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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 11:15 AM |
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Well, nice discussion fellas, keep it up 
I'm not going to address the same points (again) with the same arguments, so there is no need for me to address new posts. Besides, you're not very convincing guys  But yeah, I'm pretty hard to convince.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned the most logical anti-download argument ethically, though...
That downloading is just ungrateful.
Yeah, no market BS (seriously guys, do you buy every single product to boost the market? No? Then shut up please, you are harming kazillion branches every second), no "theft" comments - this one I find best. Of course - as usual - this is subjective and personal.
Downloading IS ungrateful. It reminds me of a kid that gets a delicious meal from his mother and in return shows her the finger. Not really a crime, but it's disgusting.
So, a form of gratitude for the creators is welcome. Since they make a living of it, cash means a nice gratitude.
But that system of gratitude is flawed. I mean, what if I buy perfectly legal copy from someone, second hand? I get the game, it's legal, the producers get snow.
It's not that easy. I'd simply prefer a donate option. I wouldn't hesitate to donate some cash for creators of a few great games... of course not the outrageous sums they demand for buying the game, I can't afford to pay 1/4 of my monthly earnings, rotfl. But some cash... why of course.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 25, 2009 11:16 AM |
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No one's going to comment or have any thoughts in regarding to my post, previous page (3)? 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 11:20 AM |
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I can't say I would agree with it.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 11:22 AM |
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oh, I'd like to address one thing...
Quote:
@To all: the day (IF...) when you will work and produce ideas, artworks, anything intellectual as principal JOB, you will get pissed if someone owns it without paying not because you did not get any money for it, but more from being tortured by the idea that YOUR hard and long work is considered as free, thus worth nothing, zero, nada. This is enough to bring down your creativity.
Nope. Don't think everybody is cash crazed and will count every lost penny due to people that don't want to buy your product.
If I finish my book and some guys will download it rather than buying it, go ahead - I don't mind. If someone wants to show me some sort of gratitude, he'll buy it. If not, he's free to read it as ebook, I don't care. I write because I love it, not because I want $$$. I'd happily make a living with 600$ if I could focus on writing and live of it. I wouldn't give a damn whether I could or couldn't earn 6000$ if everybody who read my book would buy it rather than just reading it. I don't give a snow for "lots of cash".
But that's just me. Still, please don't assume EVERYBODY is just about CASH CASH CASH.
If people would like me book for free, it would be pleasant - more than higher earnings but being unknown.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 25, 2009 11:52 AM |
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Doom, are you living from writing books or you just extrapolate here (If..I would...then...)?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 11:55 AM |
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Quote:
If I finish my book...
Well, finish it then. And let's talk again when your publisher pays you zilch, but tells you the book has been downloaded a couple thousand times - illegally.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 12:01 PM |
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Not yet. Why, do you think I'd suddenly get money-crazed?
Come on. Why?
Money is not really important to me - beyond the amount you need to have a decent life, I mean... but how much is that, 1000$ per month? In Poland, yeah, something around that.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 25, 2009 12:06 PM |
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Quote:
Well, finish it then. And let's talk again when your publisher pays you zilch, but tells you the book has been downloaded a couple thousand times - illegally.
+1
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 12:08 PM |
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Nice that you're trying to invent scenarios based on how I will or won't behave and base your arguments on it.
-_-
Why can't you just ask whether I give a **** whether I get cash for my book or not?
And why can't you accept that what I'm saying is actually genuinely what I feel ? ;>
I could write for free if I could become popular. Being niche sucks.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 25, 2009 12:16 PM |
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I can accept it but you can't force me to believe it. I would prefer people who is living from writing books/music to post their opinions here, as it would be real life sharing experience, not dreaming about becoming famous and how "not important" is the money you get from.
Money is not only a source of freedom once you have it, it is also considered as a form of recognized good quality work. If one artist is always poor his ideas, his inspiration and his force are weakened simply because he has constantly to find other ways to survive, thus delay creation.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 12:16 PM |
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You don't get the point. The point is, JUST WRITE A BOOK THAT FIND INTERESTED PEOPLE. Then we can talk again.
As of yet, you didn't - or did you?
This is a bit like saying, if I win in the lottery or inherit a wad of cash I'll donate 90% to charity.
IF IF IF.
IF you HAD a wad of cash you didn't need to download illegally but could actually buy the stuff, right?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 25, 2009 12:20 PM |
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Quote:
I mean, what if I buy perfectly legal copy from someone, second hand? I get the game, it's legal, the producers get snow.
