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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 21, 2013 10:16 PM |
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Zenofex,I hope I can answer partialy your question.
Imagine a family-father and son.The father is considered by his son as omnipresent and allmighty in his first years of life.
The little kid can't imagine the world without his father.
When he would grow up,he can live on his own and he understands that the earlier understanding about his father was premature.
So first question-can the little boy live without his father?
Answer-very unlikely(if the mother is not present).
Second question-if the father is now limited in time and space(like all men are),should his son deny his father's existance?Should he call him with other name,something different from "father"?
Should he deny his father's help,if the help is not "almighty"?
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 21, 2013 10:23 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 22:27, 21 May 2013.
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So we should pray as little children, but when we grow up, the Church is pretty much useless?
It actually makes sense (in some way at least), though in my country most of the Church followers are very old people who certainly grew up (and probably in most cases weren't that religious as "younger adults"). So I'm afraid it's not really a way the Christianity goes on.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 21, 2013 10:28 PM |
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Quote:
So we should pray as little children, but when we grow up, the Church is pretty much useless?
The Church is useless FOR YOU,if YOU CHOOSE for yourself it to be.
That's true for great meny things,BTW.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 21, 2013 10:31 PM |
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From what you say growing up means understanding that the God is not almighty and that prayers aren't as powerful as we thought. The Church depends in many cases on prayers, therefore growing up also means that the Church isn't for us.
Basically what you're saying is: the Church is for "children". And I can agree with that, but I'm not sure if the Church would agree. 
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 21, 2013 10:49 PM |
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Quote:
Answer-very unlikely(if the mother is not present).
Unlikely =/= impossible. Furthermore, every boy/girl reaches a stage in his/her life when the father/mother are no longer necessary for survival and for some that stage can be reached quite early. So if you're not implying that the humanity can reach a stage where it doesn't need God for survival, your example is pretty flawed.
Quote:
Second question-if the father is now limited in time and space(like all men are),should his son deny his father's existance?Should he call him with other name,something different from "father"?
Should he deny his father's help,if the help is not "almighty"?
What help? We're talking about cases where the father allows "bad things" to happen to the child even when he can prevent them but chooses not to. And again, a flawed example. Almost every child knows his father and/or his mother (with very few exceptions) and can confirm their existence every day. But so far nobody can really claim to have met God in person and remain out of a specialized institution, dealing with people who have seen God in person and similar cases.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 21, 2013 10:50 PM |
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Quote:
that prayers aren't as powerful as we thought.
From your posting I conclude that you never considered prayers powerful,so I think this "we" is not in place.
Well,another aspect of my understanding-prayers could have different power for me,accordingly to the way I treat them.
I don't really now how much power they can have.
@Zenofex,I think markkur have answered about the help question and the choice far more clearly than I can,so I live it to that.
About the "need for survival"-in my example the child needs his father for survival in the very early age of his life.
Then there is a period,where the need is no longer present,but love between father and child remains.
Or do you say-let use our parents as long as we can and dump them afterwards becuase we are selfish,egocentric pretenders?
What do you feel for your parents,Zenofex?
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 21, 2013 11:26 PM |
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Look, this analogy is so poor that it's practically worthless. A child usually grows to love its parents but there are more than enough cases where it doesn't happen exactly like that. Abused children don't love their parents, they usually hate them (or at least one of them). Abandoned children have little reasons to care about their parents. Children, which have grown without any or with very little parental guidance (because of the parents couldn't be bothered with their offspring or some other reason) have mixed feelings about their parents at best. And so on. And again - the biological parent as well as his/her actions and inactions don't require you to read through millennia-old texts dozens of times until you find some pseudo-justification for their existence by twisting the logic until it no longer serves its original purpose - they are far more "apparent", as are their virtues and flaws.
And love =/= obedience. That's pretty blunt, I don't think it needs further explanation.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 21, 2013 11:27 PM |
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I don't think he feels he owes them obedience and if he doesn't obey they have every right to torture him. Besides God is not a parent, saying God is like a father is a Freudian approach and Freud used that to show the psyche behind the idea of God, that is, why we INVENTED God. So the more you talk about how father-like God is to you, the more you strengthen his atheistic analysis.
