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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted November 26, 2009 09:10 PM |
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Quote:
What kind of people are you?
We are OSM, we are many.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 09:16 PM |
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JJ, you're getting carried away.
Seriously, nothing to be furious at. If you don't like my example (which obviously was meant to demonstrate a sucky law, and not compare anything to anything... why did you even come up with this? Is my post suggesting any sort of comparison between a life and a game?), I can give you another. I don't even have to, you probably know some laws that are just a joke.
But it's not the topic. The question is mentality behind it.
You nearly suggested that law is but to be obeyed at all costs, and if you don't like it, you should NEVER break it (because it's morally incorrect), but rather, CHANGE it.
I ask, what if the law is wrong or evil. Will you keep doing this until you change the law, and then just stop, start doing the opposite and consider it ok?
WHat's the moral value of a law if a claim made by it gets REVERSED in a couple years? So, it's ok to be a pirate for 10 years in Argentina, and then, new law comes out, and it's suddenly NOT ok?
It BEGS for a drastic example like the one I gave to open your eyes. Seriously, you're more than twice my age and you need examples like that to like, prove the obvious?
I guess you're just angry and that's why it looks like that. Hey, don't forget we got along well all the time on HC and agreed which each other a lot. Why the sudden change of style? I'm not Elodin, you know. If you give good arguments, I listen.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 09:19 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
And that Death is chiming in is no wonder - his style of arguing. No logic, no sense, grabbing for everything that mey seem worth a shot. I have to say, that this is getting disgusting. What kind of people are you?
People Parrots...
fixed
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted November 26, 2009 09:21 PM |
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Am I the only dude here that realizes that all of our members from the ex-Eastern bloc are pro piracy and all the folks from the West against it?
Now here's a dumb question.
Have you ever given it some thought that - considering that the prices of original games are same if not higher in the East - we would more than gladly climb on your moral high-horse if we had your wages, standard and way of life? And that perhaps some of us might not like to be kept firmly in our place as second-class citizens of the world and our kids denied the games or music or programs that you can get any day simply cause we happened to be born in a different part of the world?
Just ponder that for a bit.
...
Exactly.
It's a communist plot to destroy your families.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 09:28 PM |
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Not just people on the East, but also mostly students who struggle with their income. Of course, I suppose it's because the elderly mostly want to cling on to their days (although to be fair one of the leaders of swedish Pirate Party is "elderly"), because they already secured their income or are in a very good position to judge, or simply they want to maintain their order, am I rite?
If not that, they go and spread propaganda, link terrorism with sharing, etc etc. To "brainwash" the "young" so to speak. I mean there have even been cases where the DMCA was used to take down criticism of a copyrighted work. Plentiful times we live in.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 09:29 PM |
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Quote:
JJ, you're getting carried away.
Seriously, nothing to be furious at. If you don't like my example (which obviously was meant to demonstrate a sucky law, and not compare anything to anything... why did you even come up with this? Is my post suggesting any sort of comparison between a life and a game?), I can give you another. I don't even have to, you probably know some laws that are just a joke.
But it's not the topic. The question is mentality behind it.
You nearly suggested that law is but to be obeyed at all costs, and if you don't like it, you should NEVER break it (because it's morally incorrect), but rather, CHANGE it.
I ask, what if the law is wrong or evil. Will you keep doing this until you change the law, and then just stop, start doing the opposite and consider it ok?
WHat's the moral value of a law if a claim made by it gets REVERSED in a couple years? So, it's ok to be a pirate for 10 years in Argentina, and then, new law comes out, and it's suddenly NOT ok?
It BEGS for a drastic example like the one I gave to open your eyes. Seriously, you're more than twice my age and you need examples like that to like, prove the obvious?
I guess you're just angry and that's why it looks like that. Hey, don't forget we got along well all the time on HC and agreed which each other a lot. Why the sudden change of style? I'm not Elodin, you know. If you give good arguments, I listen.
It's because you twist the facts like you need them.
Are you living in an evil state? Yes or no?
If YES, you should leave it or fight it.
If no, you have to accept the CURRENT law as CURRENT law, because if you don't, EVERYONE HAS THE SAME RIGHT THAN YOU to pick laws they don't like and break them: hit people because they don't like their nose because it's a ridiculous law that you can't hit people you think deserve being hit. That should be obvious.
Now, if you don't like a law you can try and change it - that's one of the characteristics of a non-evil state that you CAN, for frag's sake.
Dont't you see that?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 09:37 PM |
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My friend, I understand that. I just don't see why do I have to morally agree with every law or obey it when I'm sincerely sure my act does not cause harm or even change the situation.
