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PeterFarkas
Adventuring Hero
LeBronTosaurus
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posted October 14, 2010 04:00 PM |
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Quote:
People, you have to ignore the shallow facts that cover the surface and to reach further below, to the depth of the Goblin mysteriousness and hidden godlike destructive powers. Each goblin is actually a latent tactical nuke. Each Cyclops is a latent ballistic missile launcher. The Wizards discovered this by accident when they created the Orcs, which is one of the actual reasons why the corpses available to the Necromancers are so abundant. Therefore it's incorrect to think of the Goblin as of simple organic projectile that disintegrates on impact (actually it explodes quite violently, but Nival, who are part of the conspiracy, concealed this via a simple fake animation). It's not so stupid as it looks if you just think a little. Everything in this world (and in Ashan) happens for a reason after all.
Note: The plutonium goblins, codenamed "Witch-Doctors" are more destructive than the uranium goblins, known as "Trappers". Know the difference, it might spare you the second head and the third arm.
OFF:
Then why can't Gremo Saboteurs disable Cyclopes as well?
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted October 14, 2010 04:32 PM |
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Quote:
OFF:
Then why can't Gremo Saboteurs disable Cyclopes as well?
Gremlin Saboteurs can't because they are still (mostly) organic creatures.
A Gremlin Biophysicist though...
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted October 14, 2010 07:58 PM |
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 I hate to disturb your fertile discussion, but please don't drift off to far into the mysteries of Goblins and Cyclopes
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted October 14, 2010 10:03 PM |
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Quote:
hmmm but that is still a mine, technically^^
Something different would be for example:
an alchemy skill which could for example, allow to turn mana into gold...or crystals into gold for mana.
Yet that would still be the hero...
You're right of course but at least, it would be some variation added to <imo> our limitations now.. You didn't like the time factor affecting gold production? I thought it made sense. Could you imagine any process not being affected by a war bopping through the neighborhood? When I thought of an Alchemist, I was thinking a character that is in the game in a limited way. Like the 'Merchants' in Medieval Total War, but done well. Even though it would still be the same function as a hero with say 'estates'in HoMM3, it would add a different look, as well as some accumulation swings:
I wouldn't want to go to far with it and end up having to 'pay for the army' on a daily basis. That's too real.
The Developers definitely thought about the gold bit before with ToE, with adding that 'whatever they re called' where you can sell artefacts you don't need or have too many of.
Good to do the "What if?" with you
Take care
____________
"Do your own research"
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Agent_00_BLeRD
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 15, 2010 05:02 PM |
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Here's something I just realized I've wanted since Heroes 3.
Notice how little attention we pay to the map structure called garrison? How many times have you actually placed a proper army to create a defensive point? If your answer is never, then I believe you'll want something like this too.
There should be a way to protect your base/mines/chokepoints with things other than creatures from your army. If you place a sizeable chunk of force in a garrison, your main hero has nothing to go on with and the enemy will eventually muster stronger forces and overrun your defense. On the other hand, if you put too few troops, they aren't going to put up much resistance anyway and you'd have wasted them. In the current situation, the only benefit of using garrisons is to place a few level 1 troops in there to find out the exact number of troops in the enemy army.
So, in summary:
--A way to defend your buildings/bases without using creatures
In disciples 3 (seems most of my ideas come from there ;-) ), you had these "control points" which, once captured, allowed you to control the resource generating structures around them. Upon capturing a control point, you installed a guardian. It had the ability to attack all enemy targets per round but was immobile in combat. The guardian would gain experience from battles that it won and would grow stronger, get more hp, more damage, better abilities etc. Also, every day, the guardian would gain some experience even if it hadn't fought any battles (since you can't expect each guardian to be involved in battles) but this would be much lower than that gotten from battles.
How would something like that work in Heroes? Disciples involved armies that contained only 1 troop per stack but that troop gained experience and grew stronger as battles went on. You never "ran out" of troops to hire but could only hire them at level 1 when they were pretty weak. The hiring system in heroes is quite different so I don't know if introduction of this defensive system would make it too hard to penetrate the enemy base. Yet I feel that there should be a way to defend your base without having to bring your main hero back to the castle wasting so many days of movement.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted October 15, 2010 06:41 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 18:43, 15 Oct 2010.
