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Vlaad
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posted November 20, 2009 05:22 AM |
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More Swedish propaganda! *shakes head*Quote:
But I'll put it this way, and quite seriously. (at the risk of changing the subject to another issue where nobody will agree) I think violence in video games and movies is more likely to cause kids to grow up to use violence than the Young Marine program.
...not.  Quote:
edit: and could someone shrink all those pictures already?
Get yourself a bigger monitor. 
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 20, 2009 06:32 AM |
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Quote:
I guess we live in different realities then.
Oh, I already knew that. Not necessarily a bad thing though!
Oh and violence in video games? What are you, a grandma sitting on her porch ranting at those "damn kids from next door" Sounds like something said by someone calling up a talkback radio station "I'm worried my son gon' shoot somebody after playing Halo 2!"
More likely I'm going to be a professional footballer after playing FIFA10
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The_Gootch
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posted November 20, 2009 07:07 AM |
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You want some unasked for advice then Xerox? Next time you see a provocative picture why not post it without trying to tell us what to think and pay closer attention to everyone's reaction?
To those of you who come from cultures where guns are outlawed, the picture can seem a sad commentary on how American children are taught to embrace the dangerous culture of guns, get a wrong sense of how they're best used, grow up, and lead us into wars where we clearly have a fundamental lack of understanding of the profound devastation we cause.
Give us a break. Many of you come from cultures that are at least as old as the 700 years that gunpowder has been viably used in war. The U.S. is only in its 300th year--the early part mind you-- and we're still learning.
And don't think you can make us come to a decision any quicker. We don't care about your vast experiences with guns and war. If Europe was such a great place to live, then why did some of your great great great, um grandparents catch the next steam ship to the free world?
As an aside, I have to express my surprise and dismay with some of the Australian contingent. You're supposed to have come from a better, meaner stock, than the ones left behind in the mother country. At least act the part.
Edit: For the record, I don't find anything wrong with the picture. By all means, use the Marine Corps' methodology for teaching firearms safety to children. Firearms, for better or for worse, are part of the American identity.
As has been pointed out, I would probably have a different opinion if the people in the picture looked different than me, if their uniforms were unrecognizable, their colors weren't familiar, and/or the language on their badges was foreign. Different opinions for different tones, colors, textures, degree of headgear, whether or not my country has warred with theirs recently, etc.
Edit*2: Also for the record, as far as I can tell, those rifles are real.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 20, 2009 07:16 AM |
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You know what really makes me wonder when I read all this bukll about how great it is to teach children responsible use of firearms which is so much better than they finding out for themselves - wouldn't that be true for everything else as well then? Sex. most notably? Drugs (at least the stuff that is allowed). Driving. You name it.
Now try as I might, I don't find schools where your parents can send you as an 8-year-old, where you learn everything about sex apart from the normal classes - all strictly responsibly, of course.
Strange somehow. I can imagine that those kids and youths would have fun as well, and somehow it escapes me why learning all about firearms and soldiering is such a good thing while learning about sex and love isn't.
In Switzerland, by the way, everyone is required to have a gun in the closet in case an enemy invades. It's an army thing.
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blizzardboy
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posted November 20, 2009 07:42 AM |
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Quote:
You know what really makes me wonder when I read all this bukll about how great it is to teach children responsible use of firearms which is so much better than they finding out for themselves - wouldn't that be true for everything else as well then? Sex. most notably? Drugs (at least the stuff that is allowed). Driving. You name it.
Now try as I might, I don't find schools where your parents can send you as an 8-year-old, where you learn everything about sex apart from the normal classes - all strictly responsibly, of course.
Strange somehow. I can imagine that those kids and youths would have fun as well, and somehow it escapes me why learning all about firearms and soldiering is such a good thing while learning about sex and love isn't.
