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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted August 09, 2010 10:29 AM |
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One thing to keep in mind is that virtually ALL buildings of any significance get challenged. PR is usually the key to getting ANY building built. And even many lesser buildings like houses get challenged. People keep talking as if there's a right to build a building, but there's not. Buildings are built with permission only.
Just because individuals own or construct the building doesn't mean that individual rights are the only thing at issue. Rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion are about individual rights. But a building doesn't fit into that concept. A building is part of a community and it's treated as such. It is always part of the overall community, and cannot be separated from that community. Individual rights concern the activities of people inside a build, or on the property, but they do not concern the building itself which is part of the larger community.
Everyone within the community has a stake in what gets built. And in just about any community there WILL be people who contest a building no matter what it is. And there will be some people who don't want ANY buildings to be built (what is commonly known as a zero growth policy).
Whether it's a mosque, a church, a mall, a Wal-Mart, or anything else, they must sell it to the public. They might need public support for the permit process itself. But they also need it to keep good will within the community. They are not only part of the community in the sense of aesthetics, architecture, traffic patterns, noise and support such as police and fire departments. They are also a part of the community as neighbors within a society. A company such as Wal-Mart will spend a lot of money on the PR campaign, both before the approval process and afterwards in order to maintain continued good will. They are not required to do that, but it's just a good idea.
Wrapping this debate around freedom of religion is only partly accurate. First, it's not really a mosque, it's a community center which happens to have something like a mosque inside. Second, they are free to practice their religion, and practice on their own property. But they are NOT free to build any building they want. By their own claims it's not a mosque, and not a place primarily used for worship. It's a community center. Not building it does not interfere with the practice or worship of their religion.
There are many other mosques and other Islamic related facilities in the area. This appears to be nothing more than a project of opportunity. In other words, they basically saw the opportunity to buy the property at a good price, and thought it might be nice to build the place. It's not needed for the practice of their religion, and by their own admission that's not the intended purpose. I just don't see how denying a building permit can be considered restricting their practice of religion.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 09, 2010 10:51 AM |
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That is of course correct - they need a building permit.
However, if the building is NOT permitted, the permit must be rejected with a reasoning that is in line with existing laws, rules and regulations, not just because a couple of people don't want it there.
Take for example high-security psycho-clinics for heavy criminals considered mentally ill. If it was for public opinion, there would be no such facilities anywhere, because no one wants to live in the "vicinity" of those institutions.
"It would piss off some people" is no valid reasoning, obviously.
"We don't want no snowing muslims here", is no valid reasoning either.
Note, that there were muslims killed there as well.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted August 09, 2010 01:20 PM |
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Quote:
It's not a matter of who DOES care, but who SHOULD care. And the people who want to build the mosque should care. And if they don't care and build it anyway, the message they are sending is that they give a **** what the majority of people think.
SHOULD they care about what the majority of people think? I don't think they do, and considering the majority's average level of intelligence, I think they are right not to care.
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And that's a real good way to piss off a hell of a lot of people.
And who gives a snow?  It's not like Americans will revolt or anything, lol!
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No, it would have been foolish for the US not to engage the terrorists outside of America. The US has kept the terrorists busy fighting for survival so they've had less time and resources to plot attacks on America.
And quoted for more lol.
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Remember also that at least 10% of all mosques in the US preach jihad.
And how is that different from the snowloads of christian sects? Oh wait, it's different because those sects "aren't Christian", right?
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It is silly to say that acknowledging that radical Islam is the cause for most terrorist attacks against the US is making Islam into a scapegoat.
It is silly to think the most powerful country in the world wouldn't have been capable of intercepting those attacks had they wanted to.
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For example loony judges made the murder of unborn children legal but that does not mean that a woman should murder her unborn child.
Correction: Embryo/Fetus, not "unborn child".
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No, but it certainly seems to me that you enjoy making false statements about Christians.
One should note that whenever someone who claims to be a Christian does something wrong all the Christian organizations denounce the act.
It is important that the "ground zero" cleric refuses to denounce the terrorist organization HAMAS.
False comparisson.
You're comparing a rotten apple to the masses of "good" christian organisations rather than the masses of "good" islamic organisation. Why?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 09, 2010 03:41 PM |
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Quote:
However, if the building is NOT permitted, the permit must be rejected with a reasoning that is in line with existing laws, rules and regulations, not just because a couple of people don't want it there.
