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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted October 27, 2010 12:55 PM |
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Quote:
Then you better rephrase the statement that "mages should in sense have roughly the same potential as heroes to learn spells" rather than "they know every spells that the hero knows".
That is in the list on the first page as "Creatures with variable spell book" or so...
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 27, 2010 01:17 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 16:24, 27 Oct 2010.
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Quote:
I'm explaining why I disagree that open-field battles mean minimal surprise. Have nothing to do with wanting flanking manoeuvres.
Open fields give long lines of sights, so it usually is difficult to pull anything sneaky, unless there's some boggy terrain in the area.
Quote:
Flanking and rear attacks are already in the series. How many times have you ordered a unit to attack from the sides or back?
Rarely, unless I already have more stacks than the enemy.
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The fact that it isn't like that in real life does not make them not flanking and rear attacks.
However, it does make then much easier than in real life, and if they're much easier they should have a much reduced bonus than in real life, that keeps the game balanced between archers/casters, tanks, and speedsters.
Quote:
Then you better rephrase the statement that "mages should in sense have roughly the same potential as heroes to learn spells" rather than "they know every spells that the hero knows".
I never said they did, what I said was: "Hey, if you want to extend the imagination that far why not go the whole way and just allow mages to cast virtually every spell you know?".
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted October 27, 2010 04:24 PM |
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Quote:
However, it does make then much easier than in real life, and if they're much easier they should have a much reduced bonus than in real life, that keeps the game balanced between archers/casters, tanks, and speedsters.
Agree. Mrdragon post contains some nice suggestion in how this is done.
I never said they did, what I said was: "Hey, if you want to extend the imagination that far why not go the whole way and just allow mages to cast virtually every spell you know?".
Then, I asked you "Do they really know every magic the hero knows?", you answered "Well how else can you explain Mages casting Cleansing at the advanced level?". Even if you didn't stated it directly, from my question and your answer, it is implied so especially because you use "how else".
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted October 27, 2010 04:49 PM |
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Quote:
Open fields give long lines of sights, so it usually is difficult to pull anything sneaky, unless there's some boggy terrain in the area.
Yea, usually. But you can have surprises even in open fields. You can hide units behind other units for example.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 27, 2010 06:21 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 18:22, 27 Oct 2010.
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Quote:
Agree. Mrdragon post contains some nice suggestion in how this is done.
However, you must remember that the defender is 'already' at a disadvantage because he retaliates after the attacker (and is thus weaker because he's probably lost units), and also, each unit only gets one attack anyway, so subsequent attacks will not be retaliated against. That's more than enough of a disadvantage for my liking.
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Then, I asked you "Do they really know every magic the hero knows?", you answered "Well how else can you explain Mages casting Cleansing at the advanced level?". Even if you didn't stated it directly, from my question and your answer, it is implied so especially because you use "how else".
Oh fine, but it's arguing semantics really, and it still plays into my point that it's unrealistic to limit them to two spells, it's just something that has to be done for gameplay reasons.
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Yea, usually. But you can have surprises even in open fields. You can hide units behind other units for example.
In normal combat yeah, but with stacks it won't be easy.
Also, don't double post, use the edit button if you want to add something.
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2010 03:14 AM |
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Quote:
However, you must remember that the defender is 'already' at a disadvantage because he retaliates after the attacker (and is thus weaker because he's probably lost units), and also, each unit only gets one attack anyway, so subsequent attacks will not be retaliated against. That's more than enough of a disadvantage for my liking.
That's why I also suggest the interception mechanic to compensate for the defender.
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In normal combat yeah, but with stacks it won't be easy.
Yes, more reason added to my original statement regarding open field battles in games.
Also, sorry for the double post.
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Agent_00_BLeRD
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 01, 2010 12:32 PM |
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Here are some explanations for you Jiriki and an amendment to one of yours. You can incorporate them into the first thread:
sometimes underground on aboveground-level
This means that sometimes there would be underground areas on the ingame aboveground-level. Sense in this would be for example concerning a tight mountain passage which would, for example, cause penalties for flyers (little room to maneuver) and bonuses for shooters (good vantage points). The Entrances to Moria in LotR is an example...at first, the fellowship is not descending but pretty much walking on the same ground level as they had been outside. This point should make this possible in HoMM.