Okay? So learn about other stuff too. I don't care. For the sex part, waiting until puberty might be a good thing or else they may find it awkward. I had sex education when I was 12; that's not so old. Granted I was already fascinated with Ariel's seashell-covered boobs when I was 6, but I was a young bloomer.
For the drugs part, I'm assuming you mean avoiding them. Guns are neutral devices that can be beneficial/enjoyable or destructive. Street drugs are always bad, regardless if they're legal or illegal.
I don't say this with certainty, but without doing any research, I can almost guarantee there are programs outside of school out there for one to learn the stuff you mentioned.
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In Switzerland, by the way, everyone is required to have a gun in the closet in case an enemy invades. It's an army thing.
Yeah I know. The 2nd amendment in the U.S. technically serves the same function (though it isn't mandated), even though anymore it's mostly about hunting and preventing robberies. It really doesn't change anything though. The point is that the Swiss government is entrusting every household in their country with a gun, and that trust hasn't let them down. If you take away large social barriers and disparity, guns not only aren't a problem, but they are valuable.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 20, 2009 08:27 AM |
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Okay? So learn about other stuff too. I don't care. For the sex part, waiting until puberty might be a good thing or else they may find it awkward. I had sex education when I was 12; that's not so old. Granted I was already fascinated with Ariel's seashell-covered boobs when I was 6, but I was a young bloomer.
For the drugs part, I'm assuming you mean avoiding them. Guns are neutral devices that can be beneficial/enjoyable or destructive. Street drugs are always bad, regardless if they're legal or illegal.
For the drugs part I mean the allowed ones. You know RESPONSIBLE use. Shouldn't you learn finding out the points you should stop, not suffering sickness the same day or hangover the next?
For the sex part - why wait until you can reasonably understand everything? I don't think those kids before puberty have much of an idea about what guns can do WITH THEM, and on the other hand why fumble only with tools to maim and kill? Why not fumble with tools for pleasure?
I mean, isn't it strange that it doesn't seem akward in the least to let children play with instruments that can amputate limbs and tear a human apart, causing an infinity of pain and death, while it seems to be awkward in the extreme to do the same thing with tools designed to spend pleasure - not to mention the real things who may spend life?
And for the bold part... just nah. The best real guns can do is avoid serious pain, grief and damage - and that's only when they are not used. Enjoyable? A 7,62 cal autorifle? Sure. Like a cluster of grenades, right? They are so much better than just a couple of firecrackers on Guy Fawkes or something. I mean, blasting the crap out of some old barn, isn't that the dream of every real kid. I mean, provided they've watched some good TV shows.
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blizzardboy
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posted November 20, 2009 08:52 AM |
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Quote:
For the drugs part I mean the allowed ones. You know RESPONSIBLE use. Shouldn't you learn finding out the points you should stop, not suffering sickness the same day or hangover the next?
Learning to avoid the nastier parts of habits that are unwise/barbaric in the first place seems kind of silly to me, but I wouldn't be against such programs if certain parents insisted on it. Also, a lot of that is dependent on age limits in X location.
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For the sex part - why wait until you can reasonably understand everything? I don't think those kids before puberty have much of an idea about what guns can do WITH THEM, and on the other hand why fumble only with tools to maim and kill? Why not fumble with tools for pleasure?
The difference is that understanding the dangers of guns is intellectual, and I'm pretty sure even a 6-year-old can properly understand that guns = dangerous and potentially gruesome. My 2-year-old niece understood that fire is hot and shouldn't be touched. What's so complicated?
Sex on the other hand is emotional, so you can't properly talk about it until you experience its drive personally. You don't need to teach a kid how to have sex. I'm pretty sure they can figure it out on their own. The general purpose of the classes are to talk about it, just to get it out in the open and talk to them about responsible practices.
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I mean, isn't it strange that it doesn't seem akward in the least to let children play with instruments that can amputate limbs and tear a human apart, causing an infinity of pain and death, while it seems to be awkward in the extreme to do the same thing with tools designed to spend pleasure - not to mention the real things who may spend life?