This isn't 100% true. A real world example that doesn't involve religion is the construction of Walmarts in and around Chicago. Generally speaking when Walmart proposes to build new stores, the surrounding communities are usually against the idea (decreased property values, increased traffic, etc.), whereas the local governments are generally in favor (influx of jobs, taxes and money). It's always a fight between the people, who have a right to say what kinds of buildings and businesses that exist in their communities and the local government, which must balance what the local people want and what the government could gain by allowing Walmart to build. As far as I know there are no laws which guide the government body as to whether they have to allow or forbid the building of Walmarts. It's completely up to the discretion of the local government officials and whether they want to potentially incur the wrath of the people who might then vote them out of office. Of course, what a government probably can't do is decide to not allow a building on the basis of racial, ethnic or religious discrimination, because that would most assuredly end up in the court system, and the people would probably lose. Nevertheless, governments will still listen to what people say and excuses that don't violate equal treatment of various religions can always be found. This business of a Mosque in NYC is only finding international ears because it is NYC and because this is where 9/11 happened. Similar situations happen all the time however in communities around the country. I can remember multiple occasions where someone has wanted to build a Mosque and the local (most Christian) community has been against it. Sometimes the permits are issued. Sometimes they are not. But I think to come out and declare that people don't have any right to collectively say what kinds of buildings - religious or otherwise - are constructed in their communities is not completely accurate. Nothing exists in a vaccuum - if I'm a property owner and somebody wants to build something across the street from me that's going to drop my property value by 25%, then you can bet your ass that I'm going to fight against it and I have every right to stand up for my economic livelihood.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 09, 2010 04:18 PM |
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have of course no idea how that is ruled in the US, but here as a rule, this is decided already when buying the grounds.
For the grounds - the bare land - there has to be designated whether it is land for building and so on or not.
That is, if YOU buy the premises you want to build a house upon (or buy an already built house) you can access the, umm, the office, where all those ground is registered and look it up - for example, there exist rules and regulations how HGH a new house can be built and so on (if any).
Moreover, there are regulations BEFOREHAND, whether certain industries can be built in an area.
Protests are of course always possible - for example when highways are built -, which WILL devaluate your property, but tough luck, since it is in the interest of the community, except if you can claim destruction of enviromentally important areas.
SOCIAL institutions can of course be protested against, when they are planned in areas without any connection to the purpose. For example, a WHITE community centre in a BLACK neighborhood makes no sense and wouldn't get a building permit - if ever tried to build.
Religious stuff, however... correct me, if I'm wrong but GZ is a BUSINESS region of NY, right, which means it is NEUTRAL in all respects, since business areas have no religious or racial restrictions that could be claimed without discrimination. Churches and so on are a it like hospitals in the respect - the bigger they are, the more central and easily accessible they should be, so that people from farther away can get there.
The only restriction might be vice business.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2010 01:21 AM |
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Corribus:
And that is why the law is not devoted enough to protecting individual freedom and property rights. Ideally, if someone owned property and wanted to build a Wal-Mart there, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2010 06:02 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:05, 10 Aug 2010.
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most people seem to agree to not put all muslims in the same bag than terrorists, but here in France, for example, the government is quite intolerant toward them.
for example, in airports, people who are muslims (or look like they are) are a primary target for controls.
when there are problems somewhere, the blame is usually put on non-native french people (like muslims, romanians, etc...) they are talking about making laws specifically for those people, so that they can get rid of them as soon as they do even the tiniest mistake.
they want to forbid the complete veil and punish women wearing it, because criminals and terrorists might use the veil to hide their identity, and they also say they do it for the freedom of women
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JollyJoker
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posted August 10, 2010 07:44 PM |
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Dangit, you can't even be a decent criminal today in your own country - these immigrants are hijacking all the good jobs out there.
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Fauch
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2010 07:54 PM |
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maybe the reason is they only talk about muslims?
like elodin and his report from FBI, they could just invent any kind of bullsnow
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted August 10, 2010 08:12 PM |
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Slapping your wife around is illegal
Constantly telling your wife she's a piece of crap is illegal
Raping your wife is illegal
Kidnapping is illegal
Forced arranged marriages are illegal and amounts to repeated rape for the rest of her life
Arranged marriages through coercion and degradation is illegal
Forbidding your wife or daughter education is illegal
Forbidding your wife to work is illegal
Forbidding your adult daughter or sister from dating is illegal
Forbidding your adult daughter or sister from doing ANYTHING is illegal
Forcing your daughter to put on makeup, dress "appropriately" and parade around in front of prospective husbands like she's a horse for sale is illegal
Tying a woman to a chair as punishment is illegal
Whoops, I almost forgot. We must be tolerant of immigrants from other cultures and religions....never mind.
