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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted November 26, 2009 06:15 PM |
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"normally" is not the right word. There are various ways to acquire information. In the past, it was pretty hard due to illiteracy and "dictatorship". Someone can ask me to pay $1000 for something on ebay, doesn't mean I'm gonna think about it.
Well I'm pretty sure that paying for something is normal in this day and age. Getting stuff for free is rare (although, thanks to the Internet, becoming more and more common).
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?
Connected what you said about being annoying with the last part of what I said. 
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You post, it's read by all. What do you expect from a forum?
True, but when I ask a specific person something then I don't want someone else to answer it. Fair enough, no?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 06:25 PM |
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Well I'm pretty sure that paying for something is normal in this day and age.
Maybe in the 70s. I can't believe we're in almost two decades after the failed industry model and some people still cling to it. How long will it last, a century?
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Getting stuff for free is rare (although, thanks to the Internet, becoming more and more common).
"in this day and age" we HAVE the Internet. And it is a MARVELOUS technology. Copying stuff is a MARVELOUS technology as well, EASY distribution is again another thing that should be EMBRACED. Just imagine if we could copy the rest of the stuff in the world. (still dreaming about nanobots myself, heh).
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Connected what you said about being annoying with the last part of what I said.
Still don't get it. You mean my answer was annoying? Right. Calling it stealing is annoying as well, and not reading the thread and the arguments as to why it's not stealing is also annoying, especially when you call people who take their time to repeat themselves (when they really shouldn't if you took time to read) annoying.
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True, but when I ask a specific person something then I don't want someone else to answer it. Fair enough, no?
We both know that anyone pro-sharing says the same thing, because it's the truth.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted November 26, 2009 06:30 PM |
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No, people these days still have to pay for stuff, just like the 70's. Fail to see your point.
Yes, internet is great. I don't disagree with you there.
I thought you replying to something not directed at you was annoying, like I've already said. And seriously, you can say it's not stealing or whatever, but I and obviously some other people think it is stealing. Let's just agree to disagree and shut the **** up about it and move on. Otherwise we'll be sitting here forever going back and forth trying to convince one another. lol
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 06:41 PM |
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No, people these days still have to pay for stuff, just like the 70's. Fail to see your point.
There is no rule saying you have to pay for it. Of course people still pay, if they want to make an exchange. Natural rule. There's no exchange.
And it is pretty obvious that what people DEMAND is a different model because they simply don't want to pay in the traditional way for COPIES/DISTRIBUTION since they can DO IT THEMSELVES. Because in that model, THAT IS WHAT YOU PAY FOR, DISTRIBUTION, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. Read up on the history of copyright on the long link I gave pages back if you haven't, and enlighten yourself.
There is a problem here with "free vs paid", when "paid" means "the craptastic model to pay for copies". Let me say this another way: you should support an artist in some way (a model/system), you should not pay for individual copies. I've said this a hundred times and gave links detailing it. (because frankly I'm tired of writing myself)
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And seriously, you can say it's not stealing or whatever, but I and obviously some other people think it is stealing.
and here's where you need arguments. So far, given my arguments (see my "quote" you found "annoying"), it has nothing to do with 'stealing'.
If everyone was like way, imagine religious threads who want to be constructive getting a Fortress_Fan saying "I think God exists. Period. That's all. You're all wrong." and how constructive that would be.
I'm sure that convinces many people to THINK about it, alright!  [/sarcasm]
it's simply not constructive. Back up your points and why you think so and be ready to be counter-argumented. Otherwise what are you doing on a thread? 
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Let's just agree to disagree and shut the **** up about it and move on. Otherwise we'll be sitting here forever going back and forth trying to convince one another. lol
Also, without warez you would have had no idea about music production yourself (FL Studio for instance), and God knows how many artists were "brought up" because of it (but of course you don't care about artists after 95s that much so you wouldn't know)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 06:45 PM |
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Seems I have no choice but to add a few auxiliary questions 
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Not to mention being big hypocrites. The Death, Doom and all others pro-"sharing", I am looking for a illegal HoMM5 copy (preferable torrent), can you give me a working link HERE please?
