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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 06, 2010 10:48 AM |
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Ok people, keep the person comments to yourself. Clean up your posts if they are pretty much just people bashing. No place here.
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ohforfsake
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posted August 06, 2010 11:11 AM |
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This is more obvious when you phrase it differently and ask "why would it matter that a guy calls for Jihad? He can call as much as he wants, who cares? It's just PROPAGANDA in a desperate attempt to spread the unrest, get support and so on." And here I already answered. What depseprate propaganda ? Are you denying here that 9/11 happened (because people followed that "desperate" propaganda) ? Are you denying this now ? Either you believe that 9/11 happened, or you don't; which one is it ? (Of course you can also know that 9/11 happened, or you can also know that something happened at an area called Ground Zero, but let's not go into that; it is just technical.) So, are you denying that 9/11 happened ?
I think either you or I misunderstand JJ here. That propaganda, as I read it, is the propaganda of trying to create a islam vs. america and their supporters type of war [which you get when saying in stead of, "I did X", then "I did X in the name of Y"], not something that has anything to do with if the events actually happened. The point is, I believe, that it makes no difference what the excuse (in what name they did something) is, so because they try to draw other people into it, by using their name, these other people shouldn't suffer for it [which is what I call grouping of people, like grouping people of different skin colour, etc.].
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What ? Are you saying that 9/11 was the result of hiring some people to attack the US in the name of [something that someone wanted to discredit] ? Do you have information that we do not JJ ? Please, share this piece of information.
I think the point is, that the effect we see today, if they're not allowed to build a mosque, is exactly that, if you do something and say it's in the name of Y, Y is getting punished for it, eventhough Y have nothing to do with it (here in the case of the mosque).
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These guys do not claim that they did it in somebody else's name. The guys claimed that they had religious obligation to go on a war.
Which I understand as they claimed it in the name of religion (religion was their excuse)
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They have said this before the attacks, right after the attacks, and they are still in that mode. It is amazing that you don't see anything hostile or at least suspicious in the way many-many muslims interpret the word "jihad".
But is it relevant? Should we not only act against those who actually do harm, and not those who think about it? I mean, everyone should be free to be a nazi, or hating black people, or whatever, as long as they don't put force on someone else. It's not the belief that's the problem, it's the actual actions that follow with the belief, and if those actions aren't there, it's oppressing to act against these people, no matter how stupid they may be.
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Are you now claiming that the guys who were on the planes did not believe in anything when they flew the airplanes straight to the towers ? Or is it because someone "funded" them and they will take the money with them, well ... , in after-life ?  Who is claiming what now ? JJ, what are you saying ?
They most likely did it for the exact reasons they stated. However like written just above, focus on the people who do the wrong actions, not those with the wrong thoughts. The point is, that their reasoning, or excuse, or whatever one wants to call it, is the same as someone elses, does not mean they're should be threated the same way. These people who want to build a mosque had nothing to do with it (at least until proven otherwise) and therefore, it doesn't matter if the terrorists found inspiration in the exact same book as they use. It'd be like putting all christains in one group. All black people in one group. Or the same pair of shoes I think it's called?
The main point is, the reasoning of the terrorists don't matter when someone who'd nothing to do with said attack wants to build on the ground.
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Coming back to the previous post, you are making the statement "EVERYONE can do EVERYTHING in the name of EVERYTHING, that doesn't have any meaning." Errmm, ... what ? Does the word "laws" ring any bell ? You are taking this back, right ?
I don't understand how laws is related to this. As reality now is as of today, you can do some actions and these have consequneces. The consequences do not change no matter in what name you do what you do (i.e. your excuse/reasoning), so there shouldn't be extra consequences for those who you're claiming to do it in the name of.
I hope this helped with the confusion.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 06, 2010 12:35 PM |
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No JJ, that's not all. You haven't answered the majority of questions above.
The rest doesn't matter, is repetitive, irrelevant, a misunderstang or answered indirectly with that post.