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 21, 2013 11:27 PM |
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Quote:
From your posting I conclude that you never considered prayers powerful,so I think this "we" is not in place.
When discussing the Christianity, I like to think of myself as a Christian just to understand you more.
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Or do you say-let use our parents as long as we can and dump them afterwards becuase we are selfish,egocentric pretenders?
Actually I think I am an orphan which doesn't remember his parents.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 22, 2013 12:50 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 00:53, 22 May 2013.
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You do not NEED a god to accept the world the way it is. Ockham's Razor, you know?
By rejecting God you are living in denial of the world as it is.
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Well, it's pretty much like this - nothing can happen without God (if something can happen without God, then God is limited); if something happens, then God allows it to happen; given that God does not prevent something from happening even though he has the power to do so (because his power is unlimited, as is he), then he approves of it for one reason or another.
Poppycock. God does not have to direct every raindrop in order to be all-powerful. His creation has natural and moral laws. Violating either means there are natural consequences.
God made man as a free moral agent. Man can chose to obey God or to be a rebel and live like an idiot. God said, "Thou shalt not murder." If someone goes out and kills he is acting against God's will. God not controlling everyone's every step does not make him not all-powerful.
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If you want to be philosophical, the above can also be asked as a question: Is free will the point where God's powers end extent (other than the power to forcefully submit someone) end? If you say "yes", then I can agree that God may not necessarily approve of something even if he allows it - but then how can God remain all-powerful and unlimited? If you say "no", then there's no difference between what God allows and what God approves.
God chooses to allow each person to take his own path. That in no way means God does not have the sheer raw ability to stop a person from committing some action. God allows you to plant "good crops" and "bad crops." You will reap what you sow when you stand before him at the end of your journey on Earth. That is a spiritual law of the universe.
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Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
People may "Teee-heeee" and "Haaa haaaaa, Oh look at what I'm getting away with, God must not exist" but when they stand before God when time shall be no more and they are called to account for their "works" there will be no giggling about immoral actions.
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Untrue. Incorrect translations would be identified by now by a site like Bible Gateway. If you check the translations then you see that the turn of phrase is "departure of fruit". You are not the almighty Elodin who knows the real truth or something.
You are clueless. Bible Gateway is a free online tool and does not judge the accuracy of translations or the accuracy of translations of individual verses. I showed an article that discussed the actual Hebrew words that proved the correct translation was premature birth, not miscarriage and quoted a translation that translated the verse properly.
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I don't think he feels he owes them obedience and if he doesn't obey they have every right to torture him. Besides God is not a parent, saying God is like a father is a Freudian approach and Freud used that to show the psyche behind the idea of God, that is, why we INVENTED God. So the more you talk about how father-like God is to you, the more you strengthen his atheistic analysis.
Nah, atheists invented the silly dogma that God does not exist. The idea that the universe created itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing or that it is eternal is quite irrational and contradicts known science and observations. Of course Jesus spoke about people who shut their eyes tight and stuff fingers in their ears spiritually, refusing to respond to God's revelation to them. People who reject light will remain in darkness. Atheists being blind and deaf to spiritual things in no way implies the spiritual things don't exist.
God is a Father spiritually. He did not have sex to create us like human fathers do to create a child with their wife.
God is also Judge of the World and has every right to judge you. You said in the "Rights" thread that humans have no innate rights so why are you complaining about anything God does? I think it is pretty silly for people to judge God but say God has no right to judge them. Heh.
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Revelation
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2013 01:04 AM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 01:06, 22 May 2013.
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By rejecting God you are living in denial of the world as it is.
No one is rejecting God, Elodin. People are simply believing he exists or not, always without any evidence of his existence. Deal with it.
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God not controlling everyone's every step does not make him not all-powerful.
By "everyone" you also mean natural disasters like a church destroyed by an earthquake? Do they also have free will?
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I showed an article that discussed the actual Hebrew words that proved the correct translation was premature birth, not miscarriage.
You said that it proved it, but you didn't say why and I don't see any proof. So it's word against word. I actually explained why would it be stupid to say that it was about a child, and I'm waiting for your further explanation more than "Everyone's life has the same value".
