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JollyJoker
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posted December 15, 2011 03:41 PM |
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Quote:
if you push some stuff...
That's TWO, you and some stuff. So where does the stuff come from? Also, pushing stuff needs an environment - where does that come from?
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Fauch
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posted December 15, 2011 04:21 PM |
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hum indeed. though do only one force necessarily mean there is nothing else? and where do that force comes from?
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 15, 2011 04:30 PM |
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You are doing it wrong. The Christian explanation is "science says that something can't be made out of nothing so it's obvious that God has created the world". Because that's how it's written in the Bible. On the other hand you can't see the Big Bang or any other theory mentioned in the Bible or any other mainstream holy book. Therefore only the God explanation remains and it is therefore the correct one. See? Simple.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 15, 2011 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
hum indeed. though do only one force necessarily mean there is nothing else? and where do that force comes from?
Yes, one force means there is nothing else, because that force created everything else.
The question is indeed where that force would be coming from. My question was, if we assume a force outside of everything matter-based senses, artificial or organic, can detect, that would be responsible for "creation" - why would we assume ONE force only? Doesn't seem that intuitive to me.
My idea would be either two, maybe three, but not more than 4 - but not one. One makes no sense to me, and for a couple of reasons, actually.
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Fauch
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posted December 15, 2011 05:31 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 17:31, 15 Dec 2011.
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hum yes, I missed that small bit. so well, only one force, thus it can interract with nothing, and if it interracts with itself, then it means we have 2 separate objects. kinda like parts of our body can interract with other parts of our body. I mean, you have a whole, the body, but it can still be divided into tinier parts, so it's not really ONE single object.
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baklava
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posted December 15, 2011 06:02 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:20, 15 Dec 2011.
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I never heard of the second Big Bang, JJ. Though it's a ***** when that second Sun starts scorching in July.
Whether the universe came to be when God slept with Mrs God or not is not really something I like to dwell too much into, and since the "two forces" you speak of are pretty much a mystification of the fact that living creatures need to make sexytime in order to make a third one, there really isn't anything else to add, methinks.
MOD EDIT: Language.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted December 15, 2011 06:48 PM |
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Energy cannot be created or destroyed, if your going to argue with science, remember the basics please. Ergo our universe isn't the produce of the 'first' big bang, nor the last, it is simply another link in the chain. Energy expands and compresses, to and from a single point. If you cannot comprehend eternity then you shouldn't be here at all, religious or other-wise  .
Why it does that? Matter cannot think, therefore it is 'reasonless'.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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baklava
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posted December 15, 2011 07:22 PM |
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I tried comprehending eternity a few times, but I always gave up halfway to the end. I tried asking all kinds of different people but it seems like no one wants to spoil the ending for me.
Could you help me out with that? I mean, aside from the first law of thermodynamics bit, I got that one several years ago and God I wish the rest was that simple.
What I was really trying to say is summed up nicely in the "single point" part of your post. JJ and me were talking about singular and dual catalysts for (or products of) what we foolishly named "creating stuff". The point I was trying to transform some surrounding energy into (or, in layman's terms, "make") was about whether the fact that it takes two cows to give birth to a third cow can be applied to deities.
I love the bit at the end, though, where you say that matter constantly expands and collapses back into a single point because it's reasonless. It's just like the OSM, that single point being discussing religion.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted December 15, 2011 07:31 PM |
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'Make' is a horrible term, mould is a far better term to describe this process. But I wanted to avoid this, since to explain it I'd have to abandon neutral ground . ( )
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
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posted December 15, 2011 07:38 PM |
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Bak, what's the matter, playing dumb? We are not talking of two Gods making a third one, or two universes birthing a third.
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baklava
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posted December 15, 2011 07:38 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 19:41, 15 Dec 2011.
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@Tsar Right, that's what I wanted to say. "The point I was trying to mould".
@JJ I'm not playing dumb, I actually am dumb enough to not understand how that makes your points any more legitimate.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
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posted December 15, 2011 08:35 PM |
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I didn't present any. I wanted to know what is actually speaking for just ONE deity as opposed to more.
