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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 22, 2009 02:12 PM |
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The official HC religion thread
Discussing religion in TA's "I gave up on believing in God" feels like offtopic, and OSM feedback definitely isn't the place for arguing about it, so, guys.. here's your topic.
Discuss (here are some auxiliary questions):
1. What do you think of religion in general?
2. What is religion and what is not?
3. How do you feel in society as atheist/theist/agnostic?
4. Why do you believe/don't believe in God/gods?
5. What do you think of afterlife (this is a question mainly to atheists) - does is exist?
6. Why this religion and not another (to theists) and what do you think about other religions than your own - are they true/acceptable?
7. Is it possible for someone/something (i.e. some event) to change your attitude towards religion?
8. Do you think religion and science contradict each other, overlap or are not related in any way and therefore shouldn't be compared?
9. What do you think about loopholes in logic which trouble nearly all religions? How do you explain them?
10. Can religion be harmful in any way, or is it just an unfortunate scapegoat (the "knife or cutler" problem)?
Have fun:
GOLDEN RULE: TRY NOT TO QUOTE. TRY NOT TO ANSWER TO LITTLE PARTS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT IF YOU REALLY MUST QUOTE SOMEONE.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 22, 2009 03:16 PM |
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Wow ... could we cover a bit more ground in this topic?
Ok, on topic, I don't think much about religion. I think it was a good thing, maybe even necesary, back in the days, when there were questions that we could not answer with science - hence, it gave an answer so people could worry about other things.
Today - not so much. I don't see a problem with people being religiously, as long as they a) don't take ancient writings literally, and b) don't infer their beliefs on others.
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What will happen now?
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted July 22, 2009 03:26 PM |
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Can't we just talk Freely?
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Vini Vidi Vici
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2009 04:18 PM |
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1. I'm not a fan of it, but it's all right, as long as it's not murderous and doesn't stop people from thinking for themselves.
2. A religion is an organised belief in (and sometimes worship of) things beyond the material world.
3. Sometimes I have felt the occasional annoyance as an atheist in the Bible Belt. The occasional ignorance - something like "Why do you hate God?" or "You atheists worship Satan!" - is fail. But most people, once they get to know you, put that difference aside.
4. Because I see no rational reason to believe in the unverifiable.
5. Of course, it is impossible to know anything reliable about the afterlife, but I don't think there is one. Once you die, you cease to exist.
7. Yes. A theocratic takeover of the government would probably make my attitude towards religion more negative. And if God were to somehow appear and be verifiable, then I'd believe in him/her/it.
8. Some aspects of religion (such as Young Earth Creationism) are indeed disproved by science. Others can find a cohabitation.
9. It's a complicated thing - it has origins in explaining the unknown, as well as dominating people. So naturally it would have flaws.
10. Of course religion can be harmful, whenever it causes us to harm ourselves or our futures. It can cause strife and division between people - wars, persecutions, distrust, etc.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 22, 2009 04:23 PM |
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Quote:
and doesn't stop people from thinking for themselves.
You should consider banning advertising then. 
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 22, 2009 09:54 PM |
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I can pretty much answer all the OP's questions (note I said almost) with the following statement. I believe religion is a very personal thing, and that as long as the people in the religion do not need special rules in order to follow their religion then it is all good.
Let me try to explain. If everybody in an area has a no chicken killing 'law' and the religion calls for "Death to the infidel chickens' (Nod to Omega here ) and they try to get a special consideration so THEY can kill chickens..then it is wrong.
Which I can sum up in "An it harm none, do as you will." 
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Message received.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted July 22, 2009 11:43 PM |
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religion imo is a tool for people to controll other people. using it as excuse to go to war ,kill,or do something in the name of higher couse is stupid,and hippocriticle.
I think if i would had a chance to and a way i'd ban religion.
i dont see anything good out of it.
oh and i mean all religion,not just monoistical. whhich are most banal and boring.
i mean i could live with budahism,or kind of religion with meny gods. and i dont care if it have idols. i hate the word pagen,find it offensive even. it's a word of one religion insulting another. hence no objectivness.