-Day and night like disciples 3
In Disciples 3, a turn doesn’t cost a day but a portion of a day. Turn 1 will be morning, turn 2 will be afternoon and Turn 3 will be night. Something like this could be implemented in Heroes with alternating day and night (removing the afternoon). Some examples of this:
At night, undead are stronger, have greater chance of inflicting fear. Griffins do less damage (poor night vision).
At day, vampires are weaker. Treants regenerate hp, fire elementals do more damage.
At night, a hero specializing in ambushes gets one free round of attack at the beginning of combat (no enemy retaliation for all troops for one round, troops get extra movement to reach the other side of battlefield)
At day, scouting bonus to all heroes. Fire, earth and light magic spells are more powerful.
-A way to defend your buildings/bases without using creatures
For example, a secondary skill called “Realm Protector” (good name, eh Markkur? ;-) ). A hero with this skill can cast it on a mine or a garrison (but not a town so that it’s still possible to rush someone) to place a guardian. Guardian’s abilities/stats depend on the hero’s stats and expertise in Realm Protector. Guardian should be sufficiently powerful to defend against a small army and will be placed instead of troops (you can’t have a guardian alongside troops defending a place). Guardian would gain experience from successful battles and would also gain a small amount of experience per day. Hero can place one guardian per skill level (3 at expert). Something like this is needed because we hate to place precious troops in garrisons and thus garrisons are usually wasted and mines unguarded.
Battle:
-war machines can be controlled without skill
A hero has control of war machines whether or not he has the required skill. The secondary skills increase the effectiveness of war machines but the manual control option should always be with the hero. He who can command 100 dragons at level 1 should be able to command a catapult. Whether that catapult hits the target or not, how much damage that ballista does etc. depends on the skill level.
-combats with more than one hero on one side
Something like the last battle in King’s Bounty: Armored Princess. You and an ally could attack a castle together.
-simple options when starting a battle, like quick combat button
-many options when starting a battle
New things that can be done; ambush, negotiate, bribe creatures, poison enemy army, scout etc. Meaning we should be able to do more to an enemy stack than just walk up and attack. Probably dependant on secondary skills.
-progressive retaliation=ret. not capped by a number of strikes, but an amount of damage done.
This is to discourage the concept of eating retaliation with 1 peasant and then attacking without fear with your remaining troops. A stack will continue to retaliate till it has done N amount of damage (N depends on the strength of the stack).
-Active Morale (morale changing through battle, see whiteriders thread)
Loss of troops decreases your creatures’ morale, killing enemy troops raises it
-Units have area of control, which usually can't be passed by enemy creatures
Prevent enemy troops from reaching your archers as if they were strolling through a park instead of a battlefield. Your melee troops can intercept creatures trying to walk around them depending on stack size, whether the troop has retaliated or not etc.
Heroes:
-your style of play varies Hero Stats
If your hero spends a lot of time casting spells, his magical abilities will improve at the expense of physical ones. Vice versa for might heroes.
Skills&Racials:
-Racial skills should be workable without needing a town.
Avenger and Artificer skills are useless if you don’t have a Preserve or Academy, something that is seen in campaigns. Racial skills should not need a town.
-unlock special features as you gain more castles
Capturing more than one of a specific type of castle would unlock powerful buildings e.g. Mana multiplier for the wizard, bonus fortifications for humans/dwarves, more creature growth for elves etc.
-Ability to move quickly between towns
Transport armies from one castle to another very quickly (take only 2 days when normal movement would take 4-5), like a superfast caravan (however it should not be instantaneous like a town portal). This would make it easier to get reinforcements on maps that have castles long distances apart and no monoliths. Mapmakers can always disable the building if such a delay is intentional.
Units:
-Creature Experience, but only stat boost, no new abilities.