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted August 10, 2010 08:35 PM |
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It is not about all immigration, but against huge masses of uneducated people coming from North Africa, always ready to get everything by force or by "alah akbar, you are a racist!" arguments.
There are hundreds of thousand chinese immigrants in France, however they are acting as anyone, no matter the race or color. Things got out of hand, and now strict and repressive laws will have to be created. I don't know any other country which will allow them so much freedom and financial aid as France did, and all they say in return is f..ck you all. Literally.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted August 10, 2010 08:36 PM |
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and Binabik... which culture and religion does this happen in, specifically?
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mvassilev
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posted August 10, 2010 09:13 PM |
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Binabik has a point. Current Muslim culture is inferior to Western culture, not to mention oppressive.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Keksimaton
Promising
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Talk to the hand
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posted August 10, 2010 09:35 PM |
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The western world is not without its fair share of muslims. A more correct comparison would be between christian culture and muslim culture. Some muslim women wear a cowl where as some christian women wear a band t-shirt of some christian rock music band.
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Binabik
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Legendary Hero
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posted August 10, 2010 09:54 PM |
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I'm not sure if you can separate Islamic and Middle Eastern cultures. They are very intertwined. I guess I should also add Afghanistan and Pakistan since I don't think they are technically considered Middle East and they are far worse than many Middle East countries in regards to the way they treat women. I also don't know much about countries like Indonesia which has a high Muslim population, but are in a different geographical area and presumably have a very different culture. Bottom line is that I don't know how much is religion, and how much is local culture and values.
Regardless, when people emigrate they bring their culture and values with them. It's not as if they emigrate to England or the US or France and suddenly are culturally British or American or French. As Salamandre pointed out, immigrants from places like China (and most other areas) just seem to better adapt to the change. You can't expect people to suddenly change their culture and values when they move, but you CAN expect them to at least obey the law. Difference in culture are interesting, but slapping around women or preventing them from getting an education is just not appropriate in the west, it's just plain illegal, and it's common.
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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted August 10, 2010 10:11 PM |
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well, Mvass? if you had a muslim man who treated his wife fairly and his children kindly, but lives in a middle eastern country, say, lebannon, would he be in western culture, or muslim culture.
the fact of the matter is, that there are dicks in every culture, there are people who will beat and rape their wives, and repeatedly dominate their family, it is not a strictly muslim thing. arranged marriages are just as privilant in the west as they are in muslim countries, and often the family will consult their daughter on a suitor before making the arrangements. It is only when you get nutjob sects, like Wahabism, which is practicied in Saudi arabia, do you get this backward way of thinking, and inevitably the oppression of women.
take for example, the burqa. the Qu'ran does not teach specifically that women are supposed to have this on, only that they should cover their heads, and considering the area that we are talking about, that's not a bad idea. but it's when fundementalcases begin to impose bulls**t and back it up using a religious text then we have problems. the Qu'ran also teaches that once peace is an opportunity, a muslim shall stop fighting, and agree terms immediately, as well as that if a muslim ever breaks his vows and oaths or his families oaths and vows, then he is no longer a muslim.
early Islamic law, not the Qu'ran specifically, but the early laws for the first Islamic empire, speaks that a woman is worth an equal of a man, owns half of whatever her husband owns, may inherit land form her family if male heirs are not available, and similarly, go to war and to work if the husband is dead. if the husband divorces her (which you are allowed to do in islamic law), then the wives (because you are allowed more than one) must be given equal proportion to the husband and to each other. and as I mentioned in a previous thread, this ended with a muslim queen getting half of turkey into the bargain.
but that is all in the past. but considering that the Osama Bin Laden broke the Bin laden's agreement with america to operate with them, in attacking them, He can no longer be considered a muslim, and thus, no longer a muslim extremist...
so where's your F**king problem?
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Vlaad
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ghost of the past
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posted August 10, 2010 10:15 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 18:56, 12 Aug 2010.
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Quote:
Western culture
Laws on a number of issues (such as death penalty, same-sex marriage, gay sex, euthanasia, public indecency, prostitution etc) differ in various Western countries, some being rather backward. Guess what the US law says about all those.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted August 10, 2010 10:19 PM |
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Not to mention the fact that (fundamental) Christian and Jewish culture sufferd (and for the fundamental part) still suffers under the same kinds of problem.
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Binabik
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Legendary Hero
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posted August 10, 2010 10:23 PM |
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@Vladd and JJ both. Your posts are completely irrelevant to what I said.
Unless you are saying that because the US allows the death penalty that it's ok to abuse women?
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Vlaad
Admirable
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ghost of the past
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posted August 10, 2010 10:32 PM |
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I replied to Mvass, not you.
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