You say, fight the law. How? Form a pirate party? Join one? fine. But when we get overvoted, what can I say? "I tried and failed, so ok, I will leave my principles behind and follow the majority, just because they are MAJORITY?"
Say, 60% people want some sort of law and 40% does not. Once the law is accepted, does it mean that those 40% are doing something morally wrong by breaking it? should the proportions change, it would be the other group breaking the law. Such relativity is unacceptable when it comes to determining what is right or wrong, at least to me.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 09:43 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 21:55, 26 Nov 2009.
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Quote:
It's because you twist the facts like you need them.
Are you living in an evil state? Yes or no?
If YES, you should leave it or fight it.
If no, you have to accept the CURRENT law as CURRENT law, because if you don't, EVERYONE HAS THE SAME RIGHT THAN YOU to pick laws they don't like and break them: hit people because they don't like their nose because it's a ridiculous law that you can't hit people you think deserve being hit. That should be obvious.
Now, if you don't like a law you can try and change it - that's one of the characteristics of a non-evil state that you CAN, for frag's sake.
Dont't you see that?
First it takes couple of years to do so. Second, you can't vote on resolutions, only on select few people. Apart from the Pirate Party, there's really no other party that focuses on ONE approach -- either way, you lose. You don't live in the real world. Just last election here (Sunday) showed how corrupt the voting system is, where a specific party can simply buy off farmers cheap (they have extremely low income so offering them $20 is a huge lot for a vote). WTF when farmers don't even DEAL with issues like this, why would their vote count? They didn't even know what issue it was about, for frag's sake!
The "fair system" is COMPLETELY a JOKE. Not as bad as dictatorships, by any means, but still a JOKE.
But that's not even the point, I mean, copyright is used to RESTRICT, get that, RESTRICT someone's right to copy/use his computer/internet. It's not something like, where to spend taxes, or more national interests or whatever. It's used to take away rights from the majority.
Here's an interesting quote:
Human rights originate in Nature, thus, rights cannot be granted via political charter, because that implies that rights are legally revocable, hence, would be privileges:
It is a perversion of terms to say that a charter gives rights. It operates by a contrary effect -- that of taking rights away. Rights are inherently in all the inhabitants; but charters, by annulling those rights, in the majority, leave the right, by exclusion, in the hands of a few ... They ... consequently are instruments of injustice.
The fact, therefore, must be that the individuals, themselves, each, in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a compact with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist.
(you might find the source if you google, I heard it's from Thomas Paine)
you know what would be more fair? Those who vote to take away people's rights to leave those people alone. I'm sure they themselves would pay for each others' COPIES (after all they bloody fight for it) so what's the deal? you wanna impose it on others?
EDIT: damn signatures can't be too long...
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 26, 2009 10:22 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 10:28 PM |
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Quote:
My friend, I understand that. I just don't see why do I have to morally agree with every law or obey it when I'm sincerely sure my act does not cause harm or even change the situation.
You say, fight the law. How? Form a pirate party? Join one? fine. But when we get overvoted, what can I say? "I tried and failed, so ok, I will leave my principles behind and follow the majority, just because they are MAJORITY?"
Say, 60% people want some sort of law and 40% does not. Once the law is accepted, does it mean that those 40% are doing something morally wrong by breaking it? should the proportions change, it would be the other group breaking the law. Such relativity is unacceptable when it comes to determining what is right or wrong, at least to me.
Doom, you don't have to agree morally. You don't even have to stop downloading stuff. But you should stop trying to justify it. The law is the law, and if you live in a state that is based on human rights and so on the law is what gives stability. It hasn't got to do with morals - it's all about RESPECT. If you claim the right CHANGING the law with a majority, you have to accept that same thing when the majority is against you.
Don't you see that's the foundation of all society? Oh, there's an alternative, you can ask Elodin about it or read it in the Old Testament.
But if you want to live in a society you have to accept majority votes AGAINST you, because you want the same if you are part of the majority.
I repeat: it's irrelevant whether you find a specific law morally okay or not. As long as it is law you have to abide to it (or break it, but accept being tagged a criminal).
What do you think why laws are being changed over the years?
I repeat, the bad thing isn't downloading. The bad thing is making stuff available for download when you have no business doing that
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 26, 2009 10:32 PM |
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Edited by veco at 22:57, 26 Nov 2009.
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Mininova illegal content is already gone. Good riddance.
If this keeps up the entertainment business won't make any more money, or it could probably make less.
The thing is - people who wouldn't buy anything won't buy anything, or more likely there will be a re-introduction of street selling pirated games/movies/music.
