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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted August 04, 2010 01:10 PM |
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How is anti-intellectualism a good idea?
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted August 04, 2010 01:26 PM |
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Quote:
Building a mosque there is about the most idiotic thing they could possibly do.
Possibly, but that's irrelevant.
p.s. "intellectualism" is a fuzzy term, but it is sometimes used to mean that you're 'pie in the sky' and constantly drool over theory without being able to apply it to reality. OhForFSake could be seen as an example of negative intellectualism with the way some of his posts are.
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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted August 04, 2010 01:31 PM |
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Edited by bixie at 13:31, 04 Aug 2010.
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I'm with Xerox on this (HC masterful troll that he is). It's also their right to build a mosque there, and those who say it's stupid, offensive or tactless are being stupid, offensive and tactless themselves.
Would we really have this problem if it wasn't for 9/11? would we really have a problem if it was a christian who drove planes into the twin towers? no
It is not about who are our enemies and who are our friends, but who can be our friends, and who we won't make our enemies.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted August 04, 2010 03:29 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:30, 04 Aug 2010.
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Building a mosque at ground zero is spitting in the faces of everyone who lost loved ones on 9/11 and desecrating the graves of the murdered people.
The imam, Faisel Abdul Rauf, had refused to call the radical Palestinian group Hamas a terrorist organization. In fact, he was on of the sponsors of the terrorist flotilla that tried to run the Israeli blockade. Also, in a "60 Minutes" interview televised shortly after 9/11 he said that "United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened."
Rauf's has a "Muslim Brotherhood" (a radical group)background.
He refuses to reveal the financing of the mosque.
Yes, Al'Quieda will certainly view the errection of a mosque there aa big victory.
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Revelation
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 04, 2010 03:43 PM |
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If you go by logic, then no there should be nothing legally wrong with building a mosque there.
On the other hand, what's wrong with building it somewhere else? Logic or not, the people who want to build it have to know it's going to piss a bunch of people off and cause a lot of hurt feelings and resentment, so why make the proposal in the first place? There are billions of places you can build a mosque, and none of them would be as likely to cause a battle and fuel hatred. Just because something is logical or legal doesn't mean it's the best thing to do.
Should they be allowed to build a mosque near ground zero? Yes. Should they build a mosque near ground zero? No.
That's a fine but significant difference.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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dimis
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posted August 04, 2010 03:47 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 15:48, 04 Aug 2010.
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Tottally agree with that one. I find the claim of building a mosque at ground zero ridiculous to start with.
I heard by someone, that he was willing to accept a mosque there, if Christians were also allowed to build a church in Mecca. Now, that's an interesting bargain! haha. Entry to Mecca for non-Muslims, just in case you don't know.
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The empty set
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 03:55 PM |
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Well, that's exactly the point: people shouldn't be pissed and so on in the first place - it's the wrong message. It's like branding EVERY moslem, just because there are radical ones.
I mean, there ARE radical "Christians" who make assassination attempts on abortion hospitals and docs, quoting the Bible. Now what? Would people be pissed, if Christian institutions were build near the asassination places?
It's basically the other way round: by making a fuss about it, non-muslims piss into the face of all peaceful moslems who are just as shocked and abhorred about 9/11 as everyone else. It's basically telling them that they should feel guilty.
This is definitely not te right signal - escept for the next witch hunt.
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted August 04, 2010 04:03 PM |
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Quote:
Should they be allowed to build a mosque near ground zero? Yes. Should they build a mosque near ground zero? No.
That's a fine but significant difference.
Nailed it.
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ohforfsake
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Initiate
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posted August 04, 2010 07:05 PM |
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These are my thoughts on the matter. Since I don't know much about the details, I'll try to be very general.
First of all, symbolism in my opinion shouldn't matter, I have the same opinion towards the swastika (which was mentioned earlier). I don't care about symbols, I care about people actually being hurt, forced, etc. Saying a given thing is a symbol of some horrible act is desecrating towards the actual victims of said act.
On that matter, if people actually does do hurt others, because they feel offended somehow, then these are the people who should be handled, not the people who are their 'excuse' (Those who they feel offended them).
Secondly, I'd like to say I think the state should have nothing to with religion at all, I've no idea if this is sponsered by the state, in which case I think it's wasting peoples money.
Thirdly, if it has nothing to do with the state, I'd assume they actually own the ground on ground zero and then they can do with it whatever they want as long as they don't by this put force upon someone else (which in general should be following the law, at least for an ideal law, I'd guess).
