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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 24, 2011 02:56 PM |
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Piracy is theft. The artist is "working" and expecting due compensation for his endeavors. The pirate takes advantage of the work but selfishly refuses to pay.
Piracy would be quite easy to virtually stop. Make the laws very strictly require a large amount of prison time for any pirate caught. You would not need to catch every pirate. The stiff sentence would deter enough thieves that the artists would not be too badly affected by the remaining ones.
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Revelation
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 24, 2011 03:40 PM |
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And hence back to what I said: All studies i have read shows that the sale of music, games and films has NOT decreased after the age of torrent and P2P came.
Unless you can prove that it is actually the case, there is nothing to whine over.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 04:42 PM |
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That's wrong in more than one way.
1) The only question is whether piracy is costing revenues - the question whether the revenues have declined or not are without meaning.
2) The second question is what would happen if everyone would go for pirated stuff - which is a perfectly legal question: you can't legalize something on the premise that no harm is done as long as it is limited to a certain number of persons and as long as a majority is paying.
That means nothing else than that the majority is paying for the minority, and believe me, that's something the majority doesn't want to be forced to.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 24, 2011 05:03 PM |
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Well, since we're insisting on making the piracy topic part of this discussion, let's turn it into
Dilemma #8
The next installment of your favorite computer game was just released, and you want it really badly, but the retail price is a whopping $69.00 US. You are complaining to a friend about the price, because you don't know whether to spend that much or not on a game, and he smiles and hands you a disk with the game's name written on it in magic marker. He tells you it's a pirated version of the game that works fine and is completely free. There's no possibility of getting caught.
Do you take it?
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 24, 2011 05:30 PM |
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Quote:
That's wrong in more than one way.
1) The only question is whether piracy is costing revenues - the question whether the revenues have declined or not are without meaning.
2) The second question is what would happen if everyone would go for pirated stuff - which is a perfectly legal question: you can't legalize something on the premise that no harm is done as long as it is limited to a certain number of persons and as long as a majority is paying.
That means nothing else than that the majority is paying for the minority, and believe me, that's something the majority doesn't want to be forced to.
1. If revenue is not declining, piracy have had no effect on it.
This of course implies that the revenue is linear with the size of the marked.
There is also another problem: If there was no piracy, BUT the people are buying the exact same volum of entertainment, does that mean a person who is not buying music is hurting the company via not buying?
All logic dictates that is not the case.
2. We won't know until we are at that point, until you realize that it is already the case for music. All music is "pirated" via crowdsurfing, and that inital impact is what enables music and games to be sold in the first place. The crowdsurfing is also the reason we have commercials: To inform costumers that there is a product on the marked.
If anything: Piracy is currently todays version of crowdsurfing and commercials.
How many shows would you have watched if none of the people you assosicate yourself with never watched any shows, if there was no commercials, and there was no place where people spread the word?
This is a important question, because it is easy to answer.
Dilemma 8?
It would save me the time to download it, so sure, but I would still buy it retail when the price is not ludricruse AND if the game is actually good.
I image I would be a bit less greedy if I got a stable job instead of being busy with education, but my answer would still be the same.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 05:36 PM |
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Do you really think your last post contains a point in answer to the points I made?
I on't see any.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 24, 2011 05:38 PM |
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Quote:
Do you really think your last post contains a point in answer to the points I made?
I on't see any.
It is there, but somewhat cryptic.
I see no reason to spell it out.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 24, 2011 05:53 PM |
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Quote:
Well, since we're insisting on making the piracy topic part of this discussion, let's turn it into
Dilemma #8
The next installment of your favorite computer game was just released, and you want it really badly, but the retail price is a whopping $69.00 US. You are complaining to a friend about the price, because you don't know whether to spend that much or not on a game, and he smiles and hands you a disk with the game's name written on it in magic marker. He tells you it's a pirated version of the game that works fine and is completely free. There's no possibility of getting caught.
Do you take it?
I don't believe in theft so I would not take it.
Although some claim pirates would not buy the game if they could not steal it that is clearly not true. If the game could not be stolen some percentage of the pirates would indeed buy the game because they enjoy it enough to steal it and most pirates actually have enough money to purchase the game or can get the money within a short time frame.
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Revelation
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 24, 2011 06:23 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 18:28, 24 Apr 2011.
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You can also call it murder if you like. Or pedophilia. That doesn't make it true.
Murder is murder, stealing is stealing, and piracy is piracy. They're rather different things.
What Elodin and most of the industry are doing right now is making a deliberate category error in order to sway more people to their point of view. "Thievery" sounds far more vile than "unauthorized information sharing", and they're misusing it to the max and getting away with it. As most of them are fully aware of the differences between piracy and stealing, what they're doing is, essentially, a subtle form of lying, which I, for example, consider unethical.
Anyway, this last dilemma is more for you Westerners. That kind of money is one third of a solid salary here. So imma skip that one, since I'd probably be the one handing out the disk, and no one I know would refuse it.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 24, 2011 06:34 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:35, 24 Apr 2011.
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Perhaps we can start with a more fundamental question: Is it possible to own information?
@Bak
At what price point is it no longer "worth" pirating software?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 06:36 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:42, 24 Apr 2011.
