|
|
william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
|
posted November 26, 2009 02:52 PM |
|
|
|
This whole thing about it not being stealing when everyone I know agrees with me that it is just annoys me. It's a select few I've only ever really met on HC that say otherwise and it's annoying. lol
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 02:53 PM |
|
|
I wonder how many of the guys here claiming they "share" actually gain their life from music, writing, painting, from art in general. If not, then it is just a polemical exercise for them. If I take a space ship, I can tell you the sky is not blue. From your igloo you see it blue and keep arguing. Pointless.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 03:11 PM |
|
|
Oh stop whining, who's pirating classical music anyway.
@Will
That's the beauty of the internet... You get to talk to people outside your village 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 03:18 PM |
|
|
Doom,
That was the only point I tried to make. Not that you shouldn't do it in your position or that you're ruining the whole market. My point was that you're egoistical/ungrateful/whatever and that downloading things is never fully ok. When people only do it when they have ABSOLUTELY no other choice, then yeah I don't see much harm in it. I just wanted to make sure that you understand the moral issues here which (hopefully) would make stop downloading when you'll have other options.
And now let's end the debate on a high note.
I'm out.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 03:44 PM |
|
|
Legally spoken, if you acquire something digitalized LEGALLY (buying or cash-downloading it) - music, movies, games -, you sign a contract that says exactly what you can and cannot do with the stuff just acquired.
Of course you are not forced to buy anything, but IF you do, you sign that contract. Putting stuff like that into the net for downloading is a breach of that contract, simple, easy and clear-cut, and that's why pirates are pirates. They break existing laws.
As with all laws you can discuss their merits, but whatever the merits are, it makes no sense to force-socialize digital arts, of all things.
Which is enough already to conclude that it's plain wrong. You don't damage those who entertain you, do you? They are the weakest link in the chain, and downloading stuff is just a mix of greed amd cowardness, hurting the ability to set priorities (Hmm, what do I really want, what's really worth it? Ah, heck, I download it all, who cares.)
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 03:51 PM |
|
|
Not to mention being big hypocrites. The Death, Doom and all others pro-"sharing", I am looking for a illegal HoMM5 copy (preferable torrent), can you give me a working link HERE please?
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 03:57 PM |
|
|
Sorry for the *random* input, but just a FYI: Eventhough you sign a given contract, you can break it, and it may not necessarily be illegal. This is the case if the contract in itself is illegal, an example of this would be the contract requires of you, not to do something, which is a basic right that have been given and cannot be changed, unless by "common" agreement between the people.
I have seen such contracts, people who're told that they're not allowed to have an opinion about certain stuff, nor share it with others, these people did it anyhow, and won the case in court and eventhough they were fired, the firm had to compensate via payment for the time they were unemployed.
Likewise with these kind of agreements, when I buy a game console, I've seen demos of other games following, but these demos are actually the real games, with a time limit.
When I buy, I sign a paper that says I'm not allowed to tamper with what I've bought, however with the rights in my country, then I can buy it abroad, and still tamper with it, simply because here if you own it, you may do with it as you please (to the limits of not attacking others, etc. of course).
So, me and a couple of friends tamper with it, gets the time limit off, and I've for free got a lot of new games.
Now, to stay at least a bit on topic, the real problem here is not the middle man, the companies who makes the licence, who sells the records and who sets the price, no the real problem here is how to purposefully connect the link between the author, who've something to share, and should be compensated for the time invested, and the rest of the public, who're interested in what the author have to share, but want it for the least effort possible.
Again, I reclaim my suggestion and expected future of compensation through advertising due to extreme popularity, I'd really like if some would reply to this part, I'm very interested in what all of you think, for in the way I see it, it really solves the whole deal.
The Author gets compensated and can actually have a saying in how much, the public gets what they want freely and with great ease, and there's no middle man making money by simply copying and contract signing, without doing anything really. No piracy can exist, but the outcomes are what everyone wants, I believe.
Back in time, the middle man was a blessing, nowadays it's uneeded.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 04:04 PM |
|
|
ADVERTISING is paid by everyone, because the costs are integral part of the product.
You can switch and turn it as much as you like, if something is done with a product that something has to be paid for.
By the way , CDs have become a lot more expensive, did someone realize that?
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 04:13 PM |
|
|
Not sure I follow you, anyway please correct me if you disagree with the following:
Advertising is paid by the company advertising (the more popular a place to advertise, the more they'll pay).
This payment goes partly to the author of a giving product who have added to this popularity of the collected work.
The firms advertising would only do so, because they expect to get to sell more this way than if they didn't advertise, what they advertise for is of course the types of services that is not something you simply copy, this is of course assuming a society where trade is still necessary (to get what you want, or simply just to survive) and not some kind of automatic utopia where trade is not needed and all this debate is meaningless.
