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tigris
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Supreme Noobolator
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posted November 16, 2009 10:15 PM |
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Quote:
Well.
Let me repeat the fact that soldiering isn't about killing people. It's about obeying orders..... Instrumentalization of people.
Which is what this is all about......OBEYING.
Have you done any day in the army?
That might have been the paradigm a while ago, but as it is now soldiers are actually being encouraged to THINK before blindly following orders, soldiers can argue with an order and even refuse to execute it, if the order is illegal or if it breaks any international agreements like prisoner or human rights.
So, im sorry to argue with you..but that is NOT what the army is about.
Why does a country have an army?
To enforce peace and ensure the well-being of the people living in that country, to maintain the integrity of the frontiers and to defend that country from the aggressions from within or from outside.
It is why in most civilised countries, the poles show the army is the institution in which people have the most trust..ahead of police, justice system or church.
People serving in the army are trained in order to be able to achieve these tasks that the army is charged with...they are not a mass of "instruments" at the discretion of a politician, a government or a coalition...they are human being such as yourselves, fathers, mothers, husbands, wives, sons..they are normal people like anyone else, people with a brain and with a will..yet they are people who,if needed, fight for their country and an ideal they belive in.
Again..i refuse to belive these brainwashing and "turning into machines" theories are really something people still consider possible in the XXIst century (speaking about a regular army, not guerilla or extremist factions).
Out
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JollyJoker
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posted November 16, 2009 10:45 PM |
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Quote:
as it is now soldiers are actually being encouraged to THINK before blindly following orders, soldiers can argue with an order and even refuse to execute it, if the order is illegal or if it breaks any international agreements like prisoner or human rights.
Is this a subtle try in irony? I suspect, it's not.
... and tomorrow they will elect their Captains. Christ.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted November 16, 2009 11:18 PM |
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Edited by tigris at 23:19, 16 Nov 2009.
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I 'm not sure how amused of your "subtle" (failed) attempt of an irony I am...I've just quoted what the army regulations have been saying for a good few years now.
Anyways, everyone is free to debate and create opinions about subjects they know very little of or nothing at all..so if it's easier to you to stick to your brainwash& instrumentalization theory then go ahead and do so..
I'm just saying that I personally can't imagine this being a realistic thing nowdays..not at a regular army scale anyways..fair enough, small elite units or para-military organisations may still rely on this..but your average soldier is often as open minded as any of us and he has a liberty to express his opinions and as said..even refuse to execute an order if it is against the laws and rules he swore to abide.
My 2 cents and the end of it as i see it..we are going off-topic anyways
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The_Gootch
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Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted November 16, 2009 11:18 PM |
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?!!?
In a way the US does train child soldiers. I mean, with parental consent a 17 year old can enlist.
As far as our little marines, it's less than a guns for tots program than it is an introduction to our brand of military indoctrination. Sounds cooler than boy scouts to me. Who wouldn't want to put their hands on an H & K MP5 over a chump single shot bolt action rifle?
I'd probably send my son to be a part of them and then make sure the dipsnow fundamentalists don't convince him that we the US are ordained by god to bring the rest of the world the shining light of democracy or that we have a biblical obligation to help Israel steal Palestinian lands.
And why are the adults giving this child so much attention? Good job on the racy thread title kid. You sound like you have a future working for FOX headline news.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 17, 2009 05:33 AM |
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Imagine if, in another thread on another day, this picture was posted, but the only difference was that the people were not American caucasians, but people of Middle Eastern descent.
I think the conversation would be quite different.
Quote:
You cannot compare marine training to what these kids do..from my point of view this is more similar to what Scouts do..and i dont see anyone hating on them.
IMO teaching a young child how to read a map, make a fire,find his way using a compass or only the sun/stars, teaching him how basic survival techniques, and also some notions about self defense seems to be a better influence than to show him how to roll his first joint.
Young Marines!