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types in obscure english
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 23, 2009 01:00 AM |
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1. I do not think religion is nescessary in a modern society. I dont think its needed anymore. Back in the days, it might have been useful to "bind" people together if you know what I mean and explain the mysteries of the world. Long ago, the world was a more dangerous and dark place and religion could have offered guidance and support in those times.
2. Religion is a lifestyle and a philosophy you follow. I dont view religion as an always accurate source of information. The Bible etc was written my humans. You cant seriously believe, in a modern country, that woman were created from the ribs of a man and the Earth was created in 7 days etc.
3. Since most people in Sweden are atheists, I dont feel anything But sometimes, like when some muslim "tortures" his daugther because she loves a Swedish dude, I just wish that religion would die out.
4. I dont believe in Gods because it does not seem to make any sense to me. We control our own lifes. The main argument for an intelligent designers by religious people seems to be that "The Earth is so beautiful so it cannot have been a coincidence". But we have already found other planets that look like our own. Are they also created by God? Do they have their own Jesus etc?
5. I admit that I WANT to believe in afterlife. But I just cant "lie" to myself. We die because we have served our purpose on the planet. Now I wouldnt be suprised if there are souls the soul is bounched back to Earth, causing reincarnation, but if that is the case then I dont believe there is anything divine about it.
6. This was not directed to me >.>
7. Yes and no. I would never let anyone "force" me into believing in something that I deny to exist. However, if I got more information etc then perhaps I would change my attitude to religions like Islam. I understand that there are few of those extreme muslims but you hear so much about them in the media etc. If I got more information about what modern Islan and modern muslims practice and teach etc then perhaps I would get a more friendly attitude towards that religion.
8. I certainly believe you can connect religion to science in many ways. However some extreme christains (im looking at you Elodin) that say that the Bible is the direct word of God would never accept any errors in the Bible etc. God could very well be connected to Big Bang and im sure many modern religious people are open to create bridges between Science and Religion instead of walls.
9. What? You mean like errors in religions (like the Earth is at most 10,000 years old)? Because religions were created by us. The Bible was written by humans and is constantly changing. There are lots of political "hate refrences" in those books too. I remember seeing a TV show that said that Satan is connected to some Roman emperor.
10. Yes. Religions are dangerous. Countless of lifes would have been spared if it wasnt because of conflicts and "holy wars" between religions. Just look at the whole Israel stuff.
The Palestians argue that the Jews stole their land (which I agree with) etc. Without religion, that would never happen.
There you have some of my opinions.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted July 23, 2009 02:36 PM |
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i dissagree with 10 politicl reasons aside.
being differnt from what you said religion didnt couse that ,humane nature did.
please in a nothr thread,base your reasons for 10.
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sphere
Supreme Hero
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posted July 26, 2009 02:48 AM |
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btw, I'm not an Atheist
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Who is this General Failure, and why is he looking at my disk ?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 01, 2009 11:20 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:22, 01 Sep 2009.
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Religion. A hot button topic that can often do more harm then good. Not the religion themselves, but the people in them. So convinced they know 'the truth' and are 'right' they don't even stop to consider any possible flaws. Despite the fact that the books were written by man, edited by man, copied by man in a time when all copying was done by HAND.
Meh getting off on a tangent. Anyhow..discussing religion is all fine, but people have got to keep it civil. If not it just turns into a shouting match where nobody is even bothering to listen. Anti-Theist just love trying to get a 'rise' out of anybody who is religious while 'bible thumpers' just love to get a 'rise' out of anti-theist. So both can point at the other and say "See, he doesn't want to discuss, blah blah blah."
I love a good honest, open debate. Where people actually listen to each other. As soon as one realises they are hitting their head on the proverbial wall, however, they should just drop it. Saves a lot of people a lot of time and grief.
