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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 06, 2006 06:32 PM |
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conjurors class skill is to similar to the summoning magic, i think.
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alcibiades
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posted December 06, 2006 09:23 PM |
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Well, you haven't heard what it's about, have you? 
Actually, I was thinking about re-implementing the Heroes 4 Summoning Skill. I always felt that skill had potential to be developed into something good.
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Daystar
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posted December 06, 2006 11:46 PM |
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my thoughts for a racial ability were that the hero could use mana + recources to combine elementals into upgraded ones, as it were, so, in the heat of battle, You've got Ten Fire Elementals and Nine Earth Elementals, and you can combine them into one stack of Magma Elementals. Numbers:
Basic Mastery: you would have 9, (the average, rounded down)
Advanced Mastery: you would have 10, (the average, rounded up)
Expert Mastery: you would have 14 (75% of the total)
Ultimate Mastery: you would have 19 (the total)
So, Advanced Mastery, 26 Waters, 14 Airs =
20 Storms.
What you can combine/split based on Mastery:
Basic = Manifestations
Advanced = Manifestations + Elementals
Expert = Manifestations + Elementals + Spirits
Combinations would cost recources.
Water = Mercury (Creature Number/(10/15/20/30))
Fire = Sulfur (Creature Number/(10/15/20/30))
Air = Crystal (Creature Number/(10/15/20/30))
Earth = Gems (Creature Number/(10/15/20/30))
(10/15/20/30) = (Basic/Advanced/Expert/Ultimate)
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alcibiades
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posted December 07, 2006 09:22 AM |
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I *really* think that combination should be on a 1:1 basis *only* - the other thing simply doesn't make sense to me. Potentially, you could mix 29 Air elemental and 1 Water elemental to make 20 Storm Elementals, and that doesn't make any sense at all. Therefore I say, always 1:1.
I also think that "mixing" should be a property inherent to the town structures rather than something the Hero does - but that's just my oppinion. However, you should be aware that in the model you suggest, in a fully upgraded town, you wouldn't be able to purchase and house all the units in the Garrison. I think that's one of many problems with that solution.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 07, 2006 10:16 PM |
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you mean like the ritual pit for dungeon, or the arcane forge for academy.
how about "the Element chamber" as a name of a place where you can mix elementals!
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted December 07, 2006 11:01 PM |
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Quote:
you mean like the ritual pit for dungeon, or the arcane forge for academy.
how about "the Element chamber" as a name of a place where you can mix elementals!
sounds good, very good
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Daystar
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posted December 08, 2006 12:28 AM |
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that is a point, were would a person put the elementals? in total, you would need 19 spaces, apart from the regular 7. OOP! THAT could be the hero ability: upgrading space abilities. The town could have an unlimited amount of space.
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alcibiades
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posted December 08, 2006 12:42 AM |
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Hardly a very interesting ability. 
But I'm really torn on this. On one hand, I would prefer to have the combining of elementals being something that was determined entirely by structures - like having a Shrine of Storm, that could be tied to for instance you Altar of Air and Water to produce Storm Spirits instead of Air and Water Spirits. The pros for this solution will be that a) in a fully developed town, you will only have the regular 7 creatures available for recruitment (2 Manifestations, 2 Elementals, 2 Spirits + Phoenix), and b) You will be able to recruit the units no matter whether the Hero is present in the town or not (which means you'll also be able to purchase units and summon them with Summon Creatures spell, or bring them out with Caravan or other Hero!). Cons will be - hmm, no real cons with this solution.
On the other hand, the idea of having the combining of elementals being tied to the Class Skill has merit. It makes sense with the usual three levels of Skills (Basic = Manifestations, Advanced = Elementals, Expert = Spirits), and it makes sense with the special building in the city (Chamber of Elements or something else). Thus, the pros would be that a) it takes care of racial ability, b) it's suitable for building structure, but the cons would be that a) hero is required in town to combine creatures, which makes summoning and transportation difficult, and b) the Conflux town would not be playable with a none-elementalist hero. These cons are serious issues that make me question the latter solution. One solution might be something like what I suggested for the Training problem: Tie the Hero to the town, and make the upgrading process available in the town even though he is not present, as long as he has the required skill level.
No matter which solution is chosen, I think the following points are adamant:
- Combination should be on a 1:1 basis only.
- Combination should be 100 % effective. Otherwise, the Skill would not be usable at lower levels, because you original creatures would be stronger than you final creatures!
