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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted August 15, 2010 10:19 AM |
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this is a war of ideals. we are fighting on another plane to country verses country. the rules of engagement have changed.
in this theatre of war, you lose when you compromise you're prinicples. the moment a government decides that something should be made illegal because it's associated with the enemy in a war of Ideals, then the war is lost for them.
the western world's core ideal is freedom, including freedom of religion, and to not be prevented from practicing your faith.
obviously Elodin want's the US to lose this war, and for about the thousands of allied soldiers in there to have died in vain.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 15, 2010 10:32 AM |
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As it is Elodin's habit, he's slandeering people of the public life he doesn't like or repeats slander by people he feels he has something in common with.
Wiki summarizes things well about Abdul Rauf:
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Abdul Rauf, a Kuwait-born Muslim Sufi of Egyptian origin, is the chief proponent of the mosque project. Some U.S. politicians voiced concerns about his views.
Columnist Jonathan Rauch wrote that Abdul Rauf gave a "mixed, muddled, muttered" message after 9/11. Nineteen days after the attacks, he told CBS’s 60 Minutes that fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam, but Rauch considered his message "muddled" because when asked if the U.S. deserved to be attacked, Rauf answered, "I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States’ policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." Rauch commented: "Note the verb. The crime "happened"?" King and Sarah Palin have also expressed concern about his remark.
Rudy GiulianiLazio criticized him because he "refuses to recognize that Hamas is a terrorist organization;" former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani also claimed that Abdul Rauf "has a record of support for causes that were sympathetic with terrorism." In June 2010, when asked in an interview whether he agreed with the U.S. State Department's assessment of Hamas as a terrorist organization, Abdul Rauf said: "I'm not a politician. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question." adding "I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy,"
Lazio also said that Abdul Rauf played a leading role in an organization (the Perdana Global Peace Organization) that calls itself a "principal partner” of the flotilla that tried to break Israel's blockade of Gaza.[3] Lazio and Gingrich also said that Abdul Rauf has connections with Islamist extremists, which Abdul Rauf strongly denied.
New York Mayor Bloomberg was also asked if he was satisfied that "Imam Rauf, that he is indeed a man of peace given his background where he's supposedly supported Hamas, blamed the U.S. for 9/11 attacks?" The mayor responded saying "My job is not to vet clergy in this city. That's not what I should do, and I don't happen to think that anybody in government to do it. Everybody has a right to their opinions. You don't have to worship there. You don't have to support whatever, whoever, wherever there is. But this country is not built around a state religion. It's not built around only those religions or clergy people that we agree with. It's built around freedom. That's the wonderful thing about the First Amendment -- you can say anything you want."
Fareed Zakariah writes: "... Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, is a moderate Muslim clergyman. He has said one or two things about American foreign policy that strike me as overly critical —but it’s stuff you could read on The Huffington Post any day. On Islam, his main subject, Rauf’s views are clear: he routinely denounces all terrorism — as he did again last week, publicly.
The bottom line is, if the guy was guilty about anything, he could and would be put to court. As he isn't, that simply finishes it.
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ohforfsake
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Initiate
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posted August 15, 2010 12:05 PM |
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The US is not obligated to allow the enemy to build a base of operations in the US.
There's nothing that suggest it to be in anyway more likely that this building will be used for criminal activities compared to any other building.
If that was the case, this building would be illegal.
Likewise if it was the case said person really did fund terrorism, said person would be at trial.
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Furthur, it is against the US Constitution for the federal government to fund a Muslim cleric going around the world preaching Islam. The dems would have a cow if a president funded a Christian evangelist going around the world preaching "a greater understanding of Christiaity."
That may be correct and all, but it seems completely irrelevant to the thread topic. This isn't about justifying actions done by government, but rather, if it's okay to investigate a person based on the premises laid out.
Finally, USA is not at war against islamic terrorism, I'd not even call it a war as it's not against any specific country, but to call it a war, USA is in war against certain terrorist organizations that probably have bases somewhere in the middle east.