And those who download illegaly (because it's more convenient and free, opposed to street pirates) to gauge wether it's worth buying will decrease as well.
Banning torrents won't give anyone profit except for those who sell pirated copies. Everyone loses.
Look at Apple, throwing it's own customers to jail for having illegal mp3s on iPhones. Brilliant strategy, lol. - Brain fart
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none of my business.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 10:37 PM |
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Mininova illegal content is already gone. Good riddance.
You didn't download from it (or did you), what's your beef with it then?
(not to mention it was just a torrent indexer, which is totally worthless with magnet links)
Quote:
The law is the law, and if you live in a state that is based on human rights and so on the law is what gives stability.
The law can't be used to suppress human rights.
Quote:
It hasn't got to do with morals - it's all about RESPECT.
Yeah, like respect the law in Third Reich 
Quote:
If you claim the right CHANGING the law with a majority, you have to accept that same thing when the majority is against you.
Ah therein lies the problem. I don't think it's ME who wants to change the law to oppress people in their lives. I want to lift up the OPPRESSION and restrictions on what people can do and can't do regarding using their technologies (in their own circle, might I add, since sharing doesn't touch the others outside "them").
The law does not have the power to alienate human rights, period.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 10:43 PM |
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Quote:
Look at Apple, throwing it's own customers to jail for having illegal mp3s on iPhones
Do you have a source for such a statement? Because the BS meter is pegging in the red zone.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 10:47 PM |
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Scripts autosave all indexes and transmit them to different sites.
Yeah, good riddance indeed - like it changes something, lol.
JJ: I see your point and I have no rights to argue that your point of view is wrong, of course. You respect all laws of "good" country, I don't - cause I find some unfair and as long as I'm breaking something that's just an idea of majority - without causing HARM - I don't care whether I do it or not.
The best example would be gay marriage - illegal in most of the countries without any serious logic behind that.
Or simply gay sex, OUTLAWED (!) by some countries and even US states (seriously.)
Can you tell me, are those laws something you agree with and would respect?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 26, 2009 10:51 PM |
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No problem. But if you don't care about the laws, why should you care about being branded as criminal?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 10:51 PM |
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I don't care already, isn't this obvious? Let people call me whatever they want. 
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 26, 2009 10:54 PM |
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 26, 2009 10:56 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Look at Apple, throwing it's own customers to jail for having illegal mp3s on iPhones
Do you have a source for such a statement? Because the BS meter is pegging in the red zone.
Oh sorry, I put faith in rumors I heared some time ago, will fix it now.
It's reassuring that some actually read my posts but putting aside my mistake, my point still stands. So I take it that it's so agreeable that it's not worth replying to?
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none of my business.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 27, 2009 08:39 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 20:39, 27 Nov 2009.
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I just took a bit of free time and ran through this thread. One penalty was the minimum I had to apply. I am pretty sure I missed at least 2 or 3 other penalty worthy posts, maybe others can show them. 15 pages to read in 15 minutes isn't that easy...
So please stop getting personal here, and try it with arguments instead.
Some notes from my side to the topic and some opinions:
1. Sharing / Stealing
- I always have to laugh if someone says illegal downloading is sharing but not stealing.
When I was a young boy, and someone explained the word "sharing" to me, it always had something to do with "portion". Sharing his sandwich in school with his best friends meant, he got one half, and I got one half. There have never been TWO sandwiches after we shared them
2. "We are living in a poorer country, therefore it is pretty much ok if we act a bit more illegaly than those who have a higher living standard!"
- The living standard in the USA or in Germany is for sure lower than in Monaco or Dubai. Does that mean americans and germans are allowed to steal more than the people from Monaco and Dubai?
I'm pretty sure you know yoruself that arguments was more than weak!
3. @ Doomforge
- I have a question for you, and I really want YOU to be the first one who gives a response to that question (So please all others (esp. TheDeath!) calm down until he posted his reply  ) Please try to use similar arguments you have used refering to your beloved downloading
--> Why is it illegal to copy money?
Thanx for your time.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 27, 2009 08:51 PM |
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1) So if you could duplicate your sandwich to give it to your friend, you would call him a thief, is that what you're saying? Nice and very generous.
Here's a simple answer to 3). Money is used to deprive people of what they have (they receive money). If you copy money, that means theoretically, that you can use money and they give you something for it.
This is equivalent to copying a song then SELLING it (i.e they give you something for it), which is fraud or plagiarism, depending how you look at it. Which is what, ironically, would happen (i.e street piracy) if sharing was outlawed (100%).
sorry i had to reply to it as I'll be off for the rest of today.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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This thread is pages long: 
