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JollyJoker
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posted August 12, 2010 06:57 AM |
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Quote:
JJ:
But the point is that Arabic/Islamic culture says honour killings are okay in certain situations.
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There is no difference in demanding that girls may be covered from head-to-toe or whether they have to wear knee-long skirts and blouses insted of ripped belly-free tank-tops etc.
There's quite a difference. Burqas are oppression, and normal dress is to be taken seriously and not have lustful men drooling all over a girl.
Certain Western Cultures do that as well. "Vendetta" is an Italian word, and the Christian dominated cuiltures of, for example Southern Italy have adopted the same attitude. You know what the Old Testament of the Bible says, and some Christian cultures did take those rules quite seriously, the same way than fundamental muslims do.
The burqa as such has the same purpose than a modest dress. The problem is not the cloth as such - the problem is being forced to wear it or anything, and not only children or youths, but grown-ups as well. When forcing a grown-up woman into wearing certain clothing, it's the force, not the clothing.
Forbidding the burqa or any way to hide the face, is wrong. Forbidding to force those women to wear it, is right.
You just have to see that there are differentb standards of what is wrousing - we'd still be upset if women were around bare-breasted. Others are, when they are bare-faced.
The main difference is, that in our general society religion has lost a lot of meaning. Not many care what is written in the bible about how to behave publicly. 50 years ago the usual scenery of a Western city would have been untinkable.
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mvassilev
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posted August 12, 2010 07:19 AM |
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Quote:
Certain Western Cultures do that as well. "Vendetta" is an Italian word, and the Christian dominated cuiltures of, for example Southern Italy have adopted the same attitude. You know what the Old Testament of the Bible says, and some Christian cultures did take those rules quite seriously, the same way than fundamental muslims do.
It's not like that any more, though, and, in the West, no one except for the most fringe of loonies would suggest going back to those days. But not so with Muslims. Oppression is closer to the mainstream with them.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 12, 2010 08:09 AM |
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True. In muslimic countries (but extremely rarely in Western countries) "honor killings" happen. I read, it's estimated at about 5.000 worldwide per year.
You can attribute this to fundamental interpretation of and adherence to the muslimic religion. However, you can attribute a lot of really sicck stuff to fundamental Christians and their interpretation of the Christian religion as well. It's just that in Western countries religion has lost the hold on laws and jurisdiction. Society in general is a lot more tolerant.
That doesn't mean, the Christian fundamental doctrin doesn't kill people, though. Blood tranfusions and Jehovas's witnesses, the general attitude towards unmarried sex on one hand and contraception on the other, the attitude towards homosexuality... Christian fundamentals may not run around and kill certain "sinners", as a rule, but, but, but...
Anyway, I don't want to defend the muslim way of living - I just don't think it's worse than Jewish and Christian, when it comes to fundamentalism, and true, there may be more fundamentel Muslims than Christians. Or, differently phrased, there ARE still muslimic states, but there are no Christian states.
Fundamentalism is, after all, just a brand of fanatism.
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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted August 12, 2010 09:15 AM |
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@elodin:
Yes, I am not denying that the qu'ran does allow muslims to lie...
but only, and let me get this clear, ONLY if they are about to be killed because they are a muslim. if so, they are allowed to lie in order to protect themselves.
you see, Muslims, like all human beings, are equiped with something called self preservation, which is a curious little think that makes you realise that the angry mob coming to towards you, brandishing signs saying "Kill all muslims" or "Death to the *****" that they might not have the best of intentions. the Qu'ran made is possible for muslims to lie if this were the occasion, and only on this kind of occasion, so if a Muslim was asked "Well, do you oppose sharia law" and they lie then 1) they are going agianst the teachings of the Qu'ran and 2) are oath breakers, and as I have already explained, Oathbreakers are not one with Allah.
if you seriously doubt the virtue of muslims just because of this, then you need to doubt everyone on this, because everyone is prone to lieing, because deception is a human instinct.
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angelito
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posted August 12, 2010 12:12 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 12:14, 12 Aug 2010.
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I am pretty sure a true christian can never be provoked by such opinions, cause his belief is too strong
Well it's not provoking but it's not a particularily nice way of phrasing things is it now? I mean your double standards aren't anything new but that doesn't make them less annoying especially if you (rightfully) encourage others to keep stuff like that out of their posts. I understand where you're coming from and it's cool if you don't believe in a god and think the bible is bull**** just don't claim christianity is bull**** simply because the bible is nonsensical, outdated and open to interpretation at times.
