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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted November 24, 2009 11:02 PM |
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Quote:
irregardless
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 24, 2009 11:05 PM |
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Quote:
Ok, but suppose EVERYONE had this attitude, and reconsider the consequences of each action. Now the music company has put X amount of dollars into production of a piece of music and made no money out of it. The music company essentially LOSES all that money and goes bankrupt. People lose jobs, etc. In this case, there IS a victim. The music company has lost thousands (insert your own number) of potential sales because of collective dishonesty.
Yes, this is the consequence and I'm well aware of it.
But, we can give another example like that.
(1) All of us don't buy the CDs. Company bankrupts.
(2) All of us download the CDs. Company bankrupts.
Why isn't anybody pissed at people NOT buying stuff then? It leads to a very weird display of reality where ONE way of leading to a company bankruptcy is ok, but the other is not.
If the company getting bankrupt is bad and you're not ok with it, you should actively seek companies that are failing and buy their products. Otherwise, you just don't care, which leads to their bankrupcy.
More or less the same thing as illegal downloading. Some things HAVE a bad collective effect, but are not necessarily CRIMES. As you can see, both NOT BUYING has the same end effect as DOWNLOADING. Yet, one is condemned and the other is not.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 24, 2009 11:08 PM |
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Quote:
Let's just say that the cost of production is 100 million dollars, and the cost of duplication is 1 cent. You are arguing that you should only have to play the duplication cost.
No I want a different system, not one based on paying for distribution, which it is currently.
Usually distribution costs are inflated by a percentage so the DISTRIBUTORS can get some profit, which is fine. If a CD production cost is 1 cent, you might need to pay 1.5 cents for instance (50% inflation), which is what you're doing when buying blank CDs (not sure if it's 50% of course, it was arbitrary).
Mathematically the system is laughable. The original amount is a constant, while the amount you sell is variable. You can always find reasonable examples, but you can also find ridiculous ones, such as starting with $1000 and having a ROI of 1 million$ in 3 months, with no effort whatsoever so you could sit on your ass and earn off your previous works -- something which is kinda impossible in a normal job.
How else do you find it plausible that Bill Gates is the richest man on Earth? I mean, surely it isn't demand, Windows needs processors to run on, so for every Windows people had to buy a CPU, at least. Surely his product (Windows) isn't as complex as a CPU (no, really!)...
think about it.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 24, 2009 11:11 PM |
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"Conveniently ignored by all of you" here having the meaning of "I want to justify my unethical behavior on the internet and I'm going to pretend nobody is answering my question because I never wanted it answered to begin with, I just wanted people to agree with me to make me feel better."
I thought you already know me better.
I don't give a SNOW about what the majority thinks about me.
and what I claim means what I claim, and NOT what you THINK it means.
I dom't have to "pretend" nobody is answering - before Cor, nobody bothered, even though I underlined it twice.
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I believe you when you say your claim is genuine, but it's a hollow claim irregardless. I can say I won't succumb to violence if somebody killed a loved one before my eyes, but what I say and what I do are two different things. You have to do something in your spare time. If you go cycling instead of playing computer games, then you will invest your money in a new bicycle much sooner. Instead, through your immoral theft, you receive the rewards of working people's labor, and give them nothing in return. You're not in a situation where piracy isn't an option, so you cannot say what you would and wouldn't do.
Oh yes I can. I can buy or not.
But ignore me and my benefits, immoral or not. It's about the producers.
For them, there is no difference. Corribus actually wrote a nice description of my reasoning, even though he disagrees. If there is no difference, and one way of behavior (ignoring XXX's products) is acceptable and not punishable, the other leading to the SAME effect should logically ALSO be acceptable and not punishable.
Since they are the same, they have the SAME effect when applied to 100% of people. But nobody says "if everyone thought like you regarding not buying shoes, they would go bankrupt" if you say you're not going to buy new Nike shoes cause they suck. Why is that? Even though it would be perfectly logical to say that cause that would indeed be the EFFECT.
You see my point? Cor, how about you? ;>
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 24, 2009 11:12 PM |
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Instead, through your immoral theft, you receive the rewards of working people's labor, and give them nothing in return.