And for the bold part... just nah. The best real guns can do is avoid serious pain, grief and damage - and that's only when they are not used. Enjoyable? A 7,62 cal autorifle? Sure. Like a cluster of grenades, right? They are so much better than just a couple of firecrackers on Guy Fawkes or something. I mean, blasting the crap out of some old barn, isn't that the dream of every real kid. I mean, provided they've watched some good TV shows.
I talk about guns being beneficial/enjoyable and you think of vandalizing??? That's not quite what I had in mind. That's... umm... illegal/retarded. Besides, minors can't walk around with guns except under supervision, which I agree with.
I was thinking more of:
-personal and community security (like you said, ideally just using it to make a potential robber/rapist stand down)
-recreational marksmanship
-hunting
Also, though it seems outdated anymore, it's still good in theory:
-preventing tyrannical rule from taking over
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mvassilev
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posted November 20, 2009 09:03 AM |
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Now try as I might, I don't find schools where your parents can send you as an 8-year-old, where you learn everything about sex apart from the normal classes - all strictly responsibly, of course.
Because schools already teach about this (not very well, I may add - but they do teach about it). But good luck trying to find a school that teaches about guns and respect.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 20, 2009 09:17 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
For the drugs part I mean the allowed ones. You know RESPONSIBLE use. Shouldn't you learn finding out the points you should stop, not suffering sickness the same day or hangover the next?
Learning to avoid the nastier parts of habits that are unwise/barbaric in the first place seems kind of silly to me, but I wouldn't be against such programs if certain parents insisted on it. Also, a lot of that is dependent on age limits in X location.
Don't you see that you are in ccontradiction to yourself? There is an age limits for weapons as well - so why should an age limit in X location matter when it's taught in school? And if drinking is barbaric - how would you call shooting? Recreational?
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For the sex part - why wait until you can reasonably understand everything? I don't think those kids before puberty have much of an idea about what guns can do WITH THEM, and on the other hand why fumble only with tools to maim and kill? Why not fumble with tools for pleasure?
The difference is that understanding the dangers of guns is intellectual, and I'm pretty sure even a 6-year-old can properly understand that guns = dangerous and potentially gruesome. My 2-year-old niece understood that fire is hot and shouldn't be touched. What's so complicated?
Sex on the other hand is emotional, so you can't properly talk about it until you experience its drive personally. You don't need to teach a kid how to have sex. I'm pretty sure they can figure it out on their own. The general purpose of the classes are to talk about it, just to get it out in the open and talk to them about responsible practices.
And still you go in circles - I'm sure the kids can figure weapons out on their own as well, and if you speak of the dangers, IF it's so easy then why make so much of a fuss about it and have a marine school? And sex has it's dangers as well. So you are contradicting yourself yet again. Why not doing the same with weapons? talk about them once and that's it? Conversely, if there IS a young marine school why not have a sex school as well.
There simply IS no point for this.
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I mean, isn't it strange that it doesn't seem akward in the least to let children play with instruments that can amputate limbs and tear a human apart, causing an infinity of pain and death, while it seems to be awkward in the extreme to do the same thing with tools designed to spend pleasure - not to mention the real things who may spend life?
And for the bold part... just nah. The best real guns can do is avoid serious pain, grief and damage - and that's only when they are not used. Enjoyable? A 7,62 cal autorifle? Sure. Like a cluster of grenades, right? They are so much better than just a couple of firecrackers on Guy Fawkes or something. I mean, blasting the crap out of some old barn, isn't that the dream of every real kid. I mean, provided they've watched some good TV shows.
I talk about guns being beneficial/enjoyable and you think of vandalizing??? That's not quite what I had in mind. That's... umm... illegal/retarded. Besides, minors can't walk around with guns except under supervision, which I agree with.