If I, as a male, have a "problem" with women, and I find a couple of others - who maybe are just sick or whatever -, and our gang haunts a neighborhood one night, raping half a dozen women, and we issue an official statement, like, "too long females now have tried to turn the natural order of things upside down, they must learn again where their natural place is, after all males are dominatng females, males are the penetrators and females are the penetrated, so females should be submissive... blablabla" - would you expect now that suddeny all men would follow their example, because men are prone to live out their aggressive sex drive or whatever?
I tell you, WHEN you would expect that: if that was your secret fear, if that the way you would see men anyway: animals who are slaves to their oversized sex drive who want nothing more than dominate, control and subdue women. In short, that men were born and natural rapers.
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 06, 2010 12:45 PM |
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In a way I can see JJ's point. The religion is NOT the problem. It is the people in the religion that believe when somebody else says "Follow me, I know the only right way." that is the problem. As often or not, that person is just doing it for their POLITICAL agenda, not religious agenda. Thus the Crusades and the like.
Yes, a lot of time people will distract from more serious issues with something. It has happened throughout time.
The average Muslims are no more responsible for 9/11 then the average Christian is for the Crusade or Salem Witch Trials.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 06, 2010 01:24 PM |
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Well, the point aims in a slightly different direction.
If the Pope says, that condoms are sin, that has far-reaching consequences and you can expect that a lot of believers will adopt that opinion and react accordingly. It doesn't matter, whether the Pope is actually interpreting his religion that way or whether he has an ulterior motive for it.
However, if some simple Catholic moves before a mike and raves about about how sinful condoms are, it's of no relevance as long as the official authorities don't sign that.
With the Islam that's different, though, since there are different directions of that religion and no single leaders, at least not with the Sunnits (don't know for the rest), since the Caliphat has been abolished.
The ulemas are the authorities now, the scholars of the script, which means, that a "jihad" could basically happen only if all or at least most of them would agree, which isn't the case.
It may happen that in a local region a jihadist may come to power, but that's more like a sect, then, splintering off on an aggressive way.
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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dimis
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posted August 06, 2010 01:41 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 14:19, 06 Aug 2010.
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This is funny tiring. Please take some time and answer the questions.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 06, 2010 02:25 PM |
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blabla...JJ, you are ask "why would it matter that a guy calls for Jihad? He can call as much as he wants, who cares? It's just PROPAGANDA in a desperate attempt to spread the unrest, get support and so on." And here I already answered. What desperate propaganda ? Are you denying here that 9/11 happened (because people followed that "desperate" propaganda)? Are you denying this now?
I haven't got the slightest clue what you are talking about. The guys who did 9/11 - al quaida - are those who propagate the idea that this has all a very deep religious meaning - however they have no religious authority whatsoever. What the hell is so difficult to understand about it? Bin Laden has quite personal grudges with the US, he may see the US in a certain way and he has the money - it's HIS fight, and he tries to find followers and support laiming religious nonsense to ceate urther unrest . But he is no religiously relevant person.
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blabla... So, are you denying that 9/11 happened ?
Not at all. The train of thought letting you end at this question is nonsensical.
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blabla... what does "jihad" mean ?
Ask any of the uncounted ulemaa, imams and scholars of the different muslim directions, because THEY are the ones who interpretthe scriptures.
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blabla... You are calling my statement "Because in the end, all the terrorists on 9/11 were muslims and did what they did in the name of some sort of "jihad"." propaganda of the terrorists in which I and the US fell for. Same question as before; is the statement not true ? Simple question, yes or no ? Where do you see the propaganda?
They can call it jihad the same way than I could call an attack on Lebanon a crusade. Calling it jihad is
excuse and propaganda, even if they themslves believe in it, because they have no authority in religious things.
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blabla.. What ? Are you saying that 9/11 was the result of hiring some people to attack the US in the name of [something that someone wanted to discredit] ? Do you have information that we do not JJ ? Please, share this piece of information.
I answered that.
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blabla...
These guys do not claim that they did it in somebody else's name. The guys claimed that they had religious obligation to go on a war. They have said this before the attacks, right after the attacks, and they are still in that mode.
Who cares what some idiots CLAIM?
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It is amazing that you don't see anything hostile or at least suspicious in the way many-many muslims interpret the word "jihad".
Oh? Is that a fact? Of course you can support that claim, can you?