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2010 02:18 PM |
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Wow, a few facts that are hidden by the media mostly I dug up:
Ground Zero already HAS a couple mosques. But these are tiny one room affairs that need to keep turning people away. People are whining over nothing. It has already happened. The politicians involved aren't actually incensed about the Mosque, they are just trying to score cheap political points. Like really all politicians do. It's part of the 2 party divided by 2 game.
I mean, It's not like we can't make Catholic Churches in South America, where a lot of the population was slaughtered for not being Christian by the Spanish (and South America doesn't even have any sort off constitutional document as nice as the one in the US), and it also not like the KKK doesn't have the right to erect churches in the south (where they did the most damage, people still put up with them and mostly ignore the loonies. Why can't people just put up with and ignore peaceful Muslims?). We still let them because they have freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
The new one would be larger to accommodate more people, but also function as a cultural centre, much like the nearby Jewish cultural centre that help demystify and dealienate Jewish culture to the mainstream culture.
The people on Fox and Friends also apparently agreed with Obama's decision (for once, mostly because) in protecting the constitution, because it was the right thing to do.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 15, 2010 10:45 PM |
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The US is not obligated to allow the enemy to build a base of operations in the US.
Too late. I just got off the phone with Ali and he's already sending a stockpile of IEDs and mortars over to the upcoming mosque, also known as the Al Qaeda Liberation Front Military Headquarters. They have a sign up and everything, and they'll be running a daycare for the workers for when they're out firing explosives into the city.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted August 16, 2010 12:46 AM |
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in this theatre of war, you lose when you compromise you're prinicples. the moment a government decides that something should be made illegal because it's associated with the enemy in a war of Ideals, then the war is lost for them.
the western world's core ideal is freedom, including freedom of religion, and to not be prevented from practicing your faith.
obviously Elodin want's the US to lose this war, and for about the thousands of allied soldiers in there to have died in vain.
Ah, how sad that anyone would claim I want the US to lose any war. The most casual reader of the forums would know that such a claim is false.
@JJ
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As it is Elodin's habit, he's slandeering people of the public life he doesn't like or repeats slander by people he feels he has something in common with.
I think JJ's day would be incomplete if he did not falsely accuse me of something. Here is exsactly what I said: "Nah. The Islamic cleric is known to have funded at least one Islamic terrorist operation."
Sorry, but it is a fact that the ground zero cleric was a major sponsor of the terrorist flotilla, that the flotilla is HAMAS related, that the cleric refused to say HAMAS is a terrorist organization, that he said America was at fault for 9/11, that he has a radical Muslim Brotherhood background, ect.
With most Americans against the building of the ground zero mosque one would have to be quite gullible (to put it nicely) to believe the ground zero cleric is intent on healing wounds or building bridges.
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I mean, It's not like we can't make Catholic Churches in South America, where a lot of the population was slaughtered for not being Christian by the Spanish
I'm sorry that you seem not to be familiar with what a Christian is. The New Testament defines who is a Christian and who is not. The New Testament (Christian sacred writings) quite plainly says anyone who hates or murders is not a Christian. Jesus flat out said that anyone who does not follow his teachings is not his. Jesus said to love and do good to even your enemies.
However, there have been wolves in sheeps clothes (which Jesus warned about) who have chosen to do aweful things in the name of Christ.
Oh, the terrorist wing of the democrat party (the KKK) is not a Christian denomination and does not build churches.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted August 16, 2010 01:38 AM |
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Quote:
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in this theatre of war, you lose when you compromise you're prinicples. the moment a government decides that something should be made illegal because it's associated with the enemy in a war of Ideals, then the war is lost for them.
the western world's core ideal is freedom, including freedom of religion, and to not be prevented from practicing your faith.
obviously Elodin want's the US to lose this war, and for about the thousands of allied soldiers in there to have died in vain.