Not true. If the copy is legal that means that someone else paid to the producers for it. And then that someone "moved" that creations to you. Not duplicated, not shared, moved as in "he doesn't have it anymore". So there's still only one copy of that product out there for which the producers have been paid.
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Doomforge
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posted November 25, 2009 12:24 PM |
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I think sincere intentions are enough to make an argument like that.
Don't you think so?
Salamandre, what if the artist earns just enough to make a solid living, without buying 40.000$ worth painting every month? his work isn't really delayed in such scenario. yeah, I know they are pretty much all crazed about luxury, but that doesn't mean there isn't a single soul in the industry who does NOT want to have a gold toilet.
Geny: Moved, yeah. Too bad two people or more got to use it and only one expressed the gratitude.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 25, 2009 12:28 PM |
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Yeah, but the point is that the first person can't use it anymore. Say it was a game, he can't replay it or go online with more people. If it was a song, he can't listen to it no more. So a producer got the gratitude from one person and at any specific time only one person is using their product. What's not fair about it?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 12:32 PM |
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Quote:
I think sincere intentions are enough to make an argument like that.
Don't you think so?
No, I don't think so.
Allow me the question from what you live currently - what is paying your bills, in other words?
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 12:35 PM |
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Geny: Going by your logic, if I pay for the game, then multiply it, give it to other people and throw my CD out the window, this is fair.
Anyway guys, the funny part you omit is that different countries view downloading differently.
Check this out
As you see, it's not just my babble. It's a serious issue and saying stuff about "theft" is stupid, because it's so ambiguous, judges actually can interpret it at their own will.
What kind of "crime" it is when in one country you are allowed to do it, in other you aren't? And it's a "civilized" country after all.
It's more or less same stuff as age of consent. It's so varied that it's stupid to call a guy who broke it in one country a bad person - globally - because someplace else, he wouldn't be bothered due to age of consent being a few years lower.
Ambiguous rules people are trying to make, I'd say. And they are up to interpretation. Yet some of you seem almost brainwashed that it is a CRIME. C_R_I_M_E. Despicable act. Same league as theft, rape or murder - things that are undoubtly despicable and you can't say "well that murder wasn't really a crime, there was no harm".
JJ: mostly a massive scholarship.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 25, 2009 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
Going by your logic, if I pay for the game, then multiply it, give it to other people and throw my CD out the window, this is fair.
How exactly did you come to that conclusion after I specifically said several time that you do NOT duplicate the game and that there's only ONE copy of it at any given time?
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JollyJoker
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posted November 25, 2009 12:43 PM |
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Quote:
JJ: mostly a massive scholarship.
Right. That will expire sometime in the future. Then what?
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted November 25, 2009 12:46 PM |
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Geny: What does it change? There is no difference for the game maker whether you put in on your shelf, throw it off the window or give it to someone after you're done playing.
The person who gets if from you doesn't pay the producers for it. Again, it's the same issue of "no difference". Someone gets a benefit, but the company gets nothing. Using the same argumentation as you did earlier (was it you?), he should buy it instead, because if everyone borrowed or bought from his friends after they get bored, the sells would be many times lower and the companies would bankrupt.
What about sharing? What if I just lend the game to someone? Two people getting the benefit of a single license "legally".
What if I keep the bill, which means I have a confirmation that I bought the game, which makes me allowed to create copies for my own use (yes, legal backups)? How many times have you gave the bill to someone when selling a game, or lending it? You see, that makes it possible to "multiply" the game while being "legal"... so many tricks you can perform. This is so up to interpretation, it's not even funny - why do we even bother.
Why is youtube and youtube-like sites allowed? Why is it allowed to download from them? (yes it is, in fact.)
YOu see, it's not the black&white I-pay-or-I-don't reasoning you're trying to imply.
JJ: no clue, honestly. We'll see after I finish the college.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 25, 2009 12:47 PM |
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Doom, limiting this discussion to artists who gain 40 000$ month is pointless. Not a good example. One could also argue that money from those established artists the company gain is used to promote unknown one and aliment progress and continuity.
But there is a point you ignore: an artist needs cash not only to live, eat and sleep between 4 walls, but also for learning. I don't talk about rap singers or street painters, I am talking about those painters who need to buy all painting albums or those musicians who need constantly to complete a huge database and inspire from. Otherwise they learn nothing. And (example) painting albums, CD, videos cost money and a lot. Only me for example I own a huge music score database of 15 000 music scores in which constantly all my money is going. Can I live without them? Surely. Can I continue my work without them? Nope.
Do you know how much costs a good violin for example? Between 300 000 and 1 million dollars. How a violin player gets a good instrument if all his CD are shared and he gets nothing?
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This thread is pages long: 