Didn't get an answer, yet, except some bullsnowing from you. If you have no good point just say so. I'm just asking.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted December 16, 2011 08:02 AM |
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I'm updating my asnwer to the OP, to show signs of personal evolution ().
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Why does god give diseases?
Situation might determine reason, but trying to figure out god, is a tad bit out of anybody's league.
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Why did god allow humans to eat "The apple of eden"?
Whether the apple of Eden ever existed may be contested, regardless I think there's a valuable lesson to be learnt, that dear Xerox addressed. Humans souls are shards of the maker, ergo we have the same aptitude as him. (to a certain degree I'd imagine) Humans must sacrifice their own personal 'godlikeness' to be able to co-exist, eg: you have 100% freedom, you cannot co-exist peacefully with another '100% freedom' being, it's impossible unless you compromise. I believe the business with the apple of eden was to present to the two humans, that now that there are two of them, there is something they cannot do.
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Why cant he interfere with human free will?
We are 'like' him, gods in our own right, he cannot interfere with human will unless the human surrenders himself to gods will. God cannot be identified from a single situation.
Why cant he help this world?You see 50,80 and someties 150 people die everyday as by television? One might say that humanity brought such despair to itself.If so,how does believing in god aid in such matters when "Pain brought by humans" is irredeemable.
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Power corrupts.Absolute power corrupts absolutely.Could this be an indication that "God" is corrupt?
If he is not "Human" and we cannot understand him,how does the bible make understanding him possible?
If we dont know anything about the divine,how do we know there is exactly one God?
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How do religiious people explain dinosaurs,that about 5 major extinction events occured in the past and that the Human is a joke of creation in comparioson to dinosaurs.
160 million years dinosaures reigned this planet.The modern human dates back to 200k years before, 0.2 milions of years.
Why did he create diseases in the first place?
Believe it or not, but I seriously see that humans are not native to Earth, mainly due to the disease factor, and our ability to attempt/control this world to a certain degree. "We did not know disease till the white-man came" We are still evolving to suit this world and this should answer the disease related questions too. This isn't our home; we do not belong here, read between the lines and you might see that too.
I'll edit and update in abit; right now, I gotta run
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Fauch
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posted December 16, 2011 09:49 AM |
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Quote:
Believe it or not, but I seriously see that humans are not native to Earth, mainly due to the disease factor, and our ability to attempt/control this world to a certain degree. "We did not know disease till the white-man came" We are still evolving to suit this world and this should answer the disease related questions too. This isn't our home; we do not belong here, read between the lines and you might see that too.
excuse me, but even if we weren't originally born on earth, I don't see how this isn't our home. wherever we decide to live, this is our home, except maybe if there are already people living there and we need to depossess them to take their land.
note that it is obvious humans indeed did that (at least with animals) but personnaly I didn't. I found an unoccupied place where I could live, and as far as it is unoccupied, why couldn't I claim it as my home?
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antipaladin
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posted December 16, 2011 01:21 PM |
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intro: im going to regred posting here:
wanted to share my two cents:
first realigion based people , when asked something difficult will answer "the ways of gods are above our simple minds" i envy the amount of naiveity they have to belive in simple stuff.. like one of the bibles started :" In the begining of time men invited god" becouse people ware curiouse but stupid,they had to give perpses for netures amezing feats. we say it clearly as lighting gods, war gods, and sea gods(aicent gods penthaeon, pagenism). Then To intruct morals and colture laws (old testament) to change current morals and laws (new testament) or to force your own idles on people to change massivly colture law,and morals and premote war on them if they dissagree (later chrisnity and islam).
Why was monotheism invented? to save money,if 1000 people belive 1 and not 1000 gods,meaning we can build less shrines,lets make him all powerfull and savethe money and power to controll 1000 deitys...
religouse laws and colture morals might have some scientific meanings. but in the end they all have 1 thing in common, they coused a whole lot of blood shed. and no not the people behind it,but they did,couse if you didnt put a gun in hes hands,he wouldn't shoot.
thing is in time those people becoume so self centerd and blind that blasphmy is not a dirty word,but reason to kill the infidel. moreever the close mindess of such.
Ill take you to the story of Templers.
