|
|
DeathLord
Tavern Dweller
SnoPINGAS usual I see?
|
posted February 05, 2011 11:50 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I agree - logically. But for the game, I don't think Luck should be completely removed...but renamed. Cause, what does it IN FACT really mean in the game? A critical good/bad hit. So it should get a name, imo, that emphazises on that, maybe...so that Luck still IS a stat for the creatures, but the corresponding skill has a different name...the morale-skill isn't named Morale, too, is it?^^
I am not urging luck to be thrown away but rather abolish static luck facotrs that the luck skill gives. Renaming it to suit the concept of a damage multiplier it neither the cure, as luck is not simply about dealing damage, it can (and should, as I am arguing for) have other, global areas of effect not just on the battlefield but on the adventure map. Creature still reatin their luck factors in battle (reflected from the hero's luck).
What I want luck to be in H6 is:
1: A dynamic, non-static factor that effects the hero's actions globally, that means both on the adventure map (the amount of treasure he/she can possibly find for example) and his/hers fortune in battle (normal luck damage multiplier).
2: Luck should not be considered to be self-generated (which the luck in Heroes seems to be) but rather the seen as the favour of a divinity. Seeing as how most of Ashan's people are believers of sorts, and most factions have some patron deity, it would be logical that luck and lucky encounters is the reward of that patron becasue a hero had EARNED it through heroic acts in the course of an adventure. This is also an effort to bring the gods of the world more into the mix, symbolizing that they affect events in the world, although indirectly.
Quote:
should, for me
That is why I wrote that I was uncertain but like a dynamic luck factor, morale should not be static and change drastically according to the situation. Leadership can be translated to morale but there also other areas it can trasnlated to as well. As i wrote, leadership á la heroes is univerally useless for undead and thus, reworking the concept of leadership so that it can more mutual rather than largely discriminating one faction (Necros have ONE PERK in H5 that can be a little useful). Perhaps one can see the leadership skill as "the ability to successfully integrate and maximize available resources", translating leadership as a skill in being able to boost the general combat potential (offensive, defensive and supportive) of any units in hero's ranks, seeing as how the hero is a superior leader in combat.
Morale can stand on its own without a skill to propagate it. There are plenty of events in the game world that can make morale dynamic rather than a static factor. Foreign terrain could perhaps hurt troops morale if lingering to long, the presence of champion units could very well be envigorating, army comparisons, artifacts, all units of one faction (classic) and of course map objects like rally flags, fountains of youth etc. counts as well. Underlying is of course the concept that the troop's morale is reflected from the hero's own personal morale, I mean, if a hero feels terrible, it is very likely that it poisons the army's morale as well.
Quote:
Thanks, I thought so too.
Quote:
Not completely sure, what you mean...
When opening the tavern/thieves guild/blacksmith window in a H5 town, a small picture in the textbox is accompanied by the associated text. However, no matter what faction the city belongs to, it is the same picture; A human tavernkeep/thief/blacksmith. Consequently, you might wonder: what is a human doing in stronghold town? Orc hates humans quite a lot, escpecially in the setting of H6. It may seem of a minor detail but still, it becomes awfully generic.
Quote:
)...I don'T know...I see no problem there, somehow...their neutralness is what makes the war machines so different than units, ogether, of course, with the fact they don't stack...
You mean neutrality, but how can they be neutral? Firstly, they are usually built in a town of a specific faction and built by the buying hero's preference (faction). Secondly, is it likely that orc or undead siege craftmanship is as industrially disciplined as Haven's? I find that very doubtful.
I agree that we just need war machines to do what they should but does every catapult/ballista/medtent/ammocart look exactly the same?
Oh and while on the point of war machines, I would DEARLY like the ballista to always be manually controlled so it does not randomly shoot at the blinded stack and dispells it or at that succubus stack and gets itself shoot.
____________
It is time to kick ass and raise skeletons, and I am all out of dark energy.
|
|
DeathLord
Tavern Dweller
SnoPINGAS usual I see?
|
|
posted February 06, 2011 12:15 AM |
|
|
Quote:
The artefact defaults to the backpack of the winner of the combat.
That sounds like a lot of micromanaging artifacts and requirement of artifact quantity, seeing as if all seven stacks shall luck modifiers, you need to have found seven artifacts that all have something to do with luck. Artificier and its mini-artifacts for academy worked somewhat in H5 but it was not simply about luck but also about different stats and was costly. Overall it sounds messy.
Quote:
Stuff that, I want to get away from the 'everything revolving around the hero' attitude, not add to it.