So those who buys the products/services from the firms advertising are those who in the long run are payig for the advertising.
I don't see the problem in this, if you're sufficient interested in something, and you can't make it yourself by any easier mean, you'll of course buy it (otherwise you'd not be sufficient interested).
The advertise is simply what makes you interested in the first place.
All in all it makes your life even richer, because let's look at the two scenarios:
Scenario 1:
You paid for the product of the author (some kind of information string), result:
Of your money a little bit have gone to the author, a lot have gone to the unneeded company.
Scenario 2, my expectation:
You freely downloaded the product, maybe in the meantime some advertising got you interested in something which you bought, for simplicity let's assume for the same money as in scenario 1:
Now you got both the product of the author and the service of your interest. Of your money a lot have gone to the author (shared between the collected authors work), and likewise some have gone to the firm who you bought the service from.
In scenario 1, the author does not decide how big a cut he/she would gain, in scenario 2, the author is the one who decides.
In scenario 1, you get 1 product of interest.
In scenario 2, you get 2 things of interest.
Edit: Also, please notice, it's not the cd's themselves that are interesting, their price doesn't really matter, what matters is what's on the cd's, as that can be shared without cd, all cd really does is a way of backup (and a way of trying to enforce copyrights).
There are many smarter ways of backing up, but if you want, anyone is welcome to buy a cd and then burn the data down to it, but in my suggestion, the information strings aren't something you get on cd's, but are freely downloadable.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 04:27 PM |
|
|
Huh? How's that supposed to work?
While you download you see ads? Why you watch them?
And why would ads run? I mean, why wouldn't there be sites to download stuff from without ads like it is now?
And why am I supposed to put up with even more ads? Aren't you realizing that advertisement is the biggest brain-washing device of all times?
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 04:36 PM |
|
|
How it'll exactly work, I don't know, like I don't know how ads on TV exactly works, etc. All in all, with television there have been a great succes with free TV, only available to the advertisments, at least here where I am, meanwhile the TV you've to pay for (actually forced here), is of much lower entertainment value, and when TV tries to be more than entertainment, I've only seeing it failing miserably compared to books and the internet.
That's because from TV, you cannot choice exactly what you want, if you could however, then TV could compete with books and the internet.
Why not going for sites without ads? Because it's the authors who upload their work first, you want it first, you want it easy, if you don't want ads you can just as well get it from someone who uploaded it there, as well as any other program, but you'll have to go through trouble, or let's just say, not as easy, and time saving.
Also the authors would not upload it to sites without ads, unless they try to make themselves interested in the first place.
About the brain washing part, please define brain washing otherwise I'm not certain what we're talking about. As a reply though, no, advertising is in my opinion not brain washing, as you still have the free choice. All that happens is that you're presented with information, if the information interestes you sufficiently, you'll act.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 04:48 PM |
|
|
Quote:
And now let's end the debate on a high note.
"This video is unavailable in your country due to copyright restrictions"
Was this on purpose? xD
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 04:52 PM |
|
|
Let's make it simple. I disagree with basically everything in that last post.
However, the obvious and thread-relevant flaw is that DOWNLOADING stuff isn't watching Television. Downloading is more like Rewinding a video tape. Downloading a song takes how long? Depening on the connection not more than a couple of seconds, time for one aid like a little picture, try sillyburgers or something. If you download something really long, let's say it takes half an hour - who would want to sit half an hour in front of the screen watching ads? No one. NO ONE. There's multi-tasking for these kinds of things, multi-screening, which means no chance.
In case you didn't realize it - advertisement in the web just sucks and tend to really piss people off.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 04:56 PM |
|
Edited by baklava at 17:11, 26 Nov 2009.
|
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 04:59 PM |
|
|
I think you misunderstood, the tv part which was not an analogy to what it is to download, all I claimed was that it has shown that "smart" use of ads can make an informtaion sting free of charge.
You're trying to come with the details of how it'll work, and I believe maybe trying to argument it's impossible, if so, then it's an impossible argument to make, which should be obvious, and I'm not interested in countering every single argument you can make, because that's not the reason I went into the debate in the first stance.
However, I can at least, since you weren't aware of this before, answer what you wrote now.
Whether or not adverts will upset people so much that they'll prefer to get it later and harder and more time spending, I don't now, for me, ads is upsetting because it's time spend on nothing, but if there's no current way to make it faster, people will most likely choose the way with advertisements.
About the time dependency, the same could be said about television, people can just leave when there are advertisements comming up, actually taking a break and get well prepared to when the movie starts again, or whatever they're watching, however still it works.