-creature Experience, including new skills&abilities
Creature stacks gain experience from battles (like in H3:WOG) and can “level up” and even learn new abilities. Pikeman learn to do more damage to cavalry, archers gain no range and obstacle penalty etc.
-unit counters - abilities making unit stronger against certain types of other units (like, f.e., mounted units)
Pikemen should do more damage to mounted units (but not vice versa), fire units would do more damage to treants etc.
-Upgrading troops that have joined you on the map.
When archers join your army for “greater glory” but you have no space because you have marksmen with you, you should either be able to upgrade those archers on the field (for more than normal amount of gold if needs be) or at least be able to send them to the nearest castle to serve in the defense. Wasting those troops is painful…
-more naval elements in the game, different boat types
-stepping in and out of boats -> movement costs + reminder instead of loosing the turn
Make water a more lucrative option. Remove boarding/unboarding penalty, special "water only" structures that are more valuable than land counterparts, ability to travel further on water than on land, special abilities/penalties for some creatures/heroes on water:
Pirates get better stats plus 1 shot of cannon attack
Some magic user/creature can summon aquatic monsters as reinforcements
Water specialists can do more damage with water spells
Fire elementals/troops with weak constitution become weaker at sea (sea sickness :-P )
-Number ranges given with the lots, horde, throng info
Instead of saying “Throng of Goblins” it should say “Throng of Goblins (100-249)”. This way we don’t have to remember the ranges which seem to change in every game.
-loan option like in h3wog
In H3:WOG, you can take a loan from your city hall, maximum amounts depends on the number of buildings in town. Every subsequent turn, half of your daily gold income is used to return that loan till all of it has been paid back with interest. This makes it easier to get that building on the last day of the week or to load up a hero with troops and send him on the way instead of waiting for 3 more days.
II - Ambiance Issues:
-Fluid animations
Animations like those seen in king’s bounty series. Troops in that game combine the animation of their last movement step with their attack animation making it look very natural.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted November 01, 2010 02:22 PM |
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wow, thank you!  Will read through them soon and then implement them!
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Agent_00_BLeRD
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 01, 2010 09:23 PM |
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Another very important thing:
There should be a menu or information window that tells us exactly what has been disabled on the current map. There are few things that are as infuriating as getting all the pre-reqs for your ultimate skill only to find out that it has been disabled in the map. Or to build that mage's guild to the 5th level to find out that there is no town portal.
The window should inform which artifacts, spells, skills etc. have been disabled by the mapmaker on the current map so that players know not to base their strategy on something that will never be fulfilled. If I find myself wanting to cast fist of wrath on the mapmaker while playing a single player game, imagine how bad such a thing would be in multiplayer.
For the first post, use the following summary:
-A button in the scenario information panel (accessible while selecting a map to play AND during normal gameplay) that tells you exactly which spells, skills, artifacts etc. have been disabled for the current map.
This will prevent people from wasting their time on a strategy that requires a skill/artifact/spell they will never be able to get on that map.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 02, 2010 06:34 PM |
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Quote:
Another very important thing:
For the first post, use the following summary:
-A button in the scenario information panel (accessible while selecting a map to play AND during normal gameplay) that tells you exactly which spells, skills, artifacts etc. have been disabled for the current map.
This will prevent people from wasting their time on a strategy that requires a skill/artifact/spell they will never be able to get on that map.
Very good. This would end the need for everyone to put this in the 'map description', that only some will remember to do
____________
"Do your own research"
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bludgeon
Known Hero
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posted November 04, 2010 11:43 PM |
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-A button in the scenario information panel (accessible while selecting a map to play AND during normal gameplay) that tells you exactly which spells, skills, artifacts etc. have been disabled for the current map.
I'm loving this idea 
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted November 12, 2010 10:41 PM |
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First: Sorry for not working on this. LAst week was university-reserved 
Also, I sometimes lack the energy for such these times...must be teh approaching winter -.-
Quote:
-A button in the scenario information panel (accessible while selecting a map to play AND during normal gameplay) that tells you exactly which spells, skills, artifacts etc. have been disabled for the current map.
 not sure, I have to say...