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Quote:
So, in summary:
--A way to defend your buildings/bases without using creatures
In disciples 3 (seems most of my ideas come from there ;-) ), you had these "control points" which, once captured, allowed you to control the resource generating structures around them. Upon capturing a control point, you installed a guardian. It had the ability to attack all enemy targets per round but was immobile in combat. The guardian would gain experience from battles that it won and would grow stronger, get more hp, more damage, better abilities etc. Also, every day, the guardian would gain some experience even if it hadn't fought any battles (since you can't expect each guardian to be involved in battles) but this would be much lower than that gotten from battles.
How would something like that work in Heroes? Disciples involved armies that contained only 1 troop per stack but that troop gained experience and grew stronger as battles went on. You never "ran out" of troops to hire but could only hire them at level 1 when they were pretty weak. The hiring system in heroes is quite different so I don't know if introduction of this defensive system would make it too hard to penetrate the enemy base. Yet I feel that there should be a way to defend your base without having to bring your main hero back to the castle wasting so many days of movement.
I think it is a sound idea that needs to be well thought-out, as you are doing. One of the more irritating things to me (besides the empty garrisons)was/is the "hero with 1-Lv. 1 creature crusing around the map and changing mine ownership" It hardly makes for thrilling gameplay. I agree with you completely, that it is a game-weakness. If you actually dare to fortify the garrison? than you've severely weakened your hero's ability to expand your Realm
Maybe your idea could be a 'skill' (dreaming in font here) say, "Realms" A starting hero gets one region, one spot to have a decent garrison. Each level up another 'site' given and the army is upgraded. Just one way of addressing your idea, of course
Make a great day, Markkur
____________
"Do your own research"
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 15, 2010 08:33 PM |
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Quote:
an alchemy skill which could for example, allow to turn mana into gold...or crystals into gold for mana.
Yet that would still be the hero...
Had we still had 7 resources I might have suggested an alchemist, who can turn and resource into another resource at cost, but it can only convert into one resource, so you'd still need several for them to be any real use.
Oh, and here's an idea (rather than an actual wish), what if you could get a special level 8 unit that is absolutely kick-ass, but you could only get 1 per hero/town?
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Mike80D
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted October 15, 2010 10:19 PM |
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Matt, I like the idea of having a Tier 8 unit whose numbers are VERY limited. I would like that unit to vary greatly from town to town, but not just be some super creature. Instead, he would have some powerful abilities (prevent all ranged damage for 2 turns) or something tactical.
Honestly what I would prefer is to have just 1 type of Uber-creature (similar to the Megadragon in Homm4) who can only be recruited at an adventure map dwelling. Make the cost VERY high and the recruitment numbers very low. It would be exciting to discover a place like that on a map... why would an uber-creature have to come from a castle??
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MrDragon
Supreme Hero
Eats people with Ketchup
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posted October 15, 2010 10:57 PM |
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Edited by MrDragon at 22:59, 15 Oct 2010.
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Quote:
Matt, I like the idea of having a Tier 8 unit whose numbers are VERY limited. I would like that unit to vary greatly from town to town, but not just be some super creature. Instead, he would have some powerful abilities (prevent all ranged damage for 2 turns) or something tactical.
Honestly what I would prefer is to have just 1 type of Uber-creature (similar to the Megadragon in Homm4) who can only be recruited at an adventure map dwelling. Make the cost VERY high and the recruitment numbers very low. It would be exciting to discover a place like that on a map... why would an uber-creature have to come from a castle??
Yes and no.
No Uber Creatures in town please, just a matter of preference on my part.
UBAR beasties are so annoying to balance, besides, Champion unit should be kick-ass enough.
Yes to having highly powerful neutrals available in out of town dwellings.
Champion equivalent or higher, so that by the time you can get one it will be worth it.
Tiny detail:
I hope they never name ANYTHING Megadragon ever again, it sounds terrible, in my opinion.
HoMMIII's Azure dragon was the coolest looking dragon they've had I'd say, and carried a simple yet elegant name.
Edit: Just remember, whenever a unit is added that is "stronger then" it usually reduces the impressiveness of other units.
Same goes for raw numbers of high tier units. (which is why people don't like having dragons in half of the factions, it "cheapens" them as a whole.)
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vitorsly
Known Hero
Joker!
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posted October 16, 2010 01:41 PM |
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I have made a list for the 3 announced with 10 (30 if upgrades counted) creatures per faction but it may be to much and 8 might be a good number!
BTW I hope the phoenix is in sylvan again because since H3 There is a foto-copy of the dungeon's dragon.
I also hoper they change the name of the fire/lave/magma dragon name to something more like fire/lava/magma lizard because they dont even have wings!
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted October 16, 2010 03:03 PM |
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Phonixes are neutral in Heroes 6!