Finally, about when the advertisements would show, I don't know, I agree that if it gets too complicated, or let's say hard, people would not use this service, but that part I think I've taken care of initially by claiming it'd be the easiest way to get the information strings in the first place.
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 05:07 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
And now let's end the debate on a high note.
"This video is unavailable in your country due to copyright restrictions"
Was this on purpose? xD
HAHAHAHAHA! Not at all! I listened to it before I posted.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 05:30 PM |
|
|
Quote:
About the time dependency, the same could be said about television, people can just leave when there are advertisements comming up, actually taking a break and get well prepared to when the movie starts again, or whatever they're watching, however still it works.
That's wrong on every level.
With TV people sit and watch something they want to watch. When a commercial break comes, people can and do leave the room and do something - toilet, most of the time, and going to get something to eat or drink -, but since they don't know how long the break will last and they don't want to miss part of what they want to see, they will strive to keep the time off the room as small as possible. Which means that they will watch a lot of commercials just because there's nothing else to do and they don't want to miss anything.
That's completely different with the web. You can just press download, then switch to another window to do whatever you want to, without in danger to miss anything - the download will proceed and end, and that's it.
See the difference?
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 06:02 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 18:02, 26 Nov 2009.
|
Quote:
Umm no. Torrenting/pirating is getting something for free that you'd otherwise pay for which is illegal.
What do you mean you'd "otherwise pay"? That's an artificial pricing, artificial "rule", artificial restrictions.
Quote:
Well what the ****ing hell is stealing to you then?
This must be the millionth time I'm repeating it.
You DEPRIVE someone of something he/she HAS.
Is that SO hard to understand?
Quote:
This whole thing about it not being stealing when everyone I know agrees with me that it is just annoys me. It's a select few I've only ever really met on HC that say otherwise and it's annoying. lol
That's why you're often annoying, because you think you're the center of the world. 
@JollyJoker: Quote:
Legally spoken, if you acquire something digitalized LEGALLY (buying or cash-downloading it) - music, movies, games -, you sign a contract that says exactly what you can and cannot do with the stuff just acquired.
Of course you are not forced to buy anything, but IF you do, you sign that contract. Putting stuff like that into the net for downloading is a breach of that contract, simple, easy and clear-cut, and that's why pirates are pirates. They break existing laws.
The Pirate Bay broke no laws in Sweden when it was founded. Of course the US lobbyists bought politicians and changed the laws. I mean, they got the money.
Seriously, stop talking about the law as being a divine right. It is CORRUPTED BEYOND DEFINITION.
Quote:
You don't damage those who entertain you, do you? They are the weakest link in the chain, and downloading stuff is just a mix of greed amd cowardness, hurting the ability to set priorities
Oh right, that's greed alright. When was the last time you had a friend ask you for something, like a game, and you refused to give him, and he called you "very altruistic" (opposite of greed).
Otherwise you must have been really greedy right? I mean if you have that sense of community to share what you have with others (note: most file sharers gain nothing from sharing, but make efforts actually). That's like, the most greedy thing one can do right?
You have no idea what you're talking about. The only one greedy here is you. Maybe you should read some leaked documents online to see how the "industry" operates with profits from intentionally accusing people of porn which they uploaded in the first place.
Yet again you have your very own twisted definition of greed. This is why arguing with you is pointless.
Furthermore what's the problem? Obviously piracy doesn't harm the creator in the NORMAL sense of the word (not potentiality, because if we talk about potentiality, just THINK about ABORTION), because it doesn't if you don't even touch him/her or his/her works (by definition, you acquire that file from someone else!). Why impose your draconian laws on the rest?
Quote:
Not to mention being big hypocrites. The Death, Doom and all others pro-"sharing", I am looking for a illegal HoMM5 copy (preferable torrent), can you give me a working link HERE please?
I don't get it.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 06:07 PM |
|
|
Quote:
What do you mean you'd "otherwise pay"?
Well instead of getting it for free from torrenting, you'd normally pay for it in a store. Simple.
Quote:
This must be the millionth time I'm repeating it.
You DEPRIVE someone of something he/she HAS.
Is that SO hard to understand?
..
Quote:
That's why you're often annoying, because you think you're the center of the world.
And you seem to also be annoying when you reply to something that is not directed at you. Yeah yeah, don't come out with the HCM bull**** either, that's also annoying.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted November 26, 2009 06:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Well instead of getting it for free from torrenting, you'd normally pay for it in a store. Simple.
"normally" is not the right word. There are various ways to acquire information. In the past, it was pretty hard due to illiteracy and "dictatorship". Someone can ask me to pay $1000 for something on ebay, doesn't mean I'm gonna think about it.
Quote:
..
?
Quote:
And you seem to also be annoying when you reply to something that is not directed at you.
You post, it's read by all. What do you expect from a forum?
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