Can you show me the part where I said the bible is bullsnow? I have never done that. So please stop your Police Commissioner behaviour which you show every now and then when you pop into a thread out of nothing and contribute nothing but attack the poster above you.
How about posting something usefull TO THE TOPIC instead of just criticizing others?
@ Elodin
I have already stated before, I am not american, so your laws and definitions are of no interest to me. In Germany, Ahteism is no religion.
Your logic is like: NOT cooking is some kind of cooking too. NOT singing is some kind of singing too....etc....
Fails badly...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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vahleeb
Hired Hero
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posted August 12, 2010 12:20 PM |
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Hi guys! Wow, what a thread I missed in the few days I've been away from HC. There hasn't been anything on topic in the last few posts, apparently either.
I wanna point out a few things that came to me while reading this.
@ohforh and in part JJ
You said something to this extent: That propaganda, as I read it, is the propaganda of trying to create a islam vs. america and their supporters type of war [which you get when saying in stead of, "I did X", then "I did X in the name of Y"], not something that has anything to do with if the events actually happened. The point is, I believe, that it makes no difference what the excuse (in what name they did something) is, so because they try to draw other people into it, by using their name, these other people shouldn't suffer for it [which is what I call grouping of people, like grouping people of different skin colour, etc.].
Here's the problem with that: you cannot say that Islam is not related with 9/11, and you cannot make the claim that since the guys that did the attacks were not religious leaders it shouldn't matter that they did it in the name of Islam. We need to think about the concept of binding, and one of the biggest catalyst in binding two unrelated concepts is the loss of human lives. 3000 human lives bound the concepts of 9/11 and Islam together because those lives were ended by some sick guy in the name of Islam. That is a pretty strong tie. There are other such examples throughout history and we apply them without even thinking. Everyone was pretty tolerant towards religious sects until in the 70s some guy decided to speed up the meeting with his maker for himself and his followers and the first scandal broke. Today, if your kid comes home and tells you he's joined a sectarian cult, you start to wonder whether he'll come home one day sniffing saurin gas.
@JJ who said:
The second thing is the question - why IS a majority so biassed against muslims IN GENERAL?
Religious stuff, however... correct me, if I'm wrong but GZ is a BUSINESS region of NY, right, which means it is NEUTRAL in all respects, since business areas have no religious or racial restrictions that could be claimed without discrimination.
The majority - because this seems to be a worldwide phenomenon - is biased as a reaction to the muslim religion. You have to take into account the fact that Islam is about 700 years younger than Christianity and is following the natural growth path of every religion. In the 1300's and later, church and state went hand in hand, and christians put the world to the sword in the name of God. It was the means available at the time for Christianity to expand. Islam is now in the same expansion phase, but the whole world is evolved to the point where putting it through the sword no longer works, so they try and expand by "colonizing". As a result the world feels the push and they are pushing back. See France and burqas, see Swizerland and mosques and I'm sure there are more examples.
GZ is not a business region of NY. It's a giant tomb, a huge condensed cemetery. In Germany cemeteries as these amazing places, like small forests and there are signs everywhere reminding you that you are entering a cemetery and that there is a behavior code to which you must adhere. I don't think going there with a song playing out of my cellphone (not headphones) would be in any way acceptable. Also one could argue that Auschwitz was a cattle pasture before WWII, and there's nothing wrong with returning it to that purpose now.
Now on topic: I think the situation falls in this category. The idea came to the builders at least partly in provocation, which is why the location is so important. There is no legal grounds to deny their building permit, but the authorities do not want to grant them the right because of the protest that would ensue so they stall while they do a background check on the funds for erecting this place. I'm sure that we got here, because the builder refused to back down when he was told that it wouldn't be a good idea. Don't cling to the details of a situation and throw out the context. I know the American Justice system has a habit of working that way, but I don't think this is enough case for a precedent.
Someone here mentioned 9 years as a long enough time for wounds to heal. WWII was over 65 years ago and some wounds are not yet healed. Vietnam was 40 years ago and the same. I know 9 years might seem like a lot to one person, but to a group of people, it's not nearly enough time to heal. This whole thing is not about government abuse or freedom of speech, it's about a guy or group not listening to common sense and forcing the authorities to push back.
There's some wisdom in the saying that if you piss against the wind, you're gonna come home wet.
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Azagal
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posted August 12, 2010 12:23 PM |
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There is no serious attempt to start with the Sharia anywhere in europe.