Now personally I like to know what somebody thinks. Not what scriptures they can quote, or how many. What they personally think on the matter. Even if they think I am a flaming dunderhead that doesn't know my head from a hole in the ground. At least it is an original thought, not just regurgitated.
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Message received.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted September 01, 2009 11:29 AM |
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Edited by bixie at 11:29, 01 Sep 2009.
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this is going to end in tears
to make me put more oil on the fire, please text the answer "oil" to *****, or for me to start throwing grenades at it, text the answer "Bang"
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 01, 2009 11:31 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:35, 01 Sep 2009.
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[offtopic]SOME say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice, 5
I think I know enough of hate
To know that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Robert Frost - Fire and Ice
[/offtopic]
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted September 01, 2009 03:08 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:16, 01 Sep 2009.
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Quote:
Religion. A hot button topic that can often do more harm then good. Not the religion themselves, but the people in them. So convinced they know 'the truth' and are 'right' they don't even stop to consider any possible flaws. Despite the fact that the books were written by man, edited by man, copied by man in a time when all copying was done by HAND.
I find censorship of religion and free expression of "religious" beliefs to be a cause of great evil.
The Bible was not written by man, it was written through man. The Bible was written under the inspiration of the Spirit of God. We know from textual criticism and the many thousands of documents that we have the original words of the Bible to 99.99% accuracy.
One should expect religious texts to be quoted in a religious debate. People who believe in divine revelation and that God has given us Scripture view the scripture as authoritative and official theology of their religion. You don't have to respect their holy book but you should understand why they reference it. And certainly you can't prove that the Bible for example was not inspired by God even though it seems to be your opinion that is was not.
You seem to be convinced that you know "the truth" and are "right" about your opinion of the Bible so you can't really condemn Christians for being convinced of their beliefs.
You claim to respect the beliefs of others but do you really? I'm not saying you don't, merely asking you to read what you have written and reflect on the question because the way you have written your posts in this thread it seems you have disdain for people who are convinced the Bible is the Word of God.
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Revelation
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 01, 2009 11:42 PM |
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Quote:
And certainly you can't prove that the Bible for example was not inspired by God even though it seems to be your opinion that is was not
And they can not prove it was. There is a difference between respecting peoples right to believe whatever they want, and agreeing with them. Just because I respect their right to believe whatever they wish, along with somebody's right to believe that we evolved from the same creature as monkeys did, doesn't mean I have to agree with them.
There are dozens of very good, very well thought out, religions. Many have scriptures that they claim are inspired by a god. Each are different (though with some similarities). All of them can not be right, and none of them can prove their version is better then any other. So, until they do, it is just a book. Maybe a good book, with many good lessons, but just a book. Written by humans, edited by humans, and created by humans (until proof otherwise). Inspired by human minds.
That is not to say somebody named Jesus did not exsist, but for all the evidence he may have just been delusional and chrismatic. A Jim Jones of his time if you will. Using scripture to prove scripture is right is a bit .. odd.
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted September 02, 2009 02:38 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 02:39, 02 Sep 2009.
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Quote:
That is not to say somebody named Jesus did not exsist, but for all the evidence he may have just been delusional and chrismatic. A Jim Jones of his time if you will. Using scripture to prove scripture is right is a bit .. odd.
Certainly there were a number of prophecies that he fulfilled that were prophetic of the Christ and over 500 witnesses saw him at one time after his resurrection so I say there is a good bit of proof that he was not delusional.
And speaking from personal experience, I have received the Spirit of God so I have all the proof I need to know he lives.  Yes, I know YOU have no proof that I received the Spirit. I said I have enough proof for me.
Many millions of others have received his Spirit too.
When talking about waht the Bible teaches or Christian theology it is appropriate to quote the Bible. Some on the board have the odd idea that their words define Christianity (when they are not even Christians) instead of the New Testament defining Christianity.
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Revelation
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted September 02, 2009 07:31 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 07:39, 02 Sep 2009.