Day 1: Map reading
Day 2: Kayaking
Day 3: Self Defence
Day 4: Heavy Weaponry & Automatic Rifle use
Day 5: Cooking
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John says to live above hell.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted November 17, 2009 12:58 PM |
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Its a fine line between having a plastic replica M40 that kids learn to assemble and race against each other to see who manages to put all the pieces together AND having a child given a real AK-47 and being asked to point it at another human being and pull the trigger. We are all victims of misconceptions so yes you would expect an american child to be thought these things for the sake of general knowledge and as something educational whereas many people would expect a young muslim to be trained the same things with the sole purpose of exterminating US soldiers..I think this is greatly exagerated.
I dont know about America, but in countries all over Europe, kids have the option to join a Sports Shooting club, or a Cross Country skiing club and there are even biathlon competitions for Juniors...where they fire compressed air rifles..yes they are marksmen, but they are not killers.
So yes, these kids learn the characteristics of some weaponry, learn how to aim and fire them...so what? Does that make them killers?
My opinion stays that these camps are meant to be educational and fun and i'm sure with all the paranoia in US about war and all, if something bad happens there,all the child protection agencies and parents would have already expressed their fears and would have been shut down long time ago.
Media has the tendency to emphasize things and turn them into bombastic headlines, but i suspect in fact whats going on there is very much similar to what is going on in a Scouts training camp.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 17, 2009 01:39 PM |
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Since when did loading an automatic rifle become general knowledge?
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Azagal
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posted November 17, 2009 02:29 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 14:35, 17 Nov 2009.
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Quote:
whereas many people would expect a young muslim to be trained the same things with the sole purpose of exterminating US soldiers..I think this is greatly exagerated.
It's not only a huge exaggeration it's also pretty stereotypeing wouldn't you say?
Quote:
yes they are marksmen, but they are not killers
Well yeah but they pursue marksmenship and shooting as a sport. These kids seem to be pursue this stuff for other purposes (as in becoming a competent soldier). So while they're not killers in the sense that they go arround shouting "JIHAD!! DIE INFIDEL!!! bla etc." they will most likely end up killing people. It doesn't make them killers but they're thought the basics to eventually become competent officialy recognized tools for killing. Not a too big difference if you ask me.
I'm no fan of the idea that you teach children stuff like that. They have no idea what they're doing I mean we're talking about real weapons. They'll just absorb whatever you tell them without giving it any thought, what else could they possibly do they're too young to understand the implications. What seems to be going on there is no different from the indoctrination you hinted at in the middle east the only difference is the ideology. This is by no means comparable to boy scouts if you ask me since boy scouts don't wear military uniforms and their purpose is entirely different.
I think TA has some good points especially what he said about the picture.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted November 17, 2009 08:05 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:05, 17 Nov 2009.
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@TA: damn right about it, I hope Elodin has the balls to reply to what you just said about the pic 
EDIT: anyone up for the time-consuming job to make them look like muslims?
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Celfious
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From earth
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posted November 17, 2009 08:26 PM |
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anyone who can know even just one of a persons origin, place of residence, gender, religion, skin color, etc, etc and can pass judgment about them without speaking to them or knowing anything about them beyond the label
***** go to hell you racist scum
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Celfious
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From earth
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posted November 17, 2009 08:28 PM |
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i am an american, xerox so when you talk trash about an entirety of some group includnig me you even talk **** about the ones who are against their own political construct and how they run things
It is my opinion -could be wrong- that you listen to griping people all the time. When I heard racist people when I was at the age of 13, I did not agree.
maybe I was not a stupid kid
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Celfious
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posted November 17, 2009 08:31 PM |
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Edited by Celfious at 20:50, 17 Nov 2009.
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You think when you say things about a country and the people there, do you think that i vote? You think if I did vote it would make a difference?
I cant change anything and anyone who tries, their voice fades into just another activist speech heard by minimal amounts of people
I dont care what you say or said in this thread (you speak on whose country is better quite often if in this thread or not) but you talk smack about the people and not the ones who control us,
You talk all you want about the top .01% of the people with money power influence and connections and any decisions maker. But i want to smack the brains out of people in my own neighborhood who think they are better or more right because what they look like, where they are, and where they are from.
Do not say black people or some country people are worse than me simply because I am white american when i am drunk because I have a justified temper when i am drunk
you go ahead around on the internet talking about what people are right and who are bad based on where they live or where they are born but you might someday realize how stupid you are for judging 100s of millions even billions of people because buisnessmen and politicians we the massive majority have zero control over.