Oh, really?
Yes really. If you look at the article dates they're both from early 2008 and I don't think we've seen any more burquas, stoneings and lashings for women who wear their hair openly in Britain have we?
@angelito
Well sure you never exsplicitly said that you think christianity is bull**** and I never said you did (I said you think it is... small difference my dear) but your position on the whole thing is pretty clear don't you think? Calling it all fairytales etc doesn't really mean that you take it inparticularily serious does it? And you don't have to by all means! Just don't be so condascending about it.
And yeah it's true that I don't post much in here and I usually only post when you start to ridiculize my beliefs (and since we have the topic of christianity flying left and right almost everywhere you tend to drop a few lines here and there). I'm just calling you out on it. Sure it doesn't have that much to do with the topic but so does your oppinion on christianity no?
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angelito
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posted August 12, 2010 12:36 PM |
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My opinion about christianity is of no relevance here.
Religion, especially christianity hase NOTHING to do with the entire topic.
When your read the first 3 or 4 posts of this thread, and then look where we are now in the last 2 pages (burquas? quoran allows lying? Vendetta?), you have to admit we completely lost the direction.
And why is that? Because again some members here had to bring up their religious points. And if someone will tell something about religious ceremonies from brazilian jungle people, it won't take long time until someone quotes the bible...And this is what turns most members away from the OSM. THIS!
I wonder how long it will take to turn a thread about tortillas into a religious debate....
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JollyJoker
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posted August 12, 2010 12:57 PM |
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Quote:
Here's the problem with that: you cannot say that Islam is not related with 9/11, and you cannot make the claim that since the guys that did the attacks were not religious leaders it shouldn't matter that they did it in the name of Islam. We need to think about the concept of binding...
Stop right there. No, we don't. If we did - how would the conflict in Northern Ireland look? Anglican-protestant Brits are battling the Catholic Irish and vice versa, the IRA is clearly a CATHOLIC organization - however, they keep that aspect down, it's politic. The IRA has no interest in doing so.
However, this looks different with Al Quaida who has not only no problem to involve religion, but plays that card knowingly and willingly in an effort to find support, EVEN THOUGH, it was a slap into the face of a multi-religious nation, THE UNITED STATES. It simply WASN'T the attack of a religion against another religion.
Because a religion can only fight against other or rivalling RELIGIONS, never against a country.
This is just falling for the bait.
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@JJ who said:
The second thing is the question - why IS a majority so biassed against muslims IN GENERAL?
Religious stuff, however... correct me, if I'm wrong but GZ is a BUSINESS region of NY, right, which means it is NEUTRAL in all respects, since business areas have no religious or racial restrictions that could be claimed without discrimination.
The majority - because this seems to be a worldwide phenomenon - is biased as a reaction to the muslim religion. You have to take into account the fact that Islam is about 700 years younger than Christianity and is following the natural growth path of every religion. In the 1300's and later, church and state went hand in hand, and christians put the world to the sword in the name of God. It was the means available at the time for Christianity to expand. Islam is now in the same expansion phase, but the whole world is evolved to the point where putting it through the sword no longer works, so they try and expand by "colonizing".
Allow me to call that nonsense. Is that supposed to be a law? Every religion starts an expansion phase 1300 years after their founding?
The picture is different and much more complicated, but one aspect is, that religious fundamentalism and traditions are detrimental to capitalism and materialism which is why there is a kind of clash between the former and the latter.
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GZ is not a business region of NY. It's a giant tomb, a huge condensed cemetery.
Oh so sentimental. What would be Hiroshima then? Completely off-limits for US people? Land prices in that area are too high to make it a cemetry - this is capitalism, right? So there will be a memorial, maybe even a large monument, but that's it.
It's astonishing how many people are rising to the bait and are willing to piss on their constitution. The constitution should be worth more than a momentary emotional surge. What do you think how many innocents have been "accidentally" killed by Americans since 9/11? How much bloodletting and wrong is to be done in honor of that "cemetry" of yours?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 12, 2010 03:50 PM |
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Can someone please explain to me what the IRA has to do with building a Mosque in New York?
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angelito
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posted August 12, 2010 06:22 PM |
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I am really tired of this now.
And no, I did not only delete the religious posts, but everything else which has nothing to do with what Corribus just stated.
If you do not stop to post unrelated stuff, this thread will find his way to the Wastelands pretty soon.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 12, 2010 06:58 PM |
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Quote:
Can someone please explain to me what the IRA has to do with building a Mosque in New York?