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Quote:
I don't believe in theft
I can ensure you it sometimes happens 
dilemma 8 : guess I would take it.
Quote:
Is it possible to own information?
well, obviously there are people who hoard information to make profit out of it. there are laws that states that it is possible I guess, but you probably want to go beyond laws?
what is important in your question is the nature of information I guess? can you tell more about what you think?
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 24, 2011 06:47 PM |
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Your first question is the core of the issue here, Corribus, and it probably requires a thread of its own.
The second one, well, what something's worth to someone differs from person to person. But I'm pretty sure sales would rise if prices were scaled to the average wage at the same rate as in the West. Of course, that would make it possible to a Westerner to come over here and get music or software for next to nothing, but then again, they already do it for sex, drugs and alcohol, and it's called tourism.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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gnomes2169
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Duke of the Glade
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posted April 24, 2011 06:58 PM |
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Dilemma 8
I do think that I would, but I don't think that I would enjoy it as much as something that I worked and paid for.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 07:15 PM |
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We arde not talking about ownership, but about copyright.
Piracy is basically like tax evasion. EVERYONE does it, is something you hear often, and, hey, the government is screwing us anyway.
Now, if EVERYONE did it, however, things would look rather bleak - not to mention the fact that those who actually DO pay taxes are less and less willing to do so the more people evade.
As is the case with digital information technology. If everyone would pirate it, there was no money in it. That would mean, no omne would bother anymore, at least not professionally.
Piracy, therefore, is working only because ENOUGH people pay, be it taxes or games.
Which means that people who use pirated stuff actually ARE living off of those who pay.
This is again the same thing as with tax evasion - people who evade taxes, are in effect living off of those who DO pay taxes.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 07:22 PM |
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Quote:
Although some claim pirates would not buy the game if they could not steal it that is clearly not true. If the game could not be stolen some percentage of the pirates would indeed buy the game because they enjoy it enough to steal it and most pirates actually have enough money to purchase the game or can get the money within a short time frame.
Or nobody would buy it from those that pirated it, which would mean a massive decline in popularity, marketing issues and in general a loss. You seem not to understand how many people buy the game because they have seen it at their friends' (pirated) and want them for themselves.
Who knows.
I know I would never ever buy a game with my current funds, save Diablo3 which I'm already saving for. So, whether I have the game or not is highly unimportant, no developer or whatever is getting ANY money from me anyways.
Obviously, all-piracy is worse then no-piracy, but methinks no-piracy is also bad.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 24, 2011 07:22 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:24, 24 Apr 2011.
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Quote:
Perhaps we can start with a more fundamental question: Is it possible to own information?
A computer program, a musical score, a poem, an equipment blueprint, or a book is more than just information. It is "information" than an individual or group of individuals created using some amount of effort and creativity.
It could take an inventor, an engineer, a poet, a novelist, a musician, ect, many years to produce the information that becomes a song, a poem, a book, a blueprint, ect. The "information" is the result of his labor. Surely the "information" such a person produced belongs to him.
Simple, easily observed information belongs to everyone. Like "it is raining outside" or "dogs bark", ect. But if I write a novel or a poem or a computer program that is "information" that would not exist without my efforts. It belongs to me.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 07:25 PM |
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Quote:
It belongs to me.
The ridiculousness of this statement is beyond belief.
nah, nevermind, I forgot I have sworn never to discuss anything with you again. My bad.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 24, 2011 07:28 PM |
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Tax evansion is only made possible by a poor tax law in the first place.
HOWEVER, pirating would only be a problem if every individual stopped buying the stuff they liked of what they pirated.
The current way it is are not troublesome.
Mainly because the real hardcore pirates who hoards and never buys anything are the people who also would never have bought anything if there was no piracy.
Corribus: Owning information would imply artifical scarcity. On the other hand, things such as property rights and similar is also artifical scarcity. So artifical scarcity is not a automatic "evil", but rather a concept that may or may not be useful.
However, the question one should ask instead are how benefitial would it be for a society for everything to be plagiarism, and a society where every single thought are owned. And where between the 2 extremes our "goal" is.
I think our goal is "entertainment" and "innovation", which means that the IP laws needs to be strict enough so that everyone at the least aknowledges where the innovation is from, but on the other hand also can innovate it.
For media it is funny, because most media requires tons of time and resource to make.
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Doomforge
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Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 07:29 PM |
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Quote:
Tax evansion is only made possible by a poor tax law in the first place.
HOWEVER, pirating would only be a problem if every individual stopped buying the stuff they liked of what they pirated.
The current way it is are not troublesome.
Mainly because the real hardcore pirates who hoards and never buys anything are the people who also would never have bought anything if there was no piracy.
Precisely.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 24, 2011 07:35 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 19:55, 24 Apr 2011.
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Quote:
@Bak
At what price point is it no longer "worth" pirating software?
Ten bucks for Serbia. Make it a localized version (doesn't work with music and movies though).
Let's say the average salary in Serbia is roughly $6,000. That's per year, yeah. Let's say the US average is $25,000. H6 will be $50. That means an American will pay 0.2% of his income, but a Serb will pay four times that. Now imagine the game actually costs $200 in the US.
Not trying to justify piracy or start a discussion, just putting things into perspective. Serbia is a small market, but I'd be surprised if they're not doing it in China and Russia.
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