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Daystar
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posted December 08, 2006 03:16 AM |
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true. and you could solve both cons for the latter solution by having a cheap, low level structure that says that any hero can combine elementals as long as they are in the town.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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alcibiades
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posted December 08, 2006 09:54 AM |
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I'm not quite certain how that would work ... On one hand, you would require a certain skill to do it, and on the other, you could make a building that allowed any hero to do it. Would you have that building only available to build after your hero had the required skill?
I think that solution is a bit counterintuitive and I'm not sure it'd work well in the game - or at least, I feel there might be better solutions. Tying the hero to the city is one (that would be the Heroes 4 Nobility approach, and I actually think that worked quite ok). Of course, the downside of that would be that for each city, you needed a new hero to tie to it, in order to use this ability - but then, buying a new hero and upgrade him two or three levels to gain the required skill would not be that much of a problem.
Having the skill level of you primary hero working as a global modifier for all your cities is another solution. It would solve the problem with multiple heroes - but again, it's a bit counterintuitive.
All in all, I actually feel at the moment the Heroes 4 Nobility approach would be the best solution, if we wanted to have this tied to the hero skill level.
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Daystar
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posted December 09, 2006 01:05 AM |
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Quote:
counterintuitive
Shprekeze Engles?
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alcibiades
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posted December 09, 2006 12:30 PM |
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Counterintuitive as in what is against you logical approach.
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Daystar
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posted December 09, 2006 03:39 PM |
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a! Mihi est complexu vocaber
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alcibiades
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posted December 10, 2006 01:56 PM |
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So, Daystar, I think I found a solution, that might satisfy all our needs. I sort of came up with this idea this morning, and I think it's very good - so I'd like to have your thoughts on it.
Conflux Dwellings
The current Dwellings should be available in the town:
Level 1 Dwellings
Channel of Air - Air Manifestations - 5 Wood + 1000 Gold
Channel of Water - Water Manifestations - 5 Wood + 1000 Gold
Channel of Fire - Fire Manifestations - 5 Ore + 1000 Gold
Channel of Earth - Earth Manifestations - 5 Ore + 1000 Gold
Level 3 Dwellings
Portal of Air - Air Elementals - 10 Wood + 5 Crystal + 3000 Gold
Portal of Water - Water Elementals - 10 Wood + 5 Mercury + 3000 Gold
Portal of Fire - Fire Elementals - 10 Ore + 5 Sulfur + 3000 Gold
Portal of Earth - Earth Elementals - 10 Ore + 5 Gems + 3000 Gold
Level 5 Dwellings
Altar of Air - Air Spirits - 10 Wood + 10 Crystal + 5000 Gold
Altar of Water - Water Spirits - 10 Wood + 10 Mercury + 5000 Gold
Altar of Fire - Fire Spirits - 10 Ore + 10 Sulfur + 5000 Gold
Altar of Earth - Earth Spirits - 10 Ore + 10 Gems + 5000 Gold
Level 7 Dwellings
Something - Firebirds - 10 Wood + 10 Ore + 10 Crystal + 10 Sulfur + 10.000 Gold
Something Upgraded - Phoenix - 10 Wood + 10 Ore + 20 Sulfur + 12.000 Gold
Costs are just guidelines.
Elemental Guild
The Conflux should have a special building called the Elemental Guild similar to the Dwarven Runic Guild. It comes in 3 levels, and each level can be chosen in one of 3 types, as described below. The Elemental Guild allows you to combine basic elemental beings (Air, Water, Fire, Earth) into advanced elemental beings (Storm, Plasma, Dust, Steam, Clay, Magma) in the garrison. Thus, once the Elemental Guild is build, everybody can combine creatures in the garrison - however, in order to take the combined creatures out of the garrison and into your army, you need to have the appropriate level in the skill Elemental Control (see below).
The allowed combinations is determined by the type of Guild (see bolow).
Level 1 Elemental Guild
Allows you to combine basic Manifestations into advanced Manifestations. The combination process is free. Building Cost: 5 Wood + 5 Ore + 1 Crystal + 1 Mercury + 1 Sulfur + 1 Gem + 2000 Gold.
Level 2 Elemental Guild
Allows you to combine basic Elementals into advanced Elementals. The combination process is free. Building Cost: 5 Wood + 5 Ore + 3 Crystals + 3 Mercury + 3 Sulfur + 3 Gems + 4000 Gold.