France middle ages, After some crusades they becoume rather powerfull political and miletery force.untill that is the church decided to plot against them,poisoned the mind of the king,and they ware claimed heretics. why did the church do so, is there any Legite explantion?
How about the inquisition? is there ANY legite explention to that monstrocity? and the witch hunts? c'man, they're just looking for excuse to kill. it's not that im against realigion, it's that im REALLLY against realigion. infact if it ware up to me i think it should be banned from existence. it surved it perpese,made scientific prograss , history claimed it bloody and lets go finish it. please understand that no good can come by pushing you belives elseware,or even beliving entites in the first place. if there ware god, if it was a he , why would he really care to us mortals? i know i wouldn't 
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types in obscure english
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Fauch
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posted December 16, 2011 05:10 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 17:12, 16 Dec 2011.
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still looks like quite a superficial analysis 
religions aren't the only cause of bloodshed and not all religious people are killers. in another hand, you often boast with pictures of yourself in military outfit, but I personaly do not believe that dudes carrying automatic weapons will ever bring peace to the world.
for example, I remember reading the future of an illusion by Freud. it was quite some time ago, from what I remember, he was quite critical about religion but still emitted the doubt that having people believe in something false (but relieving) might be better than confronting them with the truth. I do not talk about forcing them to believe, but there are people who need to believe to bear their own life.
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antipaladin
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posted December 17, 2011 12:15 AM |
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few notes on your replay:
it's true that by carrying a weapon im not a more tool of peace then a people who shoots someone however i'm carring the gun in order to make sure that my loved once will sleep safely while i don't.
Thing is that people view Spirituality and Realigion as one.
Those Primal minds that controll (past present and future) will exploit the naivness of they're fallowers to there gains wether it is to preduce what they need or to take what they have.
thing is people continue to use it against the humenity.
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Elodin
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posted December 17, 2011 12:48 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 02:36, 17 Dec 2011.
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A suit is underway in Utah to contest the state's bigamy law. What say ye, should polygamy be legalized in the US (or wherever you are from?)
Clicky
A polygamous family made famous on a reality television show is asking a Utah federal judge not to block their challenge of the state's bigamy law.
Kody Brown and wives Meri, Janelle, Christine and Robyn filed a lawsuit in Salt Lake City's U.S. District Court in July. Oral arguments in the case are set for Friday before U.S. District Judge Clark Waddoups.
The stars of the TLC show "Sister Wives" said the law is unconstitutional because it prohibits them from living together and criminalizes their private sexual relationships.
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Easterday, who left Utah and is currently married to two women, told The Associated Press he believes the Browns are right to fear a bigamy prosecution.
"I know from experience that they do prosecute," Easterday said. I think they should change the law over the entire country. Why it is that in some places a woman and a woman can be married, but a man can't have another wife?"
Polygamy in Utah and across much of the Intermountain West is a legacy of 19th century Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons abandoned the practice of plural marriage in the 1890s as a condition of Utah's statehood. The church now excommunicates members found engaging in polygamy.
An estimated 38,000 self-described Mormon fundamentalists continue the practice, believing it brings exaltation in heaven. Most keep their way of life a secret. In most cases, polygamous men are legally married to their first wives and marry subsequent brides only religious ceremonies.
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Smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted December 17, 2011 02:16 AM |
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Edited by Smithey at 02:50, 17 Dec 2011.
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Things I like about religion are
1. Religious people are always trying to come up with answers that make no sense, as in who the hell are you convincing ? Me or yourself ? Ridiculousness of some answers is pitiful, you have faith lets leave it at that as that's pretty much the only thing relevant...
2. Non-religious people are always trying to find a way to prove that they are right as in why the hell do you care ? It cant be proven right or wrong anyhow so why bother with it anyway ? Are you so insecure that you need to justify your lack of belief, just live and let live....
3. Different religions and religious on non religious people always find a way to bring out the best in humanity when they encounter each other, its heartwarming all the love religion brings into our lives... Thats what its there for after all.... not
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Elodin
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posted December 17, 2011 02:41 AM |
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One of the most famous "new atheists" died today, Christopher Hitchens. Below is an article by a evangelical about his friendship with Hitchens that I found interesting.
Clicky
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