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agent_00_blerd
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 16, 2010 07:38 PM |
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Quote:
Maybe your idea could be a 'skill' (dreaming in font here) say, "Realms" A starting hero gets one region, one spot to have a decent garrison. Each level up another 'site' given and the army is upgraded. Just one way of addressing your idea, of course
Make a great day, Markkur
I think your suggestion is excellent. Every hero (or maybe if the hero has a certain skill, like say...Protector) would have the ability to place a guardian at a mine or a garrison (but perhaps not in a town because this would make rushing impossible).
The guardian would be a single creature with a fairly large amount of hp, decent immunities to status effects and would be able to handle small armies on its own. Its power and available abilities would depend on the casting hero's level, the expertise in the Protector secondary skill and perhaps even the hero's primary stats at the time of casting.
The hero would get the ability to place an additional guardian for each level of expertise in Protector, up to 3 guardians at expert level.
Thoughts:
--There should be a way to prevent abusing this by hiring level 1 heroes and using their guardians...maybe have a minimum level requirement of 5 or something before you can place a guardian?
--Once a guardian is defeats an army, should it gain experience points and level up? Gain stats? New abilities? Or does it grow only when the casting hero gains a new level?
--Can a guardian be moved from one spot to another or is it REMOVED from the first spot and re-cast at the second? If it can be moved, can it be done by any hero or only the hero who cast it?
--Can a guardian exist alongside other armies or is it EITHER an army OR a guardian (I'm going in favor of the latter)?
For making the entry in the first post, you can use the following line:
--Protector secondary skill which allows a hero to place up to 3 guardians to protect mines or garrisons (but not towns)
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted October 16, 2010 08:49 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 21:26, 16 Oct 2010.
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Quote:
I think your suggestion is excellent. Every hero (or maybe if the hero has a certain skill, like say...Protector) would have the ability to place a guardian at a mine or a garrison (but perhaps not in a town because this would make rushing impossible).
The guardian would be a single creature with a fairly large amount of hp, decent immunities to status effects and would be able to handle small armies on its own. Its power and available abilities would depend on the casting hero's level, the expertise in the Protector secondary skill and perhaps even the hero's primary stats at the time of casting.
The hero would get the ability to place an additional guardian for each level of expertise in Protector, up to 3 guardians at expert level.
It was Your idea...I just ran with it.
Quote:
Thoughts:
1-There should be a way to prevent abusing this by hiring level 1 heroes and using their guardians...maybe have a minimum level requirement of 5 or something before you can place a guardian?
2-Once a guardian is defeats an army, should it gain experience points and level up? Gain stats? New abilities? Or does it grow only when the casting hero gains a new level?
3-Can a guardian be moved from one spot to another or is it REMOVED from the first spot and re-cast at the second? If it can be moved, can it be done by any hero or only the hero who cast it?
4-Can a guardian exist alongside other armies or is it EITHER an army OR a guardian (I'm going in favor of the latter)?
1 = I think a mimimum level is a sound requirement. <IMVHO>Why should a noob hero start out with a 'Realm strength'?
2 = Either way. Good things about both. Maybe have more than one type.
3 = I 'imagine' it to be "under orders' by the Hero that commands.
4 = End result is same. Still...both could exist for variation
Quote:
For making the entry in the first post, you can use the following line:
--Protector secondary skill which allows a hero to place up to 3 guardians to protect mines or garrisons (but not towns)
That brings up, what is it a skill of? Defense seems the natural fit.
Good stuff, Make a great day, Markkur
____________
"Do your own research"
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 16, 2010 08:57 PM |
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Quote:
I have made a list for the 3 announced with 10 (30 if upgrades counted) creatures per faction but it may be to much and 8 might be a good number!
Firstly, what the heck are you blabbering on about, secondly, there are no alternate upgrades, at least in vanilla.
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vitorsly
Known Hero
Joker!
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posted October 17, 2010 05:39 PM |
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Edited by vitorsly at 17:40, 17 Oct 2010.
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Quote:
Quote:
I have made a list for the 3 announced with 10 (30 if upgrades counted) creatures per faction but it may be to much and 8 might be a good number!
Firstly, what the heck are you blabbering on about, secondly, there are no alternate upgrades, at least in vanilla.
First: I never said that it was alternative but consecutive upgrades (1>2>3 not 1>2 or 3)
Second: It is not a feature I think will be in game but somethin i wish it could be ingame.
Third: I'm talking about this:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=33780
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 17, 2010 07:47 PM |
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Okay, could you post a link next-time then please?