They still have that reward too. If I build a bicycle for myself and someone comes and copies it, he hasn't really deprived me of my reward.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted November 24, 2009 11:12 PM |
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If there is no difference between the action and lack of action - regarding consequences - how come the action is considered a crime, then?
Because regardless of what you might have done, it's well within your potential and ability to perpetuate and encourage the same behaviour among others who would have spent money on the product. Hence any publisher/distributor would be within their rights to try and prevent this by making an example of you. You might say "I wouldn't encourage this", but why should they take you at your word after committing piracy of their product?
"I wasn't going to buy it anyway, we'll never run out of it, so why not steal it" wouldn't hold up in a court...
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted November 24, 2009 11:12 PM |
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Why isn't anybody pissed at people NOT buying stuff then? It leads to a very weird display of reality where ONE way of leading to a company bankruptcy is ok, but the other is not.
Wow... I'm stumped... Well, it is obvious right? By downloading you apparently have an interest in the product. Therefore, you WOULD buy it if you couldn't download it, if it was higher on your priorities.
If you do download something, then what the hell is it that makes you not buy it?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 24, 2009 11:13 PM |
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If you do download something, then what the hell is it that makes you not buy it?
Not having a money printing machine in my house.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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Nerf Herder
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posted November 24, 2009 11:14 PM |
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@Death:
Quote:
Theory-crafting vs reality
Nice job owning yourself.
Yes, when one nation unethically steals the labor from other nations, they're obviously going to enjoy the fruits of it. That is, after all, what makes piracy appealing. When Moroccan pirates were stealing from the Spanish, they certainly enjoyed gains from it. That's a no-brainer.
Where do you think the music and gaming companies were coming from? Romania? Of course not. You had e-gypsies leeching off of foreign companies. It was successful for them because they had so many citizens tapping into the reservoir and gaining skills in the process without hardly any native Romanians suffering the consequences of it.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 24, 2009 11:15 PM |
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Quote:
(1) All of us don't buy the CDs. Company bankrupts.
(2) All of us download the CDs. Company bankrupts.
Why isn't anybody pissed at people NOT buying stuff then? It leads to a very weird display of reality where ONE way of leading to a company bankruptcy is ok, but the other is not.
Because (2) denies the company any chance of honest success, whereas (1) does not.
If a company puts out a mediocre product and nobody buys it, and the company tanks as a result, then that's on the company's shoulders. The system will survive because future companies will (in principle) learn their lesson and make better products that people want. In essence, the company has control over its own future. It has the possibility to succeed.
If a company puts out a quality product and nobody buys it because they all download it for free, and the company tanks as a result, that's an abuse of the system. In this sense, it doesn't matter what the company does - it's doomed to failure no matter what quality its products have. The company has NO control over its future. By downloading a company's product without paying for it, you're not just stealing intellectual property; you're stealing the company's ability to thrive. You're denying the company the possibility to succeed, and that's why it's illegal.
Seriously, dude, do I even have to explain this?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 24, 2009 11:15 PM |
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Because regardless of what you might have done, it's well within your potential and ability to perpetuate and encourage the same behaviour among others who would have spent money on the product.
Why don't you tell the same to people who don't want to buy shoes of a near-bankrupting company? And write "those are bad shoes"
It would certainly do much good to that company.
I see people can only be defenders of the good cause when someone taught them XXX is bad... even though YYY has the same result and is socially acceptable.
The same with alcohol & drugs, though - despite similarities, people praise one and bash the other.
Quote:
"I wasn't going to buy it anyway, we'll never run out of it, so why not steal it" wouldn't hold up in a court...
Please don't mix stealing with downloading illegaly.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 24, 2009 11:16 PM |
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Yes, when one nation unethically steals the labor from other nations, they're obviously going to enjoy the fruits of it. That is, after all, what makes piracy appealing. When Moroccan pirates were stealing from the Spanish, they certainly enjoyed gains from it. That's a no-brainer.
Where do you think the music and gaming companies were coming from? Romania? Of course not. You had e-gypsies leeching off of foreign companies. It was successful for them because they had so many citizens tapping into the reservoir without hardly any native Romanians suffering the consequences of it.