Ah, how sad that anyone would claim I want the US to lose any war. The most casual reader of the forums would know that such a claim is false.
+1 provokation, and does on purpose refuse to read what is quoted and its intentional meaning.
This is trolling.
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted August 16, 2010 01:39 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:51, 16 Aug 2010.
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@ Elodin
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False claim. Jesus said to love and do good even to your enemies.
So wouldn't Jesus allow to build a mosque near ground zero then? 
Would you mind answering my question?
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted August 16, 2010 03:05 PM |
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@ Elodin
Quote:
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False claim. Jesus said to love and do good even to your enemies.
So wouldn't Jesus allow to build a mosque near ground zero then?
Would you mind answering my question?
No, he would not.
When Jesus sent his disciples into hostile lands he told them to buy a sword for self-defense. Jesus told us to love even our enemies and to do good to them. He did not tell us to be stupid. The ground zero mosque has clearly chosen to side with Islamic terrorists.
Saying that we should tolerate a mosque that supports terrorism is like saying we should tolerate a day care center that supports child molestation. Only a foolish community would allow NAMBLA to build a day care center.
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 16, 2010 03:05 PM |
bonus applied by Mytical on 17 Aug 2010. |
Edited by shyranis at 15:43, 16 Aug 2010.
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I mean, It's not like we can't make Catholic Churches in South America, where a lot of the population was slaughtered for not being Christian by the Spanish
I'm sorry that you seem not to be familiar with what a Christian is. The New Testament defines who is a Christian and who is not. The New Testament (Christian sacred writings) quite plainly says anyone who hates or murders is not a Christian. Jesus flat out said that anyone who does not follow his teachings is not his. Jesus said to love and do good to even your enemies.
However, there have been wolves in sheeps clothes (which Jesus warned about) who have chosen to do aweful things in the name of Christ.
Please reread what I highlighted, I said Spanish, not Christians 
They still did it in the name of Christianity however, but the people of South America generally have not only forgiven but are more devout Christians than the rest of the world.
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Oh, the terrorist wing of the democrat party (the KKK) is not a Christian denomination and does not build churches.
Church of the United Realms of America (Klu Klux Klan)
Church of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
CHURCH OF THE AMERICAN KNIGHTS OF THE KU KLUX KLAN (caps not mine, title of a legal case)
In recent years (since the Southern Strategy flipped the parties essentially) the KKK has been more pleased with the Republicans. They were the terrorist wing of the Old Strom Thurmond Democratic party. Now they are the freak group nobody wants to be associated with but sadly, the Republican party took over so many KKK members when the Democrats supported integration that it's hard to entirely disassociate with them.
The Republican party is not evil, not is the Democratic party (they are non-physical entities). They're just both full of evil people. The KKK is not tied entirely to either political party but it has its claws in a lot of influential people in both of them.
Back to the subject at hand.
Anybody should have the right to build their religious establishment within any legal plot of land they have purchased.
As I had also mentioned, a precedent was already set with 2 other mosques a couple blocks away from Ground Zero (closer than the one planned).
The gentleman who is behind the project and whom you mentioned in going on a trip to sponsor relations in the middle east has been used by President Bush to do the exact same thing in the past. Nobody questioned him then. Just because you don't say an organization is evil also does not mean you support it. That's like saying "Elodin never said he hates touching people in the elevator! He must love it!" which is an utter fabrication and lie. We need to let cooler heads prevail instead of listening to blowhards. If he supported Hamas he'd have been thrown in Guantanimo or worse years ago. There is too much irresponsible rhetoric used in politics these days.
What's more:
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Former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson said Obama’s comments were “ultimately the right thing to do,” adding, “Obama is correct that the way to marginalize radicalism is to respect the best traditions of Islam and protect the religious liberty of Muslim Americans.”
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Elodin
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posted August 16, 2010 03:47 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:57, 16 Aug 2010.
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They still did it in the name of Christianity however, but the people of South America generally have not only forgiven but are more devout Christians than the rest of the world.