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Abiogenist
Hired Hero
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posted October 21, 2010 03:58 PM |
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I - Gameplay,etc. Issues:
Adventure Map:
-Random Events
 Making the game less predictable will make it more interesting.
-various ultimate artifacts instead of just "the grail"/"tear of asha"
 I'm not sure about this one. The Grail is okay for me. What I'd like though are more set items.
-underground more distinct from aboveground
What? I don't get this one. What do you mean distinct? Distinct visuals? Distinct encounters? I'm totally confused. Perhaps this needs to edited.
-sometimes underground on aboveground-level
Ugh... confusing sentence grammar.
-Adventure Map-buildings improving hero skills, as long as you control them
Worthy a try.
-uncrossable rivers with crossing options (bridges&fords)
A must!
-Different water terrains
Makes sense. If land has different terrains, why can't water be the same?
-multiple Ultimate Artifacts per map
I like having a single ultimate artifact though.
-Day and night like disciples 3
I haven't played that game, but day/night cycle always wins in almost every game.
Battle:
-Bigger Battlefields
Why not?
-Option to retreat without losing the whole army
Has its pros and cons. Neutral for me to stay safe.
-war machines can be controlled without skill
Again, I don't get this one. What do you mean skill? Player skill? Hero skill?
-Battles taking time, possibly even lasting day (with a certain rate of turns=>day Heroes, unless surrendering, are stuck in the battle. Reinforcements can be sent.
Might be interesting, but I'm content with the current mechanics. I'm also curious how this will be implemented in a multiplayer game.
-simultaneous retaliation:
 BAD.
-combats with more than one hero on one side
Hmn, could be interesting. But this will be hard to balance.
-Castle and obstacle Penalties for shooters.
Of course!
-simple options when starting a battle, like quick combat button
Not sure about this one.
-many options when starting a battle
Again, not sure.
-infinite (weak) retaliation for most creatures
Bad.
-progressive retaliation=ret. not capped by a number of strikes, but an amount of damage done.
-Chess-like Battle (Hero as King)
-Active Morale (morale changing through battle, see whiteriders thread)
A must.
-morale has different effect than another/quicker turn
Definitely. Moral should have damage or defense boost or something.
-Hexagons-BAttlefield (H3) isntead of Squares-Battlefield (H5)
Both are fine for me.
-Can split unit stacks on battlefield
Maybe in tactics mode only?
Campaign:
-variable campaign structure
-Include Tournament "Campaigns" (incl. Multiplayer)
Not sure about this. Personally, I see HoMM more as hotseat multiplayer game.
-Include World-Campaigns with region conquering (incl. Multiplayer)
Editor(s):
-Faction Editor
A must!
-Creature Editor
A must!
Heroes:
-each tavern has different heroes for hire
-Advanced classes (as in H4)
Haven't played H4, please define?
-Different Hero direct attack options
What do you mean? I don't get this one.
-2 hero classes by faction
I miss this one.
-New hero classes unconnected to towns
Maybe, but mostly I'm not sure.
-hero classes can't learn certain spells
Not sure about this one.
-Hero on Battlefield (as in H4)
Maybe...
-Heroes on Battlefield, but with infinite HP & can't fight without army
-switchable mounts with different benefits
-your style of play varies Hero Stats
Huh?
Skills&Racials:
-no ultimate skill/perk
Eww. No!
-no cross-skill prerequesites
NO!
-choose racial skill for any hero (thus quasi making him the hero class of your like) instead of hero belonging to one class, having it's racial
What's the point of racial when you can choose it? In real life you can't choose your race, this should be applied in the game as well.
-game should hide Navigation as an option if there is no or very little water on the map
-more skills that are used outside combat, like ambushing skill or construction skill.
-diplomacy skill should work like in H4.
Haven't really played H4. Please define.
-a skill to improve the spellcasting prowess of creatures
Why not?
-More skills, and make the perks more logical
-Racial skills should be workable without needing a town.
Spells&Magic:
-Spell schools by effect
-more spells
Everything needs more spells.
-More Adventure Spells
-Can learn spells in mage guilds of allied castles
Towns:
-multiple different tech & research paths
-Spies available in thieves guild, capable of watching an area
-2 creatures per level.
I think this was made in H4 and I didn't like it (that's why I didn't buy the game. I preferred alternative upgrades in H5 ToE. But I wish they made the alternative upgrades more varied and more strategic-wise.
-possible to build several capitoles
-unlock special features as you gain more castles
-many options in the tavern
Like what though?
-Mini-towns
What exactly are mini-towns?
