The door way led to salvation, hope for a new begining. But just as the spell finnished, everyone knew something was terribly wrong.
There was a sideways jerk, and every Elemental, every Planeswalker, all down to the last book of summoning was pulled through the gap.
And in a burst of light, a rushing sound, and another jerk, Erathia was gone.
The company sped through light and dark, star and sun, matter and time. The embodyments of magic and psychic energy were ripped apart by the energy of the spell. All was pain and fire and an increasing rush through the vortexes the spell had opened. And then, when it seemed the rushing would go on forever, it all stopped, and everything was calm. Two Eyes, not human, not monster, not light or dark, but simply orbs like the moon, two round eyes opened. And they spoke one word:
COME
And with a flash, the Elementalists found themselves on dry land agian, with the gentle lap of the sea in their ears."
my word, Daystar, you should try out for a short story competion. this stuff is really good!!
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 18, 2006 05:26 PM |
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Quote:
i was thinking of something like
light+fire= lantern
Light+earth= flower
Light+water= lagoon
Light+wind= ???????
Darkness+fire= grimfire
Darkness+earth= Casym
Darkness+water= deep
Darkness+wind= ??????
Light+ Darkness= Neutrality
Oh please spare me, whoever would accept a FLOWER elemental in the game??? The only reason it would ever work would be because your opponents died laughing when you showed up with your army of Flower Elementals, Lantern Elementals and Lagoon Elementals.
What's next - the Advanced Class of the Hero being "Gardener"? *lol*
____________
What will happen now?
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted November 18, 2006 05:36 PM |
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oh come on, they were just ideas.
have you any better ideas to combine Light and darkness elementals with the other elementals?
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 18, 2006 05:50 PM |
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I don't think the Lightness and Darkness elementals are a very good idea. I like the idea of mixing the other elementals because they are already in the game, and because the combinations of those 4 elementals will yield exactly 6 different types, a number which matches the number of different creatures below 7th level in other towns.
I think 6 + 4 different types of elementals are more than enough, and I don't see any need for introducing more of them. I understand and see the logic in having a Darkness and Light elemental, but given the circumstances, I think the alternate approach will be more interesting. That's just my 5 cents, but that's why I didn't include the Light and Darkness elemental in my lineup. And I think that combining the Light/Darkness elementals with the other elementals is a *very* bad idea, because it'll yield WAY too many new types of elementals - and your suggestions for these types clearly prove that there's absolutely no need for that!
If one should introduce a Light/Darkness elemental it should either a) be a choice between either, and they should yield certain bonuses (Light elemental has bonus towards evil creatures, Darkness elemental has bonus toward good creatures) or b) be two elementals that are both available, and can mix with each other - and only each other - to yield a Shadow Elemental (or Dusk Elemental or whatever name you might prefer). However, as I said above, I'm not keen on that approach, as it gives a lot of new Elementals where, really, no more are needed. Therefore, I still stick to my oppinion that the Phoenix / Firebird - which are already in the game! - are the best selections for level 7.
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What will happen now?
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This thread is pages long: 