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Nah, atheists invented the silly dogma that God does not exist. The idea that the universe created itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing or that it is eternal is quite irrational and contradicts known science and observations.
Nah, theists invented the silly dogma that God does exist. The idea that the God created itself out of a steady state of absolute nothing or that it is eternal is quite irrational and contradicts known science and observations.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 24, 2013 11:41 AM |
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Elodin,I would ask you respectfully a question.
I could write you HCM of course,but since we have temptation thread as well as religion thread,my question belongs here in the thread.
In the New Testament in some speech of Christ He mentions that the temptation is coming through the RIGHT eye into the soul of the human.Why doesn't He mention the LEFT eye of BOTH eyes in his speech?
What is the difference?
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 24, 2013 02:28 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:32, 24 May 2013.
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Quote:
Elodin,I would ask you respectfully a question.
I could write you HCM of course,but since we have temptation thread as well as religion thread,my question belongs here in the thread.
In the New Testament in some speech of Christ He mentions that the temptation is coming through the RIGHT eye into the soul of the human.Why doesn't He mention the LEFT eye of BOTH eyes in his speech?
What is the difference?
I think this is the passage you are referring to:
Quote:
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Proverbs generally are intended to convey one point and should not be over-analyzed. Jesus was speaking in hyperbole. There are places in the Scripture where right hand and right eye have significance but I don't think those particular details are of import to this passage.
The meaning is "Do whatever it takes to get sin out of your life so you don't burn in hell." Forsaking sin, turning from sin to God, is what repentance is.
Jesus and his disciples preached repentance of sin. Some organizations that call themselves by the name of Christ have forsaken his doctrines and say, "I'm ok, you're ok, we're all ok." But we are not all ok according to Christ and the message he told his church to preach and the message that his apostles in fact did preach, as recorded in the New Testament Scriptures.
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Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 24, 2013 03:05 PM |
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Another one from me, I'd like to hear your thoughts Elodin and you too master_learn.
Who is this "disciple whom Jesus loved?", is it John? And some say that he might still be alive today but here's what the Gospel says:
Quote:
Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”
22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 24, 2013 03:36 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:37, 24 May 2013.
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Verse 24 identifies him as John, since it is in the gospel of John. According to extra-Biblical sources John died of extreme old age in Ephesus. The other apostles were all murdered by Rome.
In Verse 22 Jesus was just saying, "Don't worry about about John, Peter, just do what I called you to do."
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 24, 2013 03:44 PM |
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Also, why Mark, Matthew and Luke's gospels are so different from John's and John mentions many events not recorded in the first three?
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 24, 2013 04:10 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:10, 24 May 2013.
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Each gospel emphasizes different things about Christ.
Matthew emphasizes fulfilled prophecy, with lots of references to the Old Testament Scriptures. It shows him to be the "Son of David," the promised Christ.
Mark emphasizes Christ as one who came to serve and to be the Suffering Servant Isaiah prophesied. Jesus is always going and doing, pressed with the urgency of his mission.
Luke emphasizes Jesus's humanity and that he is Savior for all mankind. It also emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit. The book of Acts was also written by Luke, by the way, and you'll find a strong emphasis on the Holy Spirit there too, as well as the worldwide outreach of the church.
John emphasizes the deity of Jesus. It has the various "I AM" sayings where Jesus claimed to be God ("I AM") himself.
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Revelation
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 24, 2013 04:15 PM |
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That's great, I hadn't given much thought to those facts. Thank you Elodin.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 24, 2013 04:50 PM |
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@Elodin,thank you for your answer about the eyes.
@Drakon-Deus,I haven't thought on the matter of who the follower is,so I'll be fine with what Elodin says about him.
I was a bit surprized that artu have read something from John's version(the begining).
____________
"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 04:58 PM |
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It has the various "I AM" sayings where Jesus claimed to be God ("I AM") himself.
Just being curious - did he say that he's actually God, not "equal to God", "son of God" or that he and "his father are one"? I can't find any verse where he says "I am God", but maybe I just don't see it.
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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