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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 07:39 PM |
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Quote:
Tax evansion is only made possible by a poor tax law in the first place.
HOWEVER, pirating would only be a problem if every individual stopped buying the stuff they liked of what they pirated.
.
That's pretty ridiculous. Tax evasion is possible for the same reason than information piracy is possible - you cannot prohibit it, law or not.
And it seems you don't understand that pirates/evaders live off of those who pay. They are essentially parasites.
Lastly, the point that people who use pirated stuff wouldn't buy it anyway is sheer nonsense - they need hardware to use it, and they have to either steal it or buy it. You need a PC for play PC games...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 07:41 PM |
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A couple of scenarios for all anti-pirates.
First, "copyright" idiocy. So if I buy a music cd, everyone in my house that has NOT bought it should run out of the building covering their ears everytime I put it on?
If not, why on earth 10+ people are allowed to listen to it everytime from a single license copy?
What if my neighbor turns the music really loud and I can hear whatever an artist "owns" for free? What if I go to his place and ask him to turn it on so I can listen for free? Does that make me a thief? Does that make the music conditionally free? Does that make "1 person, 1 copy" a fraud?
What if I pirated the game, then wrote a review praising it, which actually convinced several people not aware of the product's existence to get it (some paid for it). That way, for a single "pirated" copy, they got, say, 3-4 sold ones.
Scenario with no piracy: I don't give a flying **** about their game, and the people above are oblivious to it. 0 sold copies to us.
Which is more beneficial? What kind of "thievery" actually brings profit to the owner?
The logical idiocies behind "copyrights" are plentiful. The biggest one obviously is calculating games that are not sold as "potential profit" if the pirates would be gone. It's naive to the extreme.
Quote:
Lastly, the point that people who use pirated stuff wouldn't buy it anyway is sheer nonsense - they need hardware to use it, and they have to either steal it or buy it. You need a PC for play PC games...
Seriously, try to think next time what the poster meant... it obviously was about what-can-be-copied only, not hardware or anything like that.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 24, 2011 08:10 PM |
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Doomforge is wise 
And he is indeed correct.
Quote:
Quote:
Tax evansion is only made possible by a poor tax law in the first place.
HOWEVER, pirating would only be a problem if every individual stopped buying the stuff they liked of what they pirated.
.
That's pretty ridiculous. Tax evasion is possible for the same reason than information piracy is possible - you cannot prohibit it, law or not.
And it seems you don't understand that pirates/evaders live off of those who pay. They are essentially parasites.
Lets start with problem 1 about tax evansion: Economics is a closed system, and besides direct cash payment every single penny you earn is tracable. The only thing that is not tracable is coin, if they are not serialized.
You can trace each single coin back to where it was printed, and handed out.
Which means that every single penny you use, is taxable. Even undertable payments is traceable, because transactions are noted down.
Besides, could you please define "tax evansion" so that we do not run into a cultural wall?
Quote:
Lastly, the point that people who use pirated stuff wouldn't buy it anyway is sheer nonsense - they need hardware to use it, and they have to either steal it or buy it. You need a PC for play PC games...
Then debunk it, for it is a bold claim.
You need a computer for a lot of things, there is also quite the chance that the pirates computer was aquired through work too.
Besides, you also need a computer for email, IM, reading your favorite blogs, etc. At some point a compute seems like a reasonable purchase, just like cloths or food, except you need food and cloths are socially required.
Besides, there exists purists who never buy anything, eat poor food, and leave themself to death with a ludicrus bank account too.
Besides, they only pirate it because it is easy.
Don't tell me that you never killed time randomly by doing random stuff? Because that is why they pirate
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 08:12 PM |
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Quote:
bla
Read: Something I have an interest in can be obtained for free and since I'm a greedy snow I take the chance, since that leaves me money enough to buy things I couldn't afford otherwise.
To justify that I'll start to bring up every silly point I can think of, because I īdon't want to vfeel morally inferior.
Quote:
Seriously, try to think next time what the poster meant... it obviously was about what-can-be-copied only, not hardware or anything like that.
You'd do good to heed your own advice - you had the money for the hardware, didn't you? If you had THAT money, you HAVE money. And why would games work differently than cars? With cars, when you have no money you go for old, used ones... Why not with games as well?
EDIT: del_diablo, I find your points too childish to bother with an answer. The same things that apply for Doomforge apply for you as well.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 24, 2011 08:18 PM |
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Quote:
you had the money for the hardware, didn't you? If you had THAT money, you HAVE money.
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And why would games work differently than cars?
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I find your points too childish to bother with an answer.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 24, 2011 08:29 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 20:30, 24 Apr 2011.