Why dont you try to start a revolution, xerox, oh wait, your "people" are perfect, right? Anyone who thinks like you, you Bigots are the scum. They are in all countries, racist scum bags
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blizzardboy
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posted November 17, 2009 08:40 PM |
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Celfious
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From earth
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posted November 17, 2009 08:44 PM |
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sorry i hibernate again
bye lol
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What are you up to
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Binabik
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posted November 17, 2009 09:54 PM |
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Quote:
So while they're not killers in the sense that they go arround shouting "JIHAD!! DIE INFIDEL!!! bla etc." they will most likely end up killing people.
*Shakes head once again*
You are totally fabricating stuff that has no bearing on reality. The majority of those kids do NOT go in the military, EVER. And of the ones that do, only a small percentage of them would ever end up in a combat zone.
With their first aid, CPR and other medical training they are probably more likely to save someone's life than to kill someone.
Yea, it's likely that the Marines and other branches of the military recruit kids from the program (assuming the kid is still in the program when they get old enough to join). But the military also recruits from High Schools, Colleges, sports programs, Scouts, and lots of other organizations.
As far as weapons training, the Boy Scouts do the same thing. There's nothing wrong with learning the proper care, safety and use of guns. I didn't learn anything about guns in the scouts, but I learned the care and safety at my elementary school when I was about 11 years old. (not a school program, that's just where the class was) I never really got much into guns, and never had any desire to hunt, but it's still a good thing to know.
I'd MUCH rather see a 11-12 year old kid who has been trained in the proper care and safety of guns, out on the range firing guns under supervision, than some 16-17 year old out driving a car. That 16-17 year old kid driving a car is a much more dangerous killing machine than the kid out on the range.
To be honest, no I don't particularly like the military aspects of this program, but I think the overall affect of the program can be positive for a lot of kids.
I strongly believe in just letting kids be kids. Like the scouts, this program is run by volunteers, largely parents of the kids. Also like the scouts, some of them can be fanatical and go too far. But I see the same thing in parents who push their kids in sports or music, or other achievements. No matter what the activity, there's always a line that some parents cross and push too hard. But as long as the kids enjoy it and are allowed to be kids, then good. They're probably far better off in that program than sitting on their butts playing video games for hours and dieing from a heart attack at the age of 35 because of obesity and lack of exercise.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 17, 2009 10:51 PM |
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This thread is becoming a disgrace. And I don't think it's Xerox' fault.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 18, 2009 12:38 AM |
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All I'm saying is that I'm glad I didn't have to go through that...
But then I wouldn't have wanted to go through Boy Scouts or anything like that either.
Oh and imagine that kids parents lol.
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John says to live above hell.
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Celfious
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posted November 18, 2009 02:58 AM |
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I really dont care about the topic
what is obvious to me is this kid talks about the US almost as much as he speaks of how superior his country is! I hate even people in my apartment complex, neighborhood and country that think they are superior because of race color creed whatever
Xerox you sure pay a lot of attention to whose country is right and wrong.
i wish I could block all your idiolations. I dont care your age, bigot mentality is stupid and its flat out in the open everytime you have something to say about countries.
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Celfious
Promising
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From earth
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posted November 18, 2009 03:04 AM |
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I would rather be some kid in almost any circumstance than webernet griping young teen always complaining, and talking about hitler and labeling entire groups as mindless.
Why dont you get your griping out with people you hear it from.
Go confirm each others feelings that everyone outside of your mentality are inferior.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted November 18, 2009 09:11 AM |
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Quote:
@TA: damn right about it, I hope Elodin has the balls to reply to what you just said about the pic
EDIT: anyone up for the time-consuming job to make them look like muslims?
I don't shy away from any topic.
I would have no problem with classes of all Arabs learning the same things. As long as they were not also being taught jhad, suicdie bombing, hatred for American, hatred for all religions but Islam, ect.
In America everyon has the right to keep and bear [carry] arms. It is good for children to learn how to handle a gun. I certainly taught my children how to shoot and handle a weapon safely.
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