There might be a reason why they called the game Heroes of might and magic. The hero is central to all things in the game, as almost everything is done through the hero. Also, there is a great difference between a hero and creature stack; stacks simply do not have the understanding of how artifacts work and cannot benefit from their power(s).
Quote:
It is however a realistic effect, I mean just look at [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Minden]Minden[/url], a grievous tactical error turned into a victory by the sheer tenacity of the troops.
I suppose I will trust you on that one.
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted February 06, 2011 02:50 AM |
|
|
Quote:
That sounds like a lot of micromanaging artifacts and requirement of artifact quantity, seeing as if all seven stacks shall luck modifiers, you need to have found seven artifacts that all have something to do with luck.
What's to micromanage about it, you stick artefacts on stacks, and they revert to your backpack if said stack dies? BTW I said that sticking a luck artefact on a stack it has twice the effect on that stack than it has on the army, I fail to see what's so hard to understand.
Quote:
There might be a reason why they called the game Heroes of might and magic. The hero is central to all things in the game, as almost everything is done through the hero.
Maybe they should put heroes back in combat then, the way they had them in H4 (only not as over-powered).
Quote:
Also, there is a great difference between a hero and creature stack; stacks simply do not have the understanding of how artifacts work and cannot benefit from their power(s).
Ah bullcrap, the fact that it's not been done yet in no way justifies it never being done.
|
|
DeathLord
Tavern Dweller
SnoPINGAS usual I see?
|
|
posted February 06, 2011 01:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
What's to micromanage about it, you stick artefacts on stacks, and they revert to your backpack if said stack dies? BTW I said that sticking a luck artefact on a stack it has twice the effect on that stack than it has on the army, I fail to see what's so hard to understand.
And what happens in the case of continued ressurection? Artefacts cant be changed during battles, as H5 showed. It is not hard to understand, but hard to practically execute. I am seeing it as difficult to acquire the sheer amout of artefacts to maximize this idea. The chance that one acutally find such artefacts is uncertain. It is simply easier and more logical that luck comes through a hero as normally, everything the hero becomes better at reflects on his/hers army. Excess artefacts are better sacrificed for exp.
Quote:
Maybe they should put heroes back in combat then, the way they had them in H4 (only not as over-powered).
That is a big NO. Heroes shoud be very versatile on the battlefield but seeing as how it done H5, it was good enough. Heroes are central, to a certain degree. It is a concept old as the road.
Quote:
Ah bullcrap, the fact that it's not been done yet in no way justifies it never being done.
Then it means that applying artefacts in fact ridicules the concept of it and it is illogical. A stack is not ONE person, it is a STACK(heap, load, mass or hoard) of creatures numbering virtually infinitely. Therefore, how is it translated that stacks carry individual artefacts? One unit in the stack? Then only one percent of the stack should benefit. The underlying concept of artefacts is that it is ONE item designed for ONE person, and logically that perosn is the hero whos luck/skills mirrors his/hers troops.
____________
It is time to kick ass and raise skeletons, and I am all out of dark energy.
|
|
Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
|
|
posted February 06, 2011 02:21 PM |
|
|
Quote:
That is a big NO. Heroes shoud be very versatile on the battlefield but seeing as how it done H5, it was good enough. Heroes are central, to a certain degree. It is a concept old as the road.
As teh concept of a flat earth 
____________
ICTC announced
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted February 07, 2011 01:27 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Then it means that applying artefacts in fact ridicules the concept of it and it is illogical. A stack is not ONE person, it is a STACK(heap, load, mass or hoard) of creatures numbering virtually infinitely. Therefore, how is it translated that stacks carry individual artefacts? One unit in the stack? Then only one percent of the stack should benefit. The underlying concept of artefacts is that it is ONE item designed for ONE person, and logically that perosn is the hero whos luck/skills mirrors his/hers troops.
So how did Armor of the Forgotten Hero give magic resistance to all the creatures in the army then? And why does the hero's attack and damage get added to the creatures' stats? Also, why can heroes have tens of thousands of creatures, but only 7 types of creatures? You can't say "it's not realistic" in a game like this and expect it to hold water.
|
|
Borton
Hired Hero
A lemming in my pocket
|
|
posted February 07, 2011 10:48 AM |
|
Edited by Borton at 10:57, 07 Feb 2011.
|
To me, both luck and morale are just fine the way they've always been (referring to effects). Morale doesn't need a new name to include the undead because these troops also can't be discouraged, which is a convenience. However, I think that if you explain it correctly on the lore, undead creatures could just be affected by morale the same way that any alive creature.