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Dilemma #8.1
Would you download a car?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 24, 2011 08:37 PM |
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@Bak
I assume you do understand what would happen if everyone pirated software. Right?
As for the anti-piracy folks, I'd like to ask: do you have a problem borrowing a legally-purchased version of a game from a friend? What about making a copy of a legally-purchased version of a game for your use?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 08:42 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 20:43, 24 Apr 2011.
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yeah, quantomas would develop H6 all by himself for free and make it faster and better than the whole blackhole team
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 24, 2011 08:58 PM |
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Quote:
Dilemma #8.1
Would you download a car?
Sure, but if I could do that, the economy we have today would not have existed.
So if I could just download a car, and then it assembles itself without really the need of anything, I sort of wonder what money would be worth.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 09:44 PM |
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Quote:
@Bak
I assume you do understand what would happen if everyone pirated software. Right?
As for the anti-piracy folks, I'd like to ask: do you have a problem borrowing a legally-purchased version of a game from a friend? What about making a copy of a legally-purchased version of a game for your use?
What would be wrong with that? Case 1 means that number of copies has not been changed, while case 2 means the number of users has not been changed.
Let me repeat that the real problem isn't the DOWNloading, but the UPloading - it's comparable with counterfeiting money and distribute it freely, copying books and distributing them and so on. Even though it's up to everyone to download or not as well. In the end people have no other reason to download stuff than simple greed.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 24, 2011 09:49 PM |
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Quote:
As for the anti-piracy folks, I'd like to ask: do you have a problem borrowing a legally-purchased version of a game from a friend? What about making a copy of a legally-purchased version of a game for your use?
Well, at one person scale, it shows insignificant, but you already gave the answer in your previous question: what if everyone does it?
As for pro-pirates folks, please don't make you look ridiculous. Download as much as you can, but don't come with pro-arguments or morale justifications, because it is just silly. Do it quiet and keep it for yourself.
One person's work is worth money, because money is today the value defining quality. Does not matter if it is a car, a painting, a music work, or a new computer. As concept it is same: time spent on. Just because there is a way to own it free does not mean you should or it is right to do so. Everyone is convinced that his insignificant pirate behavior does not have any impact on the economy, but at a large scale, if everyone acted in your way, it would.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 24, 2011 10:00 PM |
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Quote:
As most of them are fully aware of the differences between piracy and stealing
Wait a moment here and hold on to your panties. Are you saying that piracy is not thivery? Well hot diggity! I have apparently lost all incitament to ever be a pirate, ... then!
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money is today the value defining quality.
This made me giggle! You sound so old!
...
Just like this topic. I already know all you peoples opinions on this subject, and if you look a little, you'll find mine.
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Living time backwards
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Carcity
Supreme Hero
Blind Sage
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posted April 24, 2011 11:02 PM |
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I would take the disc, and if I really enjoyed the game and deemed it to be worth the money, I'd buy it.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 24, 2011 11:12 PM |
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DF: In Belgium there's a company called SABAM. They'll fine you, if you play music in public places or don't give them money to hire rights to play music at parties or movies at events, etc. Just FYI.
Yeah, it's retarded, but these laws exist, so you're not bringing fictive situations. Piracy is punished severely.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 24, 2011 11:22 PM |
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Quote:
DF: In Belgium there's a company called SABAM. They'll fine you, if you play music in public places or don't give them money to hire rights to play music at parties or movies at events, etc. Just FYI.
Yeah, it's retarded, but these laws exist. Piracy is punished severely.
It's almost like terrorism. Do they fine you for singing their song in public, too?
@JJ: That's why I didn't want to have this conversation with you. It always ends up messy, and besides, I think you really posted some stupid lines there (Baklava has quoted them with his usual sniper-eye precision  "why would games work differently from cars" - LOL. Cars can be copied... yeah right. )
"greedy" arguments just make me laugh. Yeah, sure, I'm so greedy, so I'm getting a game to satisfy my greed ... logic? none. Are you sure you're even using the correct work for what you imply here? Greed would refer to some form of financial gain, which is obviously absent here. No, I'm not even "gaining" that 50$ I would spend on the game... because I would not buy the game anyways.
I don't need petty arguments to not feel morally inferior because I feel ok about it whatever you may say. I don't need to publically write my apology for being a pirate. I simply don't see anything bad about it, and if you do, well, tough luck.
Quote:
You'd do good to heed your own advice - you had the money for the hardware, didn't you? If you had THAT money, you HAVE money.
Why do you NEVER ask instead of guessing? You wouldn't be wrong so often.