Am I the only one here who reads JJ's post and properly understands them?
The reason he drags in IRA, is because they are catholics, but some obscure reason they are treated as what they are: A bunch of people who wants something done.
Al Qaudia terrorista? They are treated completely different, and people got this stupid "MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS!" thing going on.
What did he point at when making that post? Muslims being related to 9/11, where a bunch of fanatical madmen decided to bring terror down into another country who pisses of the world on regular basis, murdering quite a bit of people and destroying 2 great buildings(whom are debated if they fell due the terrorists, or ulterior motivs of maybe the goverment).
All JJ is doing, is making a argument over that religion is more or less unrelated to the issue.
Back to the issue, shall we allow a bunch of misinformed mob to stop a small section of a community center to be allowed to have a prayer room for muslims?
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ohforfsake
Promising
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Initiate
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posted August 12, 2010 07:20 PM |
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I'd just like to quickly point out I don't see the problem in calling religion a fairy tale. It's up to the reader to interpret it in a way that it is offending. For me it says
"it's a good story, and you might learn from it, but don't take everything literal",
that's what a fairy tale is for me.
@vahleeb
First of all, I greet you! Nice with a new member active in the osm!
Now you wrote the following:
Quote:
you cannot say that Islam is not related with 9/11, and you cannot make the claim that since the guys that did the attacks were not religious leaders it shouldn't matter that they did it in the name of Islam.
First I'd like to point out, it doesn't matter if it was the pope of all muslims who made the attack, it'd still not be a war against islam.
No, the war is against a small group of terrorists of muslim origin, not against any religion, such as islam, not against any country, such as afghanistan and not against any specific group of people in general, such as muslims.
The little group of people who're the real terrorists and partly uses islam to brain wash others to do their dirty work, those are the only ones the war is against.
Therefore, it's completely unrelated to islam as much as it's unrelated to the gun you may have in your house (terrorists also uses guns). Since it's unrelated to islam as well as muslims, then there's no justification to not allow the mosque to be build.
All the binding you're talking about, the connections which you and many other people around the world most likely are making, are your own responsibility and nothing that those people you draw into this war by your extrapolation should have any responsibility towards.
Also, what history says really doesn't matter. We can learn from history, yes, but because we did something wrong in the past, does not justify us to continue doing it wrong. You're right that people in general are easy to be affected by propaganda, which you at least indirectly states as I read it, but that's nothing new and certainly doesn't justify that, let's say, the government should give in to the people, because that's simply not the point of a government, then you could just as well have anarchy to be honest and here I mean anarchy in the form of no common controlling power [agreed on or not will just differenciate between democracy and tyranny].
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dimis
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posted August 12, 2010 09:39 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 21:40, 12 Aug 2010.
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blabla... what does "jihad" mean ?
Ask any of the uncounted ulemaa, imams and scholars of the different muslim directions, because THEY are the ones who interpretthe scriptures.
I asked. Opinion of Islamic scholars on Jihad. Or should we leave the scholars now and see again how the people interpret the term? I don't expect answers, and clearly I am not willing to participate in this farce any more. It is about religion too on the other side of the Atlantic; at least for some people.
Also, I found this interesting while searching for some answers and I was trying to verify or refute claims. Not that it matters of course.
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dimis
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posted August 12, 2010 09:52 PM |
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Now that I think about it, the 9/11 attack had probably nothing to do with Somalia either.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 12, 2010 09:59 PM |
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See, you found a lot of interesting stuff to read. 
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dimis
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posted August 12, 2010 10:11 PM |
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mvassilev
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posted August 13, 2010 12:16 AM |
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If you look at the article dates they're both from early 2008 and I don't think we've seen any more burquas, stoneings and lashings for women who wear their hair openly in Britain have we?
Fortunately, they haven't gotten that far - yet. But here's a more recent article.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 13, 2010 01:14 AM |
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Not even any Muslim-dominated countries have Shariah law (many are certainly similar though), so wouldn't be overly worried about Europe getting it quite yet. The current Islamic problem in Europe is definitely going to get far worse before it gets better though. Clash of Societies ETA 30-40 years (after all those baby boomers start dying off).
You need to focus on the positive though. If WW2 didn't happen, think of all the sweetass board and video games that never would have come out.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted August 13, 2010 01:32 AM |
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Muslims are kind of the self-segregating poor o this country.
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This thread is pages long: 