The only thing I would change is to remove -as you said- luck from being a skill, for the same reasons you gave. I would leave luck increase or decrease to artifacts only. Artifacts could be associated to different gods (in this idea I'm ignoring Ashan and Urgash lore since I've never liked it) chosen among a lot of them. Think a bit of the H3SOD artifact kits (when you gathered all the artifacts from one "family" and you received an extra benefit): When you collect all the artifacts from a god you receive some blessings, not being at this point attached by your faction believes (or at least having each faction a pantheon with different gods).
And speaking about artifacts, what if the artifacts for creatures were banners, having the option to choose between different ones with different effects? Maybe too Warhammer?
____________
The HOMM4 vampire is Dave Gahan!!!
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 07, 2011 03:20 PM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 15:21, 07 Feb 2011.
|
Luck not being a skill : makes sense, moreover it is mostly to increase damage, and there's already the attack skill.
Leadership could improve initiative / speed instead of morale. and you would have perks such as tactics, aura of swiftness.
perks like fortunate, recruitment, diplomacy... would be linked to a new skill similar to nobility in H4, seriously, it was annoying in H5, when you were aiming for combat skills in leadership and had to pick fortunate or recruitment...
I like the idea of giving artifacts to creatures, but they shouldn't have double effect, since every artifact you can't put on your hero because of not enough place may end up on one of your stack, so it's not like you are making any sacrifice.
|
|
DeathLord
Tavern Dweller
SnoPINGAS usual I see?
|
|
posted February 07, 2011 09:00 PM |
|
|
Quote:
To me, both luck and morale are just fine the way they've always been (referring to effects). Morale doesn't need a new name to include the undead because these troops also can't be discouraged, which is a convenience.
You are absolutely right, it has always been good that necro morale never can freeze and necro units never lose turns. Still, I rather want it so that all sides can use every skill to maximum efficiency. As of right now, Leadership is flat out useless for the undead.
Quote:
However, I think that if you explain it correctly on the lore, undead creatures could just be affected by morale the same way that any alive creature.
Again, you are correct. The problem lies in that changing either leadership or so that undead are morale sensitive is extremely unorthodox in the heroes universe since both are very cemented. The only viable soultion would perhaps be that leadership is left as it is now (granting morale bonuses) and make SOME undead units morale sensitive. When I say some, I mean undead units that, lore-wise, still have a mind of their own like liches, vampires and fate spinners. The other undead are more like automatons that fight, win or dies (again) for their necromancer master no matter what kind of meat grinder they are facing. Like golems, they should be invulnerable to morale (like normal undead). In this way, necromancers can make use of Leadership aswell without having to change it.
Quote:
The only thing I would change is to remove -as you said- luck from being a skill, for the same reasons you gave. I would leave luck increase or decrease to artifacts only. Artifacts could be associated to different gods (in this idea I'm ignoring Ashan and Urgash lore since I've never liked it) chosen among a lot of them. Think a bit of the H3SOD artifact kits (when you gathered all the artifacts from one "family" and you received an extra benefit): When you collect all the artifacts from a god you receive some blessings, not being at this point attached by your faction believes (or at least having each faction a pantheon with different gods).
Thank you for your understading my point. That is a great idea of using artefacts sets to catalyse the hero. Seeing as how in Tote, there was lots of artefact sets which granted additional bonuses if it was carried by a hero of a ceartain faction.
Quote:
And speaking about artifacts, what if the artifacts for creatures were banners, having the option to choose between different ones with different effects? Maybe too Warhammer?
Frankly, I would say...DO WANT!! (Even though I have never played WH:fantasy proper) This idea can work really good. If I may expand and elaborate on this idea; maybe it can work like a "neutral" Artficier skill but instead of creating one mini-artefact for one stack, one could make one banner-artefact to bolster the entire army. This is how I am thinking this concept:
1: It should be an army banner (chapter banner-esque), not carried by a stack but rather an imp/squire/skeleton/goblin/Naga? at the hero's side so that it is always visible and cannot be removed. This means that like a mini-artifact its effect is permanent for the troops (even resurrected ones). It should also be only one so that the player dont need to use a huge amount of resources to build one since only one confers bonuses to every stack. Any banner of any level should give 1+ morale (its one the general purposes of any banner). This banner is "carried" (not physically) in a sort of exclusive war machine slot (not a fourth one).
2: Like mini-artifacts, the power and cost of the banner depends on the hero level. It can be built in any town but should require an auxiliary building like blacksmith. While making and customizing this banner, there should be a 3D screen so one can review how it will look in action. Low level= poor but cheap banners. High lvl= mighty but expensive. With progress, these banners can have more slots to issue bonuses (attack/denfece +, speed, morale, luck, magic prot. etc.) There should be a maximum of 3-4 slots for bonuses.