Level 3 Elemental Guild
Allows you to combine basic Spirits into advanced Spirits. The combination process is free. Building Cost: 5 Wood + 5 Ore + 5 Crystals + 5 Mercury + 5 Sulfur + 5 Gems + 6000 Gold.
Guild types: There are 3 Guild types - Guild of Harmony, Guild of Ballance, and Guild of Chaos. Each guild type can only be build once - thus, if you build a Level 1 Guild of Chaos, you will have to select either a Level 2 Guild of Harmony or Level 2 Guild of Ballance - and, depending on your choice, will have only the remaining version available for level 3.
Guild of Harmony
The Guild of Harmony allows you to make the following combinations:
- Air + Water > Storm
- Fire + Earth > Magma
Guild of Ballance
The Guild of Ballance allows you to make the following combinations:
- Air + Fire > Plasma
- Water + Earth > Clay
The Guild of Chaos
The Guild of Chaos allows you to make the following combinations:
- Air + Earth > Dust
- Water + Fire > Steam
Other special buildings like the Shrines you mention to give bonuses to stats could still be available.
Class Skill - Elemental Control
The skill Elemental Control allows the Hero to control the elements of combined elemental beings. Since the "mixing" of the elementals into the advanced beings is an unnatural process, the Hero needs this skill to keep the Elementals from decomposing into their native seperate elements.
Basic Elemental Control
Allows the Hero to have advanced Manifestations in his army.
Advanced Elemental Control
Allows the Hero to have advanced Elementals in his army.
Expert Elemental Control
Allows the Hero to have advanced Spirits in his army.
Ultimate Elemental Control
... Something ... Possibly allowing him to mix the elementals while not being in the town.
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Notes
I think this solution is good, because it will:
- Include the Class Skill for the concept of Elemental Combination.
- Allow you to combine Elementals for city defence without necessarily having the appropriate skill.
- Allow you to recruite all creatures into the garrison in a fully build town.
- Allow a Hero with the appropriate skill to summon the creatures into his army.
- Include a nice town-specific structure (the Elemental Guild).
One problem remains with unit transport in Caravans and/or Secondary heros, but I think that's ok.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 10, 2006 03:08 PM |
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 wow!!
you certianly did your homework
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Daystar
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posted December 10, 2006 05:41 PM |
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Edited by Daystar at 17:41, 10 Dec 2006.
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Alc, If you ever decide to go into the video game industry, find somewhere that lets you do things like what you have done. This is a perfect solution, and my only complaints are names.
Guild of Harmony
The Guild of Harmony allows you to make the following combinations:
- Air + Water > Storm
- Fire + Earth > Magma
Guild of Melding (???)
The Guild of Ballance allows you to make the following combinations:
- Air + Fire > Plasma
- Water + Earth > Clay
The Guild of Chaos
The Guild of Chaos allows you to make the following combinations:
- Air + Earth > Sand
- Water + Fire > Steam
Also, Pfenix Dwellings: How about Palm Tree and Palm Tree Pyre. I repeat, Pfenix in mythology set themselves ablaze on a Palm Tree.
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alcibiades
Honorable
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posted December 10, 2006 06:10 PM |
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Thanx! 
About the names - I was never really good at that! I chose the terms Harmony, Ballance and Chaos more or less randomly, but since you can consider the elements to be opposed Air <-> Earth and Water <-> Fire, and furthermore Air = Water to be closest, and Fire = Earth to be most similar, I picked these names for:
Harmony (or order) when most like elements were combined.
Chaos when most different elements were combined.
Balance for intermediate solution.
However, a different system would be nice - for instance, grouping the Storm element in the group of "Harmony" seems a bit strange.
About the Palmtree Pyre ... Yeah, I guess it makes sense, sort of - I would just like something more grand and majestic for this dwelling. After all, it's a level 7 Dwelling, and a Palmtree just seems so - plain! But maybe that's just my need for theatry.
And Sand or Dust ... doesn't matter that much to me. However, Dust has a sort of more airy feel for me ... but well, one or the other, it doesn't make much of a difference, I suppose.
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Daystar
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posted December 10, 2006 06:13 PM |
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True on both counts. I just feel sand is more powerfull than dust. Dust to me makes me think of Vampires Post BtVS Slaying. Also, you are right about the palm tree. What would be good for this unit?
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alcibiades
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posted December 10, 2006 06:24 PM |
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Quote:
What would be good for this unit?
No clues.
Some sort of Hanging Gardens? There could be Palms in those. 
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Daystar
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posted December 10, 2006 10:25 PM |
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This thread is pages long: 