I was thinking more of:
-personal and community security (like you said, ideally just using it to make a potential robber/rapist stand down)
-recreational marksmanship
-hunting
Also, though it seems outdated anymore, it's still good in theory:
-preventing tyrannical rule from taking over
Yes, that's what I said: it's obviously so much more enjoyable to have fun with an assault rifle than with sex, and you will excuse me if that's not immediately obvious for an intellectual and emotional cripple like me who simply lacks the capacity to imagine that it's so much healthier for young kids (well, I suppose it's mostly/exclusively boys) to concentrate on the fun of toying around with a dependable, nicely oiled, well-smelling, steely combat auto than with what I cannot even name properly because it's considered not good for children and youths.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 20, 2009 09:19 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Now try as I might, I don't find schools where your parents can send you as an 8-year-old, where you learn everything about sex apart from the normal classes - all strictly responsibly, of course.
Because schools already teach about this (not very well, I may add - but they do teach about it). But good luck trying to find a school that teaches about guns and respect.
8 or 10 years? In the US, in school, you learn 8 or 10 years everything about sex? Wow! Great!
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mvassilev
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posted November 20, 2009 09:29 AM |
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No, actually it's just a one-day class in 6th grade... (At least, that's what it was for me. And it was abstinence-only, so rather lacking. I've heard other schools are better about this.)
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Binabik
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posted November 20, 2009 09:38 AM |
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Quote:
And if drinking is barbaric - how would you call shooting? Recreational?
Yes, exactly, it's recreational. I know a lot of people don't understand that, and that's much of the problem with these discussions. People have this weird stigma about guns. They think of a gun and the only thing they think is OMG A GUN!!!! And all they picture is violence.
Who remembers Daddy and the picture he used to post in the photo thread? He'd post pictures of him out doing archery. I sure don't remember anyone going OMG A BOW AND ARROW!!!! he's going to kill someone!!!!
Whether it's a gun or a bow or throwing rocks at the log floating down the river, it's all the same thing. Aiming at a target and trying to hit it is so amazingly natural. Try taking a kid to the river where there are a bunch of rocks laying around and see what he does. He's going to start throwing those rocks at something. I know people don't see it as the same thing, but it is.
I was a professional carpenter for many years. And as far as safety, I'd rather see a 10-year-old kid shooting a gun than using a power saw, it's a heck of a lot safer. But whether it's a gun, or a power saw, or sex, or a car, or anything else that's potentially dangerous, introduction to safety and the proper use is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. And yes, out of all those things listed, I'd consider a gun to be the best one to introduce at the earliest age. But that also depends on the demographic. A farm boy would probably learn the safe use of guns at a VERY young age.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 20, 2009 09:47 AM |
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Why do you compare it then? They could made weapons training a one-day-class as well.
But that wasn't my point. My point was, if the build a whole school around this, weapons training, faith (that's part of it as well), scouting, hunting, camouflaged fatigues, drilling and so on, and if that is not considered wrong with the argument that it's good if children learned responsible use of the stuff early on, even though the stuff is forbidden for children - then why, oh, why isn't that same argument true for everything else forbidden for children as well?
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blizzardboy
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posted November 20, 2009 10:05 AM |
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Quote:
Don't you see that you are in ccontradiction to yourself? There is an age limits for weapons as well - so why should an age limit in X location matter when it's taught in school? And if drinking is barbaric - how would you call shooting? Recreational?
There is no such thing as drinking under supervision. It has the same effects on your body regardless if you're with a responsible adult or not. You can use a gun under supervision at much younger ages.
Barbaric was probably too harsh (I admit I wanted to ruffle your feathers). But other than mild drinking, it is biologically always a bad thing, so I would personally consider it unwise. Recreational marksmanship is not always a bad thing; it is almost always just clean fun.
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And still you go in circles - I'm sure the kids can figure weapons out on their own as well
No. Sex is largely instinctive. You usually don't blast somebodies eye out when having sex, unless the male has really really bad aim. Gun use is an acquired skill. Very different.