3: As the banner "evolves" in power, this should be showed graphically too, increasing its size and flashiness with each level.
I like the idea of banners becasue it would make battles a lot more epic and emphatic and bring fourth the factions' iconography. However, this how I would like to see the banner concept.
____________
It is time to kick ass and raise skeletons, and I am all out of dark energy.
|
|
Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
|
|
posted May 18, 2011 12:47 PM |
|
|
It has been quite silent here for a long long time...however something popped in my mind and I wanted to suggest it: Alternate Buildings
It would work similar to alternate creatures...you can either build this, or that building. This could apply to many buildings, but a good idea could be making special buildings either Might or Magic based and such...or the mage guild advancing into this or that school...an example for the latter.
Let's say a town starts with (H5 style, I do not know H6 that good) Summoning, Destructive and Light) on the first 2 levels, a spell of each of these schools appears. Instead of just "mage guild level 3" you can now upgrade it to, f.e. "Wizard Guild" (Summoning+Destructive), "Creator's Guild" (Summoning+Light) OR Sorcerors Guild (Destructive & light. Now only spells of the schools upported by the guild can appear. And on level 5, you choose either the "Grey Guild", "Red Guild" OR "White Guild"...you got the idea?
____________
ICTC announced
|
|
Brukernavn
Hero of Order
|
|
posted May 18, 2011 01:04 PM |
|
|
|
H6 already introduced alternative buildings, where you can only build two of a possible four special/unique buildings that serve different purposes in each town. Having more of the same type increases the effect (somewhat like having several marketplaces) so you'll always have a dilemma in choosing what building to build.
|
|
Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
|
|
posted May 18, 2011 01:21 PM |
|
|
didn't know that. I like the idea, though (Yeah, sth about H6 I like, finally  )
Another possible feature that I had in mind a long time but is missing here as idea:
Buildings need space
It's as simple as that. Instead of jsut building buildings and they are automatically placed, you have to place them in an overview Town screen and they need to have the space there. A town may not have the space for all buildings. However, with the developing town, definitely more space will come, step by step - a city, after all, HAS more space than a village^^
A possible addition could be that, like in Civ5, you can buy additional space for money.
____________
ICTC announced
|
|
DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
|
|
posted May 18, 2011 08:16 PM |
|
|
Some "old" suggestions ..
Regarding Day and Night circle..
Would really like to see it..
4 circles..
Day - advantage for factions like Haven, and creatures related to light..
Sunset - neutral (for balance purposes)
True Night - advantage for factions like Necropolis , Dungeon, and creatures related to darkness..
Sunrise - neutral (for balance)
Also some creatures having bonuses against others like Djinns dealing more damage to Ifrits etc..
Another thing is Dungeon for example gives more bonuses to creatures related to Darkness as there is limited light underground..
Weather conditions giving bonuses or decreasing power of some spells or magic schools.. Example rain decreases effect or duration of fire based spells.. Heat decreases water spells etc.
High level spells like Solar Eclipse -to increase power of Night related factions or creatures, duration depends on Hero's spellpower.
Lunar Eclipse to decrease power of Moon related creatures like Werewolf for example..
Territorial buffs.. Like for example Infernal hero able to teleport Armies to Sheogh for several turns where Inferno creatures have strong advantage..
or Flood.. where Sanctuary creatures movement increases, while enemy's movement decreases.. etc..
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted May 18, 2011 10:55 PM |
|
Edited by MattII at 23:02, 18 May 2011.
|
You arrange creatures in your army as they'd appear on the battlefield (as explained here).
Also, luck doesn't give you the chance of extra damage, it just modifies your existing damage range, ie, +/-X (limited to 5 either way) luck cuts the bottom/top X0% off your damage range, so that say a Peasant with +2 luck does 1.2 - 2 damage, whereas one with -2 luck does 1 - 1.8 damage.
|
|
Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 09:49 AM |
|
|
are that proposals or reactions, matt?
____________
ICTC announced
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 11:31 AM |
|
Edited by MattII at 11:33, 22 May 2011.
|
|
Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 11:47 AM |
|
|
ah. good. a striking name for the luck thing?
also... for the first thing about unit placement!!!
for the luck thingy. What luck represents is critical strikes...
____________
ICTC announced
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 01:14 PM |
|
|
Quote:
for the luck thingy. What luck represents is critical strikes...
That being the case, why have a variable damage in the first place?
|
|
Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
|
|
posted May 22, 2011 01:21 PM |
|
|
hmmm, from the logic point of view, you have a point, definitely. I, personally, like the old system but you definitely have a point...
____________
ICTC announced
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