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Agent_00_BLeRD
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 13, 2010 11:31 AM |
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What made you give a neutral vote?
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted November 14, 2010 11:31 AM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 12:01, 14 Nov 2010.
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A feeloing in my stomache, to which I have learned to listen XD
I know this sounds weird. It probably is a good idea, I admit. Still, my vote is
EDIT: right now working onthe thread^^
...I'm not sure, have I overseen some real suggestions, except the info of spells/skills etc?
No replyign to the kind giving of explanations by agentblerd
Quote:
sometimes underground on aboveground-level
This means that sometimes there would be underground areas on the ingame aboveground-level. Sense in this would be for example concerning a tight mountain passage which would, for example, cause penalties for flyers (little room to maneuver) and bonuses for shooters (good vantage points). The Entrances to Moria in LotR is an example...at first, the fellowship is not descending but pretty much walking on the same ground level as they had been outside. This point should make this possible in HoMM.
Not sure 'bout the words, here. The thing with a mountain path (the only change you made, or am i wrong?) coudl be misinterpreted. THis still is about the area being underground...a mountain path, for me, is an aboveground path over the mountain.
Added your description o the realm protector skill
war machines can be controlled without skill
added that explanation, it's good!
Quote:
-combats with more than one hero on one side
Something like the last battle in King’s Bounty: Armored Princess. You and an ally could attack a castle together.
This can be done better, imo. Don't like that it's only a comparison to a certain game. I for instance, didn't play king's bounty (the new version; I did play the oooooooooooold pre-heroes version a bit).
Quote:
-many options when starting a battle
New things that can be done; ambush, negotiate, bribe creatures, poison enemy army, scout etc. Meaning we should be able to do more to an enemy stack than just walk up and attack. Probably dependant on secondary skills.
Added a 'at least partly' in the last sentence, otherwise good!
Quote:
-progressive retaliation=ret. not capped by a number of strikes, but an amount of damage done.
This is to discourage the concept of eating retaliation with 1 peasant and then attacking without fear with your remaining troops. A stack will continue to retaliate till it has done N amount of damage (N depends on the strength of the stack).
added
Quote:
-Active Morale (morale changing through battle, see whiteriders thread)
Loss of troops decreases your creatures’ morale, killing enemy troops raises it
Seems only an example. I'd liek a real description in front of that, but will definitely take the example in!
Quote:
-Units have area of control, which usually can't be passed by enemy creatures
Prevent enemy troops from reaching your archers as if they were strolling through a park instead of a battlefield. Your melee troops can intercept creatures trying to walk around them depending on stack size, whether the troop has retaliated or not etc.
Hmmm. The first sentence should not be the first for me. You can do different things with area of control (such a sguarding a breach in a wall, or a way between to obstacles, or, or preventing an enemy from escaping. Also, wasn't it designed so that ANY creature would have the ability to intercept? And that flyers would ignore non-flyer interception?
Quote:
-your style of play varies Hero Stats
If your hero spends a lot of time casting spells, his magical abilities will improve at the expense of physical ones. Vice versa for might heroes.
Again, this is an example. Also which kidn of hero the hero is is not important here, just how you use them.
Quote:
-Racial skills should be workable without needing a town.
Avenger and Artificer skills are useless if you don’t have a Preserve or Academy, something that is seen in campaigns. Racial skills should not need a town.
again, the example-issue.
Quote:
-unlock special features as you gain more castles
Capturing more than one of a specific type of castle would unlock powerful buildings e.g. Mana multiplier for the wizard, bonus fortifications for humans/dwarves, more creature growth for elves etc.
Quote:
-Ability to move quickly between towns
Transport armies from one castle to another very quickly (take only 2 days when normal movement would take 4-5), like a superfast caravan (however it should not be instantaneous like a town portal). This would make it easier to get reinforcements on maps that have castles long distances apart and no monoliths. Mapmakers can always disable the building if such a delay is intentional.