So all in all, I don't see any problem in this, it's the business of the people involved and only those people, but keep the state/government out of it, otherwise it becomes everyones business (as everyone is paying).
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blizzardboy
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posted August 04, 2010 07:05 PM |
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Quote:
Tottally agree with that one. I find the claim of building a mosque at ground zero ridiculous to start with.
I heard by someone, that he was willing to accept a mosque there, if Christians were also allowed to build a church in Mecca. Now, that's an interesting bargain! haha. Entry to Mecca for non-Muslims, just in case you don't know.
It's a failure of a comparison and promotes the divisive idea that America is enemies with a religion/culture, rather than with specific criminals (I wish terrorists would simply be called criminals).
Mecca is much like a sorority of snobby college girls that only let certain people in. Maybe it's stupid, but it's their land and their rule. Ground zero is an an open site that's not affiliated with any specific ideologies, and even so, it's not like this mosque is planning to built in the middle of the crater. AFAIK it's adjacent to it.
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dimis
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posted August 04, 2010 07:37 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 19:56, 04 Aug 2010.
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First of all, that's not what I claim. This something that I heard and I find it amusing, because the whole discussion of building a mosque at ground zero is at least hilarious the way I see it.
But if you want to elaborate there, there are answers.
First of all, the church does not have to be in the most central location in Mecca, but somewhere in Mecca. That goes for "adjacent to it".
Second, the guys who guided the planes on the towers were muslims. So, even though the vast majority of the muslims are against those criminals, well ... , they share the same religion with them. So, if they want to do something as a step of good will, why not let Christians build a church in Mecca, and then ask for a mosque at ground zero. Besides, the statement "Ground zero is an an open site that's not affiliated with any specific ideologies" is non-sense and you know it. It is part of the american land, in the center of America's top city, and this is precisely the reason that the Twins were selected as targets. It is funny to claim otherwise.
In other words blizz, if you were a muslim, would you ever ask to build a mosque at ground zero within a decade after the attack ? For me, asking something like that is arrogance and humanity at its worst. It is disgusting. However, it would have been different, if that was an arrangement between governments as an act of good-will and understanding among different parties, that criminals are criminals, regardless of their religion. In other words, if the US government made that proposal as an act of good will and in conjunction with some further arrangement. But guess how likely is such a thing only a decade after the attack ...
Of course if you want a mosque at ground zero ... well ... I can't help you; it's your land.
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The empty set
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ohforfsake
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posted August 04, 2010 07:43 PM |
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My guess is that the focus on grouping people into categories based on their religion are based on the media, as I find it as meaningful as catagorize people in different group based on the colour of their hair and say it's disrespectful if people with black hair have anything to do with the area called ground zero.
Sure they used religion as their excuse, but that does not justify unfair threatment to anyone identified to belong to the group of which their excuse originated. I mean had their excuse been "we do this in the name of Sweden", should it then be decided that any activity related to Sweden and swedish people at ground zero should be prohibited?
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 07:57 PM |
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People, what's the matter with you?
The terrorists may have been of muslimic religion, but they didn't want to hurt ANOTHER RELIGION.
They wanted to hurt the UNITED STATES.
Correct me, if I'm wrong, but the US are NOT affiliated with a specific religion. In fact, people with a plethora of different religions live there.
First and foremost the citizens of the US are AMERICANS, no matter their religion, and the planes did NOT make any difference between muslims and people of other religions. ALL Americans were hurt, no matter their race OR their religion.
I repeat - it was NO RELIGIOUS attack, but a POLITICAL ONE.
So the terrorists were muslims. So what? Are all muslims now terrortists? Are they all suspicious?
Is it in any way IMPORTANT that the terrorists were muslims?
The answer is NO, because that's only propaganda of the terrorists in their attempts to find support. It's just a propaganda trick.
By trying to put some kind of blame onto the American muslims, or by expecting that they should be ashamed for their religion and bow their head in quiet suffering, we FALL FOR THAT PROPAGANDA. We - or better - YOU are isolating your fellow Americans in quite the same way than the Americans of Japanese heritage after Pearl Harbor.
Building a mosque at ground zero would be an act of AMERICAN PEACE between the members of their different religion.
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dimis
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posted August 04, 2010 08:13 PM |
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I guess it is difficult for you to be convinced. Exactly because the hit was a political move, the Twins were selected. As I said in the previous post, that region is the center of the American ideology/culture. Now, as you say, America does not want a discrimination on religions, so why would they be willing to build a religious monument in that region ? Oh, and guess what ? The claim is that they are willing to build a mosque, which is part of the religion of the criminals who attacked, and has nothing to do with the majority of people who built this country. Well, if this isn't hilarious, I don't know what is.