They evidently realized the actions were by non-Christians since the people who did such things are not Christians according tot the New Testament since Christians don't hate or murder anyone.
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In recent years (since the Southern Strategy flipped the parties essentially) the KKK has been more pleased with the Republicans.
Nah. It is a historical fact that the KKK was founded by democrats to terrorize blacks. We know for a fact (the Congressional voting records) it was the democrats who filabustered the Civil Rights Bill of 1964 (as well as one the Republicans tried to push through in the late 1800s.) Every democrat in Congress voted against the bill that sought to punish Klan violence in 1871. The democrat party essentially beat the "black population"into submission until now most blacks vote democrat and are ignorant of what the democrat party has stood for throughout the years.
The Republican party was formed in opposition to slavery. The Republican party has a far better record on race than the democrat party, that is for sure.
The democrat party is the party that believes in discriminating against people based on the color of their skin and based on their gender. The Republican party believes the tenents of Martin Lutur King that a person should be judged on their character rather than the color of their skin.
Please see The Democrat Race Lie , an article by a black conservative who exposes the democrat party for what it is.
But this is getting way off topic. If you with to continue to discuss this perhaps you can create a thread about politics and race or something like that.
Oh, please note that I am an independant conservative, not a Republican.
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Nobody questioned him then. Just because you don't say an organization is evil also does not mean you support it. That's like saying "Elodin never said he hates touching people in the elevator! He must love it!" which is an utter fabrication and lie. We need to let cooler heads prevail instead of listening to blowhards
No, the ground zero cleric refusing to say HAMAS is wrong is like a person refusing to say that a child molestater is wrong for molesting children. Also, the ground zero cleric saying that America is partially responsible for 9/11 is like saying a child is partially responsible for being raped. We need more rational heads to prevail.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 16, 2010 04:12 PM |
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Saying that we should tolerate a mosque that supports terrorism is like saying we should tolerate a day care center that supports child molestation. Only a foolish community would allow NAMBLA to build a day care center.
This is true. I just got off the phone with Ali again, and he explained that 100% of the donations to the mosque (the Al Qaeda Liberation Front Military Headquarters) will be going towards purchasing acid bottles used to spray on the faces of young women in Afghanistan that are trying to go to school.
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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted August 16, 2010 06:11 PM |
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elodin, please stop using the "no true scotsman" falacy, it's not good for you're position.
Also, the imam simply said "america was at fault for 9/11", if he said that (and considering you're past history of sources, it's more than suspect). and to be brutally honest, America was, somewhat, at fault.
considering the history of it's actions during the cold war, of propping up vile regimes in order to prevent the spread of communism, as well as the general sticking in it's nose in everywhere, including in Iran, afghanistan, egypt, pakistan, and saudi arabia, America is not completely innocent. it was not an attack due to the fact that the muslim world hates the west, it was simply down to the fact that the US's foriegn policy during this period was completely mental. I've pointed towards nicuaragua, Somalia, and even Saudi arabia, where american weapons are actually helping the totalitarian regime there, and you think people would just lay down and take this kind of punishment?
and as for you're comments about equating building a mosque to building a pedophilic rape camp, or whatever appalling, ditracted and ridiculous comparison you care to make, shows that you hate the modern values and it's values of freedom of religion. the US will not be loosing ground by building a mosque near ground zero (2 f**king blocks away from WTC!), in fact, it will be prohibiting the image of the US as an islamphobic nation, and to truly uphold it's true beliefs.
an american must follow the laws laid out in the constitution, which makes sense. so to prevent their first amendment rights smacks somewhat of being a traitor, to me.
Hey, I'm from the UK, and if you're the average american, Elodin, we're holding up you're constitution better than you're doing, mate.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 16, 2010 07:54 PM |
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A read of what I quoted from wiki would tell everyone what he ACTUALLY said and did. It's on this page.
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angelito
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posted August 16, 2010 10:33 PM |
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No, he would not.