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Mayhap somebody needs to read the post again. Did I say "You shouldn't use scripture at all in a debate about religion." or "Using scripture to prove scripture is right is a bit .. odd"
Let me clarify. I pull out a phonebook that is say .. 5 years old. I pick a number and dial it, and the person is still at that address with that same number. Then I say "That proves this phonebook is the ultimate authority on who lives in this town." Now if somebody looked at me funny and thought I was mistaken, I couldn't very well blame him. Lets say I even get lucky and every name I pick (for say the first 1000 names) the person is still there, and has the same number. Despite this, people would still doubt that a phonebook that is 5 years old is correct.
So using a book, regardless of how accurate somebody make think it is, to prove that that same book is the ultimate authority on anything is a bit...odd.
((I used a 'legitimate' example instead of say Harry Potter, but the same holds true for such.)) Add to the fact that quoting scripture doesn't actually tell us what a person thinks, but only what they have been told/what the author of the book thinks/etc. Which is what I termed 'regurgitating'. Mind you, I don't mind scripture, but sometimes you want to know what the person themselves thinks. So here is the thing. If you just want to quote scripture, you absolutely have that right, but then there is nothing to discuss. Which means I will withdrawl from the discussion giving you the last word. However, if you want to discuss and perhaps even philosophize, let me know. Then we will engage each other as human beings, and perhaps we both might learn a thing or 3.
Now as to Jesus. Again, I respect the man (and yes I personally believe he was a MAN, not a god, but that is again beside the point). There are many televangilist who 'healed' people in front of Millions. Are they then the prophets of god? What proof do we have that he was not just some con man? Heck, I have healed with a touch (don't ask me to explain HOW, cause I have no clue)...does that make me the Son of God? People can take sugar pills and be totally cured if they believe in the pill strong enough...
I will not debate about Jesus though, because I DO believe he was a very good person. That he did heal, and had a good message. I respect the man, so I respectfully ask that this part of the discussion be set aside.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 02, 2009 09:25 AM |
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Quote:
Certainly there were a number of prophecies that he fulfilled that were prophetic of the Christ and over 500 witnesses saw him at one time after his resurrection so I say there is a good bit of proof that he was not delusional.
First of all, I do NOT want to make fun out of your statement, just to make that clear!
But, how many people in America still see Elvis running around?
How many poeple all over the world are sure David Copperfield IS a magician? You do not always have to believe what you see. So this alone can't be enough to be ultimate evidence.
Quote:
And speaking from personal experience, I have received the Spirit of God so I have all the proof I need to know he lives. Yes, I know YOU have no proof that I received the Spirit. I said I have enough proof for me.
That's completely fine. Especially if you accept it to be a proof for YOU, and not for everybody else.
Quote:
Many millions of others have received his Spirit too.
Also fine...but of course there are many millions on the other side who have NOT recieved it...but I'm sure you're aware of that.
Quote:
When talking about waht the Bible teaches or Christian theology it is appropriate to quote the Bible. Some on the board have the odd idea that their words define Christianity (when they are not even Christians) instead of the New Testament defining Christianity.
This is what sometimes brings up problems, especially if it is not defined as good as youi did now. The bible teaches christianity, that's without a doubt acceptable. What the bible does NOT is teaching "the ultimate way of living", or "the ultimate truth". It teaches christians how they should live and behave, what is good and what is not. But ONLY for christians, and christians are NO upper community here on earth. (Neither is ANY other religion of course!).
If this would be accepted by all groups, we wouldn't have that much quarrel anything near to the amount we have nowadays.
Just my 2 personal cents though...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 02, 2009 09:45 AM |
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Quote:
Some on the board have the odd idea that their words define Christianity (when they are not even Christians) instead of the New Testament defining Christianity.
Christianity doesn't follow the Bible, the Bible follows Christianity. A person who has never even heard of the Bible can be a Christian. And for that matter, a person who has never even heard of Christ can be a Christian.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted September 03, 2009 09:30 AM |
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there is a differnce between new testamony and old. bible is supposingly the old in english lenguage i presume?
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types in obscure english
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