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And if you speak of the dangers, IF it's so easy then why make so much of a fuss about it and have a marine school? And sex has it's dangers as well. So you are contradicting yourself yet again. Why not doing the same with weapons? talk about them once and that's it?
I'm not a scholar on this Soldier Program, but I'm pretty sure they don't spend several years straight just learning how to rock at using an assault rifle. It's one thing.
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Conversely, if there IS a young marine school why not have a sex school as well.
There simply IS no point for this.
If there is a marine school, why not have nipple-twisting school as well? Or a cooking school? Or a ballad school? Or a hot-dog eating school?
I don't know Joker. They have programs for almost everything, and even if they don't, then it would probably be legal either way and there simply isn't much interest.
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Yes, that's what I said: it's obviously so much more enjoyable to have fun with an assault rifle than with sex, and you will excuse me if that's not immediately obvious for an intellectual and emotional cripple like me who simply lacks the capacity to imagine that it's so much healthier for young kids (well, I suppose it's mostly/exclusively boys) to concentrate on the fun of toying around with a dependable, nicely oiled, well-smelling, steely combat auto than with what I cannot even name properly because it's considered not good for children and youths.
Dramatization much?
There are 24 hours in a day. Presumably, you don't spend all of them bouncing on the bed, unless I underestimated you. There is such a thing as having a variety of interests, and hunting/marksmanship is one of thousands of things that can be fun. I have little interest with guns, but that's irrelevant to my views. I'm not compelled to shape the world in my image. And besides their potential fun, the security purposes are much more practical.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JollyJoker
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posted November 20, 2009 10:25 AM |
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Blizzard, as far as I know the sex and love aspects in life are a lot more practical than operating a gun.
You know, as the young marines school isn't 24/7 on assault rifle practise wouldn't you allow that for a sex-oriented school as well? And don't you think that there is a whole lot more to sex than just aiming right - same as with weapons?
So I simply miss a point that tells me, if it is good if kids learn responsible use of weapons - within a young marines school -, why can you have the same thing where you simply switch the aspects of soldiering and weaponry with the aspects of love and sex? Why is one ok, but not the other? There is obviously quite a lot to learn in that respect - compare the statistics about assaults with weapons and sexual assault, for example.
But you make the typical points: you find excuses for the weapon stuff, search for practical uses and so on, play solicitor for that - but you simply just don't even start for the other side, but instead look for reasons not to. I call that biassed. You just fall into the violence-trap, the same trap, that allows display of violence, but not of sex.
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baklava
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posted November 20, 2009 10:34 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 10:37, 20 Nov 2009.
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Firearms, for better or for worse, are part of the American identity.
"I think it would be a good idea."
Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.
Seeing where I live, though, I might not quite be the one to talk.
But it's a matter of principle. ^^
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Binabik
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posted November 20, 2009 10:41 AM |
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*shakes head*
When people hear about guns the only thing they can think of is violence. Sad.
And @JJ,
I fail to see why you're harping on it, but what makes you think they DON'T teach anything about safe and responsible sex at the Marine thing? They claim to teach responsibility. So even if they don't teach about sex specifically, responsibility is an attitude more than anything else, it can be applied to anything.
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baklava
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posted November 20, 2009 10:44 AM |
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Well I've spent my childhood being sheltered through too many wars for guns to remind me of Disneyland.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Binabik
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posted November 20, 2009 10:50 AM |
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Yes, I was aware of who made the post and why you might justifiably see things differently. It's understandable that someone who has seen the violent side of guns not see them as something used to go out on a sunny day and plink at plastic bottles. From my point of view, I see them as something recreational.
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Binabik
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posted November 20, 2009 10:53 AM |
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Oh, and for the record....
Speaking of personal experience. Sure guns have a dark side. But for me, and for those I've loved, alcohol has a far darker side and can be far more destructive.
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