When Jesus sent his disciples into hostile lands he told them to buy a sword for self-defense. Jesus told us to love even our enemies and to do good to them. He did not tell us to be stupid. The ground zero mosque has clearly chosen to side with Islamic terrorists.
It has? And where do you have this statement from? I can't tell why, but I get the feeling you have something against the islam in general. And I think the Islam is at least as peacefull as the catholic church was in the 13th and 14th century
So you are against freedom of religion as long as it isn't christianity?
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Elodin
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posted August 17, 2010 12:42 AM |
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It has? And where do you have this statement from? I can't tell why, but I get the feeling you have something against the islam in general. And I think the Islam is at least as peacefull as the catholic church was in the 13th and 14th century
So you are against freedom of religion as long as it isn't christianity?
No, I am not opposed to peaceful Muslims, peaceful atheists, or peaceful tree huggers. I am not Catholic and do not defend everything that has been done in the name of Catholicism. Clearly anyone who hates or murders is not a Christian according to the New Testament.
I am for freedom of religion. I am not for freedom of Satanists to sacrifice children or radical Islamics to kill "infidels."
Here is what one moderate Muslim says about the ground zero mosque:
Clicky
Quote:
The Koran commands Muslims to, "Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book" -- i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of "fitna"
So what gives Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the "Cordoba Initiative" and his cohorts the misplaced idea that they will increase tolerance for Muslims by brazenly displaying their own intolerance in this case?
Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?
There are many questions that we would like to ask. Questions about where the funding is coming from? If this mosque is being funded by Saudi sources, then it is an even bigger slap in the face of Americans, as nine of the jihadis in the Twin Tower calamity were Saudis. [...]
As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.
Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.
The ground zero cleric was a major sponsor of the terrorist flotilla, that the flotilla is HAMAS related, has refused to say HAMAS is a terrorist organization, said America was at fault for 9/11, and has a radical Muslim Brotherhood background, ect.
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Salamandre
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posted August 17, 2010 12:48 AM |
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First you would have to backup seriously your statement for the "terrorist" flotilla. It is only your opinion, refuted by the majority of the civilized world. But of course, only you know the truth, I forgot.
Also, I don't know if you realize it, but there is more hate/vengeance in your words than in any atheist statement I could read, anywhere. I guess the tolerance is reserved to those who think by themselves, not guided by fairy tales.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 17, 2010 12:50 AM |
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@El:
He has never been charged with a felony. By the standards of the state, he is an innocent man, yet certain figures are pushing for an investigation without reasonable suspicion.
He has the right to believe and say that the US government was an accomplice in 9/11 (it was). He has the right to not acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist organization. There are plenty of non-Muslims that believe both of those things; you have no right to conduct investigations into their affairs either.
You are advocating one of the key injustices that instigated America's independence to begin with, yet you're a self-proclaimed patriot. You make no sense to me.
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shyranis
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posted August 17, 2010 02:22 AM |
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Edited by shyranis at 02:25, 17 Aug 2010.
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You know, most Muslims claim suicide bombers are also not true Muslims and that being a suicide bomber only makes you exist in pieces in the afterlife (you're stuck that way as your own personal form of hell). That's something people often conveniently forget.
What's more, the old and new testaments are a part of the Koran.
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Doomforge
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posted August 17, 2010 10:14 AM |
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You know, most Muslims claim suicide bombers are also not true Muslims and that being a suicide bomber only makes you exist in pieces in the afterlife (you're stuck that way as your own personal form of hell). That's something people often conveniently forget.
You see, Koran has many statements that encourage to kill the unfaithful. What those "peaceful Muslims" say isn't exactly true to their religion. Well, Koran is actually ambiguous to the point of self-contradicting WAY more than the Bible. Have you read both? I did. It's pretty hard for Muslims to follow since you are encouraged to kill on one page, then encouraged to forgive all on the other.
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What's more, the old and new testaments are a part of the Koran.
Parts. Mahomet took whatever he liked from any religion he knew.
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