As of the other questions for muslims; no, not all muslims are terrorists; no, not all of them are suspicious. Yes, it is important that they were muslims; it is background information at least.
So, JJ, let me understand. If you were muslim, wouldn't you be even slightly ashamed that you share something with the terrorists; that is religion ? Would you have the boldness to demand a mosque at ground zero in less than 10 years after a terrorist attack by guys who were admittedly muslims ?
There is peace between the members of different religions in the US. I can hardly believe it works otherwise anywhere in the civilized world.
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The empty set
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 08:29 PM |
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I'll answer with a question.
If you read about a rape - or a gang rape: are you ashamed for being a man?
If a Christian schoolboy runs amok and kills 15 students, would you find it tactless when Christian organisations try to ease the general pain?
Now, don't come with "this is different". It is NOT. It WOULD BE different if muslims as muslims had killed Christians because they were Christians. As in, if blacks would have killed whites for their color - or vice versa.
AND EVEN THEN, EVEN THEN, this wouldn't mean anything for the other members of that religion or race or color or whatever.
I'm a German, mind you - no, I'm not ashamed. I'm generally not ashamed for things other people do, when I've nothing to do with it. And what is more, I don't think I should be ashamed either.
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dimis
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posted August 04, 2010 08:33 PM |
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Quote:
If you read about a rape - or a gang rape: are you ashamed for being a man?
Yes. I think now that you get all the answers.
I am also ashamed as a human for the whole incident on the towers.
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The empty set
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ohforfsake
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posted August 04, 2010 08:38 PM |
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You're most welcome to feel shame and dissapointment for anyone who you find yourself in the same group as. Examples such as humans, greeks, men, math dudes, colour of hair, ability to swim, etc. 
However, I think it's crossing the line when someone else gets limited because of these emotions. As in this case, if muslims could not build a mosque at a certain place, because other people have negative feelings towards that due to events in the past of which these people had no influence over.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 04, 2010 09:08 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If you read about a rape - or a gang rape: are you ashamed for being a man?
Yes. I think now that you get all the answers.
I am also ashamed as a human for the whole incident on the towers.
Well, in that case I suppose you don't come out of a state of being ashamed, because there is always a rape somewhere, and there are atrocities without end, has been, are, will be, most probably.
However, I don't believe you ARE. I know how shame feels - different. I'd say that shame, if you DO feel it, real shame - let's say you broke someone's trust, see, how it hurts that someone, realizing what a stupid thing you've done -, feels DIFFERENT. It burns; it nags; it itches; it's like a weight.
If you feel that, permanently, my condolences.
If you feel a slight uneasiness - wistful headshaking in realization what humans are actually able to, if you are reminded, well. Of course we are. After all we are supposed to fight for our lives and those who we are supposed to protect. And neither we are perfect nor nature is.
Back to the issue. Keep in mind, that stressing the religious aspect is ONLY in the interest of the terrorists because they try to form and mobilize a front where none exists - and with the US reacting the way they do they are on the road to actually reach their goals.
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mvassilev
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posted August 04, 2010 09:12 PM |
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JJ is completely right, I must say.
Binabik:
It is this foolish irrationality and obsession with the "human side" that's such a huge problem. It is excessive trust in gut reactions and emotions that lead to the vast majority of the problems in the world. No exaggeration. Nazis, Communists, nationalists of every stripe - all have one thing in common - they appealed to emotion over reason.
Quote:
Why is a swastika illegal in Germany?
Because they don't have the same respect for freedom of speech that we do in the US.
Corribus:
Sometimes confrontation of this sort is necessary. People need to realise that they have the right to build, and nothing they can do can stop them.
dimis:
Quote:
that region is the center of the American ideology/culture
No, not really. If we step back and think about it, what were the Twin Towers? Just office buildings.
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xerox
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posted August 04, 2010 09:46 PM |
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But they were also very, very iconic buildings for New York and so it made much sense that they would strike at them. And who knows, maybe there was some religious symbolism with it like "The americans built towers in an attempt to reach god! Now they shall be smited down by his true followers!" but of course the main reason for it was political and it was a consequence of things people did in the past.
I still remember when that happened and the teachers in school were like "That is how things go if you do not build towers with instructions from swedish IKEA" (ok, that maaaay have been a bit tasteless) this is going to be in the history books.
I was like six-seven and I just thought that it looked like a waterfall and was beautiful, guess I am evil after all.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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