A simple question for you. Have you ever downloaded something from the internet that had dubious legality?
This also includes watching a music video at youtube, or a part of movie.
Besides, what kind of question is that - this is, after all, a private forum, Val can set any rules he wishes. There is no piracy linking allowed, but that doesn't mean anything - if he set a rule that there is no "S" allowed in nicks, you'd get banned. And? What would THAT prove except that the owner of the site can set whatever rule he wishes and you either obey it or get banned? : O
JJ, for an intelligent man, you trust those laws too much. It's indeed not some kind of divine order. If the law is badly constructed, disobeying it doesn't make you an evil person. Again, Third Reich. What was following their laws good for? Yet they were people who just said "it's the law" and that was all. Blind lawfulness is pointless. From what you are saying, we should respect the law. Fine. But any kind of law, even as stupid as copyright law?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 06:47 PM |
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Oh now I get what Salamandre meant.
Yeah Salamandre, you're right, for example, civil rights activists in Iran should turn up also to the government, otherwise they're hypocrites!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 06:54 PM |
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This is a subject for another discussion actually, but I wonder. Would you consider copying a car and multiplying it thievery? Or better, medicine or food. It would indeed deny the profits of the pharmacologist companies or farmers, but it would also put an end to food&medicine shortage. Which would be more important, to you? Personal good or collective good?
This is a heavy theory, but it is connected to the "is multiplying = stealing problem".
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 07:00 PM |
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@Doomforge, huh?
You talk about this being Val's board and he can make his own rules, but at the same time you say that the music/game/movie/software companies CAN'T make their own rules. That's a contradiction. They are both the same thing. They are both cases that a person/company can decide if and how their property can be used.
If Val wants to say that people can't use the letter 'S' in their posts, then he can decide that. If a music publisher decides that people can't download their songs, then they can do that also. Val is under no obligation whatsoever to even provide this board, that's entirely at his discretion. If the music publisher decides that nobody can listen to their music, then that's at their discretion also.
The music belongs to the publisher and/or the artist. They can decide anything they want about it. People argue about the value, or the time involved in making it, or the price a publisher charges, or the fact that some people wouldn't buy the song anyway. All of that is completely irrelevant. It belongs to the publishers/artist and they can decide whatever they want about who can listen to it and under what circumstances.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 07:10 PM |
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Yes. The question is, how bad am I when I disobey him.
Am I a criminal for laughing at his law and making a nick like SSSSS?
It may be kinda unfriendly. I mean, I register at his boards, do something he doesn't want and act like an ungrateful snowman, even though he did spent a while on those boards and I came to him, not vice versa.
But is this a crime? Nah. Lack of manners, perhaps.
Same argument with songs. They expect me not to download it? They WANT me not to download it? Oh. It's nice to want, but seriously, what if I just don't care about what they want?
I'm a bad man? possibly. A criminal? I don't think so. For the reasons I already mentioned like a kazillion times, and since I decided not to repeat myself anymore... Yes, it's not nice to disobey them. No, there is no reason to imprison me for it or make me pay a fine.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted November 26, 2009 07:19 PM |
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*tries to get old man voice*
Yooul going to hell for yeh sins boe!
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 07:20 PM |
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The point is that it's not YOUR decision what the publisher does or does not do with THEIR property.
Are you a bad man? Morally, yes.
Are you a criminal? Legally, yes.
And speaking of Val. Do any of you people think it's ok to create a new web site that's an exact copy of HC? Is it OK to download his html code, his style sheets, his graphics, and everything else that makes up the site, and make your own site from it?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 07:35 PM |
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You talk about this being Val's board and he can make his own rules, but at the same time you say that the music/game/movie/software companies CAN'T make their own rules.
You're right of course, they can make their rules on their sites as they please. I don't think file sharers are sharing with the publishers, however, so I don't see your point at all.
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The point is that it's not YOUR decision what the publisher does or does not do with THEIR property.
/facepalm
Of course that's right. I mean, you don't go to a store to steal a CD. I didn't say that, did I? That would, indeed, affect them as it's their store.