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What is even more surprising is that you call this a "claim"! Seriously, was it just a "claim" ? Let me understand once again. Are you now claiming that the guys who were on the planes did not believe in anything when they flew the airplanes straight to the towers ?
Since when does it matter what people believe why they kill? The hospitals are full of people claiming someone made them do it. FACT is, we have no clue what they actually believe or not believe - and I don't think it's relevant or the case: since they have no religious authority it doesn't matter. See how repetitive this is?
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Or is it because someone "funded" them and they will take the money with them, well ... , in after-life ? Who is claiming what now ? JJ, what are you saying ?
I didn't say anything like that - you should know what "funded" means and what I meant. If you want to discuss suicide assassins and their motives, try earnestly.
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Coming back to the previous post, you are making the statement "EVERYONE can do EVERYTHING in the name of EVERYTHING, that doesn't have any meaning." Errmm, ... what ? Does the word "laws" ring any bell ? You are taking this back, right ?
I wonder whether you want to kid me? Does the word "illegal" rings a bell? If you intend to use illegal means to reach your goals, keeing or not to the law stops being an issue, I'd wager.
Satisfied now?
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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dimis
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posted August 06, 2010 02:30 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 14:47, 06 Aug 2010.
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Yes, although you didn't answer everything. But I will let others comment on these first.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 06, 2010 02:48 PM |
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I did. What do you think I didn't answer?
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dimis
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posted August 06, 2010 02:51 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 15:30, 06 Aug 2010.
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Let's see what other say on these. OhForf for example, gave some explanations above, to which I will come.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 06, 2010 03:07 PM |
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Could you please drop that condescending lecturing tone, please, and answer a simple question yourself, for a change? WHAT did I not answer?
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dimis
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posted August 06, 2010 03:12 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 15:13, 06 Aug 2010.
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What condescending JJ ? Earlier in the thread you were asking me questions and I was answering, and in fact you ended up twice to the same question from different routes.
So no, I am not answering yet. I want to see what others believe or what are their comments.
Simple as that. If I am ruining your fun of series-posting I apologize. I can acknowledge that one. But I don't think I am doing anything more than that.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 06, 2010 03:34 PM |
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You claimed I didn't answer everything.
I said, I did, and asked you to name the questions I didn't answer. Now you suddenly don't want to tell what I didn't answer (so I can answer them as well)?
I've no problem that you don't anwer my post yet - I have a problem, though, when you make a claim (not answering everything), and when asked to say which, you come up with "patience, let's answer to the others first". In that case you could have just saved your comment (you didn't answer everything) and start your answering post with it.
THAT is condescending for me. And it's lecturing as well - I wouldn't dream of telling you how and in which order you answer posts, if you answer them at all, but if you make a claim I can expect a back-up, especially when it's something as simple as, you didn't do X.
And your last post is doing it again, assuming something about me - you can see I have only 20 posts a day, so you can spare the crap.
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 06, 2010 03:35 PM |
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Quote:
If the Pope says, that condoms are sin, that has far-reaching consequences and you can expect that a lot of believers will adopt that opinion and react accordingly. It doesn't matter, whether the Pope is actually interpreting his religion that way or whether he has an ulterior motive for it.
Kind of like how Pope John Paul II wiped Purgatory off the map.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 06, 2010 04:55 PM |
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... And the next one put it on again.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 06, 2010 05:11 PM |
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Purgatory exists on Tuesday's, Wednesday's and on all-you-can-eat taco Friday's.
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dimis
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posted August 06, 2010 05:53 PM |
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Oh, blizzardboy ... Welcome back to your thread!
Would you mind telling us if we have been off-topic ?
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ohforfsake
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posted August 06, 2010 06:17 PM |
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I think the idea of the thread was to discuss if it's justifiable to investigate someone, simply because they do something that is not liked (not illegal).
Which then turned into a discussion if they even should be allowed to build at the place.
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dimis
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posted August 06, 2010 06:55 PM |
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I don't think you are getting it OhForf.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 06, 2010 08:19 PM |
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Don't ask me, ask the mods. I got bored by page 5.
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This thread is pages long: 