I'd make a tiny adjustment: not giving certain numbers
Otherwise
Quote:
creature Experience, including new skills&abilities
Creature stacks gain experience from battles (like in H3:WOG) and can “level up” and even learn new abilities. Pikeman learn to do more damage to cavalry, archers gain no range and obstacle penalty etc
This is pretty self-explaining. Added a "could"
Quote:
-unit counters - abilities making unit stronger against certain types of other units (like, f.e., mounted units)
Pikemen should do more damage to mounted units (but not vice versa), fire units would do more damage to treants etc.
Example-issue
Quote:
-Upgrading troops that have joined you on the map.
When archers join your army for “greater glory” but you have no space because you have marksmen with you, you should either be able to upgrade those archers on the field (for more than normal amount of gold if needs be) or at least be able to send them to the nearest castle to serve in the defense. Wasting those troops is painful…
Changed the troop names to "unupgraded units" and such. Also deleted the sending part...this owuld be another suggestion...
Quote:
-stepping in and out of boats -> movement costs + reminder instead of loosing the turn
Make water a more lucrative option. Remove boarding/unboarding penalty, special "water only" structures that are more valuable than land counterparts, ability to travel further on water than on land, special abilities/penalties for some creatures/heroes on water:
Pirates get better stats plus 1 shot of cannon attack
Some magic user/creature can summon aquatic monsters as reinforcements
Water specialists can do more damage with water spells
Fire elementals/troops with weak constitution become weaker at sea (sea sickness :-P )
That's not exactlx referring to the two points you set it under, I fear.
Quote:
-Number ranges given with the lots, horde, throng info
Instead of saying “Throng of Goblins” it should say “Throng of Goblins (100-249)”. This way we don’t have to remember the ranges which seem to change in every game.
Added "for example"
Quote:
-loan option like in h3wog
In H3:WOG, you can take a loan from your city hall, maximum amounts depends on the number of buildings in town. Every subsequent turn, half of your daily gold income is used to return that loan till all of it has been paid back with interest. This makes it easier to get that building on the last day of the week or to load up a hero with troops and send him on the way instead of waiting for 3 more days.
Quote:
-Fluid animations
Animations like those seen in king’s bounty series. Troops in that game combine the animation of their last movement step with their attack animation making it look very natural.
again, too much just a reference to KB, for me. Changed it a bit...
Thank you very much, for giving all these! I appreciate your help and effort!!!
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 14, 2010 11:56 AM |
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It's kinda funny since it's one of the most obvious and important feature from this whole topic 
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted November 14, 2010 12:02 PM |
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Quote:
It's kinda funny since it's one of the most obvious and important feature from this whole topic
That's what you feel. I feel some MUCH mor eimportant features. also, this topic is not jsut 'bout obiousness
...shall I count your statement as a , by the way ?^^
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 14, 2010 12:04 PM |
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Important, it's not important, it's irritating at the very worst, and in most cases barely noticeable (maybe 1-2 useless artefacts an 1 spell).
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 14, 2010 12:37 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 13:10, 14 Nov 2010.
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A feeloing in my stomache, to which I have learned to listen XD
I know this sounds weird. It probably is a good idea, I admit. Still, my vote is
Is this about the button to inform what is missing/NA on the map? It could be an "Option" and not default, so it could give the mapper the ability to reveal or not. It would be the maker's choice, like anything else about the map.
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"Do your own research"
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted November 14, 2010 01:01 PM |
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Was I not clear enough? XD I voted neutral becaus eof a FEELING, not because I am arguing against it. YOu will not confess me with arguments, probably^^
I do NOT have arguments^^ Except maybe that I find it not very important at all^^
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 14, 2010 01:14 PM |
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Quote:
I do NOT have arguments^^ Except maybe that I find it not very important at all^^
Well that is certainly clear. Didn't intend to get you fired-up this morning. I just guessed your hesistation may have been not wanting to "always reveal". Clearly that guess was inaccurate.
Make a great day.
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"Do your own research"
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