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And speaking of Val. Do any of you people think it's ok to create a new web site that's an exact copy of HC? Is it OK to download his html code, his style sheets, his graphics, and everything else that makes up the site, and make your own site from it?
If you call it yours, it's called plagiarism.
My link addressed this, as many other such "typical" questions, but of course, no one bothered to read it. (I'm talking about the short FAQ, not the long essay).
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted November 26, 2009 07:40 PM |
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And speaking of Val. Do any of you people think it's ok to create a new web site that's an exact copy of HC? Is it OK to download his html code, his style sheets, his graphics, and everything else that makes up the site, and make your own site from it?
And then use it all by yourself?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 08:00 PM |
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The point is that it's not YOUR decision what the publisher does or does not do with THEIR property.
True. Do you see me telling them what to do with their property, though?
Or, can you see my actions harming his property in any way?
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Are you a bad man? Morally, yes.
Are you a criminal? Legally, yes.
But the question is whether I am a criminal MORALLY.
I don't care about my legal state. In Third Reich, I'd be outlawed for helping Jews. In US, I'd go to jail for having sex with a 15yo girl. Who cares about local laws  They come and go. Morality remains.
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And speaking of Val. Do any of you people think it's ok to create a new web site that's an exact copy of HC? Is it OK to download his html code, his style sheets, his graphics, and everything else that makes up the site, and make your own site from it?
How would this harm Val if I kept a copy on my hard drive?
Lol, in fact I already do, and you too... and everyone else.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 08:17 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:18, 26 Nov 2009.
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@Binabik: Copyright is a civil offense anyway, not criminal. Theft is criminal. Yet again you are talking about some "changed" law in your favor -- not hard to say that we (pro-sharing) can argue the same, and it's what the pirate parties worldwide want.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 08:17 PM |
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Or, can you see my actions harming his property in any way?
Irrelevant
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But the question is whether I am a criminal MORALLY.
Yes, you are.
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How would this harm Val if I kept a copy on my hard drive?
Lol, in fact I already do, and you too... and everyone else.
He's given permission for that. But he has NOT given permision for you to upload it and create a site of your own using his code.
To my knowledge Val has not filed for legal copyright protection of HC. But the legal and moral side of it still remains. Whether he actually filed for a copyright or not doesn't change the fact that it's his property, and as such he can decide who and how people can use it. That's true both morally and legally.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 08:20 PM |
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not hard to say that we (pro-sharing) can argue the same
As I've said before, you can't share something that you don't own. Using a word like "sharing" is 100% rationalization.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 08:21 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:22, 26 Nov 2009.
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But the question is whether I am a criminal MORALLY.
Yes, you are.
No he's not.
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To my knowledge Val has not filed for legal copyright protection of HC. But the legal and moral side of it still remains. Whether he actually filed for a copyright or not doesn't change the fact that it's his property, and as such he can decide who and how people can use it. That's true both morally and legally.
You're right, it's his property. That's why we can't just hack his system and destroy his servers or wherever it's hosted. (this is not sarcasm)
Because THAT is property.
by the way you saw my post -- it's forever in your head (even if subconsciously). You are a thief because it's my copyright, or you have to really get it out of your head.
Of course that's "fair use", but that is PRECISELY because this copyright "law" is RIDICULOUS.
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As I've said before, you can't share something that you don't own. Using a word like "sharing" is 100% rationalization.
I never shared anything with the publishers. That I not bought, I mean. When people share, they don't touch the publishers and consequently their property.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted November 26, 2009 08:25 PM |
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Hosting it somewhere is creating an unfair competition, much as selling someone's work. I'm against that, I'm only for keeping stuff you wouldn't normally get anyway for yourself and yourself only.
But well Bin, if you are certain this IS thievery or other instance of offense towards human kind, we have nothing else to talk about.
I gave all arguments throughout the thread. If you, after reading them still think so, let's leave it at that.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted November 26, 2009 08:26 PM |
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Selling someone's work in competition is called fraud. Selling it but also claiming you are the owner is both fraud and PLAGIARISM.
Of course anti-sharers tend to mix them up and heck I've even seen references to terrorists. I mean whatever makes the brainwashed people tick, right?
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This thread is pages long: 