Please do NOT talk of something you have NO clue about. Because you know NOTHING about it. The economy increased, so that counters the ARGUMENT that "piracy makes the economy suffer".
And btw the IT industry was boosted. Yeah, something that "suffers" from piracy.
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Doomforge
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posted November 24, 2009 11:18 PM |
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Cor: what if they release a good product, but I just don't give a snow? And other people as well?
I'm surprised you haven't taken this into account. Quality isn't an argument here.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 24, 2009 11:19 PM |
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Quote:
Please do NOT talk of something you have NO clue about. Because you know NOTHING about it. The economy increased, so that counters the ARGUMENT that "piracy makes the economy suffer".
And btw the IT industry was boosted. Yeah, something that "suffers" from piracy.
The economy in Romania was boosted because many of its citizens tapped into foreign companies products. These music, gaming, and other companies selling software weren't based in Romania. That's what I said. When a pirate steals something, they're obviously going to be better for it. But the world as a whole suffers.
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted November 24, 2009 11:21 PM |
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And why the heck "denying the ability to succeed" is illegal? Seriously? Is this some sort of joke? Why am I even obliged to care about their success? By not buying their stuff, I give them exactly the same "deny". Yet it's acceptable. Why aren't you buying new shoes each month then? You're denying companies' abilities to succeed, you know.
And you would still be if you found a way to pop a pair of their shoes in your basement. Throwing them away would do no good to them, actually.
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted November 24, 2009 11:22 PM |
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Let us suppose that the professional artists who record the songs get paid, say 2000€ a month for their work and the songs they have produced are released to the public. That sounds like an idea I could stand for. 
But where would the money come from? Just giving the music away doesn't sound like a very good business move for possible funders. Perhaps a charity or the taxpayers.
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 24, 2009 11:23 PM |
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The economy in Romania was boosted because many of its citizens tapped into foreign companies products. These music, gaming, and other companies selling software weren't based in Romania. That's what I said. When a pirate steals something, they're obviously going to be better for it. But the world as a whole suffers.
I'm not following your argument. If the IT industry was boosted, how is that different than Microsoft? You can pirate both. It has nothing to do with the country (unless the IT industry is owned by the state, but that's not the case here).
Imagine that many of the Microsoft programmers wouldn't have been employed in the first place (many of whom romanians).
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 24, 2009 11:23 PM |
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Cor: what if they release a good product, but I just don't give a snow? And other people as well?
I'm surprised you haven't taken this into account. Quality isn't an argument here.
So you think quality has no bearing on the success of a product?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 24, 2009 11:24 PM |
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Let us suppose that the professional artists who record the songs get paid, say 2000� a month for their work and the songs they have produced are released to the public. That sounds like an idea I could stand for.
But where would the money come from? Just giving the music away doesn't sound like a very good business move for possible funders. Perhaps a charity or the taxpayers.
I would gladly donate some money to such artist. And I think many would.
Besides, advertisements, concerts, and stuff. They bring some money, you know.
If he's not satisfied and it's capitalism, he can do something else. Nobody forces him to sing.
If he's not satisfied and it's socialism, he should understand that he shouldn't earn that much anyway lol.
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So you think quality has no bearing on the success of a product?
Why of course it does. I'm asking what correlation it has with the discussion and the problem I underlined?
I don't see a connection. The (2) and (3) are still the same, despite how good or bad the product is.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted November 24, 2009 11:26 PM |
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Edited by Shares at 23:28, 24 Nov 2009.
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Quote:
And why the heck "denying the ability to succeed" is illegal? Seriously? Is this some sort of joke? Why am I even obliged to care about their success? By not buying their stuff, I give them exactly the same "deny". Yet it's acceptable. Why aren't you buying new shoes each month then? You're denying companies' abilities to succeed, you know.
Because you live of society. Where do you get food, clothes, homes, every other thing you own (propably)? From money. Money is "pure" society. And by deniying people succes in society, you're denying society (more exact, the success in society (money)) and should not benefit from it. Which you obviously do. That would make you something similiar to a parasite. Only in this particular subject.
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