-Ability to move quickly between towns
Units:
-Creature Experience, but only stat boost, no new abilities.
Like Barbarian blood rage? I liked blood rage. I think this should only be as a racial skill.
-creature Experience, including new skills&abilities
-unit counters - abilities making unit stronger against certain types of other units (like, f.e., mounted units)
Makes strategy more exciting.
-Unit initiative (as in H5)
Love this one in H5. They should retain it.
-higher chance for creatures joining your army when they have the same faction as the hero
-use the linear formula for spell damage from creatures like in H4
-some creatures have adventure spells and abilities
-Mercenary Creatures fighting for a daily amount of gold
-Creature Spellbook variable
-Upgrading troops that have joined you on the map.
...miscallaneous:
-more complex sieges
-more diplomatic options - changing allies, etc. during scenario
-more diplomatic options - shared armies
-more diplomatic options - increased tradeing
-ambushs
-more naval elements in the game, different boat types
-stepping in and out of boats -> movement costs + reminder instead of loosing the turn
-weather
YES!!!
-heroes operating on day or night
-AM-movements determinates daytime
-Heroes can fortify their armies
Like how?
-Mini-factions
-Number ranges given with the lots, horde, throng info
-loan option like in h3wog
II - Ambiance Issues:
-more peaceful visuals, less "shiny" art
OF COURSE.
-realistic visuals - NOT 3D and such, but the things looking realistic, in opposite to a comic look.
-Terrain defines look of towns (intown, too)
-and terrain defines look of AM buildings
-Fluid animations
III - fun and miscallaneous:
-Whack-a-baby-seal minigame in taverns
Might work in a single player, but pointless in a multiplayer game (unless implemented to have something to do during those wait for your turn times).
-Darts in taverns
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Agent_00_BLeRD
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 21, 2010 07:44 PM |
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I think the first post needs to be edited to include the description of the various terms. Most people can't really browse through 9 pages to get an idea of everything that has been discussed.
I'll try explaining some of the things you were confused about, Abiogenist.
-war machines can be controlled without skill
means that the hero should at least be able to direct the war machines to attack a specific wall section/creature even if he doesn't have the secondary skill needed to control war machines. The machine will be less effective but at least the target will be of our choosing. This is suggested keeping in mind that the hero has no problem directing 100 black dragons but is unable to direct a catapult because he doesn't have the ballistics skill.
-simple options when starting a battle, like quick combat button
-many options when starting a battle
These are new things that can be done; ambush, negotiate, bribe creatures, poison enemy army, scout etc. Meaning we should be able to do more to an enemy stack than just walk up and attack.
-Advanced classes (as in H4)
In H4, your two most developed skills determine your "specialty" e.g. Life Magic and Death Magic give you Dark Priest specialty which allows you to drain life like vampires. Nobility and Order Magic give you Wizard specialty where your attacks inflict maximum bad luck on enemy troops.
-your style of play varies Hero Stats
If your hero plays offensively with physical attacking and less spellcasting, his attack/defense stats improve slightly at the expense of magic/power. Conversely for magic users.
-Creature Experience, but only stat boost, no new abilities.
-creature Experience, including new skills&abilities
In H3:WOG, your creature stacks gain experience from battles too. As a stack experience reaches a certain point, it "levels up" gaining better stats and sometimes new abilities (like double attack, no enemy retaliation etc.)
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 21, 2010 09:58 PM |
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Quote:
-war machines can be controlled without skill
means that the hero should at least be able to direct the war machines to attack a specific wall section/creature even if he doesn't have the secondary skill needed to control war machines. The machine will be less effective but at least the target will be of our choosing. This is suggested keeping in mind that the hero has no problem directing 100 black dragons but is unable to direct a catapult because he doesn't have the ballistics skill.
lol, imagine you need a special skill to control champion creatures, otherwise they are berserk, like berserkers and frenzied gnashers in H4. or a certain level, they won't obey you if you aren't strong enough.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted October 22, 2010 08:32 AM |
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Quote:
I think the first post needs to be edited to include the description of the various terms. Most people can't really browse through 9 pages to get an idea of everything that has been discussed.
I know that. And I will do that. However, my university semester has recently begun and I'm just getting into the routine again. Therefore, I haven't really posted here at all, as you may hav enoticed, as I did before, usually. I will do what you (and others before you) asked for, but not quite now.
Help is, however appreciated. If anyone is willing to write descriptions to some of the points for me, I'D be very glad!
Thanks, people, btw., for participating here so much, for your comments and ideas, discussions, controversies and agreements and everything else!
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