No, I did not had the money for the hardware, I got it as gift.
Ask next time before assuming something.
Since we're going nowhere with our arguments anyway, I suggest we end this peacefully before it gets really hard core, like last time. Even though it may not seem like it, I respect your points, and I don't really care whether you respect mine. Happy easter JJ.
To adress Salamandre's point:
Quote:
One person's work is worth money, because money is today the value defining quality. Does not matter if it is a car, a painting, a music work, or a new computer. As concept it is same: time spent on. Just because there is a way to own it free does not mean you should or it is right to do so. Everyone is convinced that his insignificant pirate behavior does not have any impact on the economy, but at a large scale, if everyone acted in your way, it would.
First of all "if everyone" argument sucks. Because it leads to stupid exaggerations like: if everyone didn't have children, humanity would die out, so not having children is a crime because it leads to end of humanity.
Or alike.
Second, I really don't see a problem when there's no difference between taking an action and not taking an action. If I can take an action between downloading a game and not downloading the game (buying it is usually out of question), the result is actually exactly the same in both situations: no money for the creator, and the only difference is ME : me getting or not getting the game... so why to pick the worse option? To feel morally superior or something? For an actual "thievery", there's always a loss for someone, when you decide to take something away, however making an exact copy doesn't make the original product go away. And "denying profit", as explained numerous times, is ridiculous because either way THERE WILL BE NO PROFIT, PERIOD.
Third: Time is money. Okay. So, either the producer gets no money because I don't want his overpriced 10 hours of fun, or he gets no money because I downloaded it. I don't see how it's relevant to your point because he gets no money anyway. Me getting the game may actually end up with me praising the game and attracting customers to it, so it's actually better for me to see it rather than not.
For those feeling I'm a leech and stuff - well folks, life is brutal, live with it.
Either way, I'm out of the "piracy" discussion in this topic.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted April 24, 2011 11:26 PM |
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Well, singing isn't allowed on public transportation, if you mean that.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 24, 2011 11:44 PM |
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Quote:
I assume you do understand what would happen if everyone pirated software. Right?
When regarded in the context of classical microeconomics which information goods are (more or less artificially, like I tried to explain) still being confined into, of course it'd be a complete failure. Price ceiling set to zero, everything becomes deadweight loss, etcetc. So I admit that, no matter how well I define and clarify to myself what's wrong with the current system - and most of the people supporting it - I'm still not sure what to replace it with.
But we've all got to believe in something, right? I believe in finding a solution that would create some kind of an equilibrium between the nature of information as a good, and the incentive to produce it. The current system almost completely shuns said nature to maximize said incentive, and I don't like it. Unchecked piracy embraces the nature, while keeping a pretty nihilistic attitude toward the incentive (at least the monetary one, which is - whether we like it or not - still the most relevant), and I don't quite like that either. Most don't care and just pirate here and there and then go "well piracy would suck if everyone was doing it, but what ya gonna do". And that's probably where I'm gonna end up after everything else fails.
But when I'm a grumpy fat self-loathing piece of crap sitting on a couch and being fed virtual reality, many years from now, won't I be willing to trade all the days, from this day to that, for once chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell the self-righteous quasi-ethical capitalists,
THAT THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES
BUT THEY WILL NEVER TAKE
OUR FREEDOM!
God I never get tired of that one.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted April 24, 2011 11:48 PM |
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Also what Doomforge said. Listen to that guy. He's admirable and undefeatable for a reason.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 25, 2011 12:20 AM |
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One individual pirate isn't going to have a noticeable impact on sales, but piracy is of relatively high benefit to the individual pirate, so the way that works out is rather obvious. Of course, if everyone pirated, then the good would stop being produced, assuming that the producer is making money solely from sales. Then, you're worse off even if you're a pirate, because you have nothing to pirate. So it seems to me there are two solutions:
1. If you're a pirate, you should support anti-piracy laws that are strong enough to discourage enough people from piracy to keep the producer in business, but not strong enough to catch you or stop you from pirating.
2. If you're a producer, there's not much you can do to stop piracy, so you should look for other sources of revenue.
It's fine to talk about whether it's moral to pirate, but it's a moot point. People will pirate unless there's a big change (for the worse) in how the Internet operates. How to deal with that is a more important question.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted April 25, 2011 01:04 AM |
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Quote:
For those feeling I'm a leech and stuff - well folks, life is brutal, live with it.
Hypocritical statement. In this case, it has nothing with hard life, but with people choices and maturity. It is not like you died of starvation if you could not get the last song/movie/game.
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This thread is pages long: 
