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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 20, 2013 06:45 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:47, 20 May 2013.
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I never said Jesus ordered it, however it was God's will, it was in NT and the point is even children who can't think for themselves "had it coming." Which was the point Markkur related to historical conditions, my objection was, that historical approach is not compatible with religions.
God withdrew his protection of Jerusalem when Jerusalem mounted an armed rebellion under a false Christ against Rome. Rome crushed them.
I fail to see how you can blame God for anything Rome did.
Really? You weren't speaking of him as such a passive force a few posts ago, actually your exact words were instead Jerusalem killed God (in Christ), embraced a false God, and brought judgement on itself.. And this is a prophecy, so it is definitely God's deliberate will.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 20, 2013 07:20 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:24, 20 May 2013.
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I never said Jesus ordered it, however it was God's will, it was in NT and the point is even children who can't think for themselves "had it coming." Which was the point Markkur related to historical conditions, my objection was, that historical approach is not compatible with religions.
God withdrew his protection of Jerusalem when Jerusalem mounted an armed rebellion under a false Christ against Rome. Rome crushed them.
I fail to see how you can blame God for anything Rome did.
Really? You weren't speaking of him as such a passive force a few posts ago, actually your exact words were instead Jerusalem killed God (in Christ), embraced a false God, and brought judgement on itself.. And this is a prophecy, so it is definitely God's deliberate will.
God's judgment in withdrawing his protection in no way implied he approved of Romans killing babies. You don't see verses with Jesus saying, "Oh, boy, Titus (Roman Emperor) is going to go kill me some babies!!!" Jerusalem rebelled, God withdrew his protection, and the Romans crushed Jerusalem for rebelling against Rome.
The verses I quoted showed Jesus weeping over the coming destruction of Jerusalem. Judgment is never something God takes lightly.
However, every life belongs to God and he can certainly take it when he wishes.
Oh, and a prophecy is a prediction of the future. Not necessarily what God wants to happen. In fact Jesus said he wanted Jerusalem to repent.
Also, prophecies about judgement are always contingent on the people's response. When Jonah preached to Ninevah and Ninevah repented God showed mercy and did not judge that generation.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 20, 2013 07:36 PM |
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That is your interpretation, Markkur's is different, he thinks those were the ways of that particular time. And as I said, that kind of historical approach only works if you consider religion as a historical/sociological concept as well. When you consider it as timeless message of God, things eventually change.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 20, 2013 07:57 PM |
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God's judgment in withdrawing his protection in no way implied he approved of Romans killing babies.
Oh, but he did! How can anything happen without God's approval? 
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 20, 2013 08:05 PM |
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Edited by Hobbit at 20:05, 20 May 2013.
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Well, it's not really clear if angels appeared with God's approval. In fact - it's not really clear if even God himself appeared with his approval. 
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Horn of the
Abyss on AcidCave
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted May 20, 2013 08:09 PM |
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God's self-approval is the main axiom of the Abrahamic religions. 
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Hobbit
Supreme Hero
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posted May 20, 2013 08:11 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted May 20, 2013 09:55 PM |
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The German Luther translation is leaning to that as well.
So obviously the harm for the fruit is already done - we are not talking about premature birth, but about a departure of the fruit - a miscarriage.
No, those versions translate the passage incorrectly. I quoted a discussion of the actual Hebrew words. The translation I quoted translates the passage correctly.
Sure, Elodin, they are all wrong and you are right. Yeah, sure.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted May 20, 2013 10:12 PM |
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I think it is untrue, that everything that happens on this Planet has God's approval. If you had joked/stated; since God allowed it, it's as good as an approval, you'd be much closer to the truth.
If God "made me obey" and be kind, never kill, always think nice stuff of others, conserve energy, clean my room, save treed catz and every picture-perfect-expectation from all people on terra-firma and even aqua-sorta-jella, my life would be devout slavery...all for the good ofc.
As much as I detest that a disease is going to take me outta here much earlier than the avg. and despite all the tragedy life brings globally I now think Life on earth was perfectly made.
Anyone here that thinks that's bunk, I would love to hear how you better life on earth.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 20, 2013 10:25 PM |
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You do not NEED a god to accept the world the way it is. Ockham's Razor, you know?
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted May 20, 2013 10:43 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 22:46, 20 May 2013.
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The German Luther translation is leaning to that as well.
So obviously the harm for the fruit is already done - we are not talking about premature birth, but about a departure of the fruit - a miscarriage.
No, those versions translate the passage incorrectly. I quoted a discussion of the actual Hebrew words. The translation I quoted translates the passage correctly.
Sure, Elodin, they are all wrong and you are right. Yeah, sure.
You picked a version because it said what you want it to say. I picked a version because it said what the original language says. Big difference.
AND I showed in two other posts that God equates human life in the womb to human life outside the womb. Murdering either is unacceptable to God and he will call for an accounting for the murder on the day of judgement.
Human leaders may "Tee-heee and Haaa-haaaaaa" at the murder of innocent babies via abortion but God is not amused.
Everything that happens is NOT God's will. For instance, God does not want anyone to perish but will force no one to repent.
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2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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Zenofex
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posted May 20, 2013 10:56 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:57, 20 May 2013.
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I think it is untrue, that everything that happens on this Planet has God's approval. If you had joked/stated; since God allowed it, it's as good as an approval, you'd be much closer to the truth.
Well, it's pretty much like this - nothing can happen without God (if something can happen without God, then God is limited); if something happens, then God allows it to happen; given that God does not prevent something from happening even though he has the power to do so (because his power is unlimited, as is he), then he approves of it for one reason or another.
If you want to be philosophical, the above can also be asked as a question: Is free will the point where God's powers end extent (other than the power to forcefully submit someone) end? If you say "yes", then I can agree that God may not necessarily approve of something even if he allows it - but then how can God remain all-powerful and unlimited? If you say "no", then there's no difference between what God allows and what God approves.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 20, 2013 11:06 PM |
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The German Luther translation is leaning to that as well.
So obviously the harm for the fruit is already done - we are not talking about premature birth, but about a departure of the fruit - a miscarriage.
No, those versions translate the passage incorrectly. I quoted a discussion of the actual Hebrew words. The translation I quoted translates the passage correctly.
Sure, Elodin, they are all wrong and you are right. Yeah, sure.
You picked a version because it said what you want it to say. I picked a version because it said what the original language says.
Untrue. Incorrect translations would be identified by now by a site like Bible Gateway. If you check the translations then you see that the turn of phrase is "departure of fruit". You are not the almighty Elodin who knows the real truth or something.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted May 21, 2013 03:18 PM |
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If you want to be philosophical, the above can also be asked as a question: Is free will the point where God's powers end extent (other than the power to forcefully submit someone) end? If you say "yes", then I can agree that God may not necessarily approve of something even if he allows it - but then how can God remain all-powerful and unlimited?
Well, ofc it's Yes. As far as the latter, just like in our own lives we can have power and choose not to use it; putting a limit on that power does not mean I'm powerless, I can revoke it any time I need. The limitation that I've set are limits that I've imposed by my own power and in some cases, it's made me quite nice chap; i.e you know the drill; someone's had too much to drink and decides he's Superman-Arrrgh! and for some stupid reason wants to make krypton out of you but you take care of his sorry-hind-quarters and instead of smiting him to la-la-land, you get him safely to bed.
My vision of God's rule is a very simple one. It works also just like my real life as a Father and Grandfather. i.e a possible unfolding;
1. I own a farm and have some serious space, Nature is at my doorstep.
2. All along I've told all children countless times about, snakes, ticks and rabid animals.
3. They ask to play in the "back-yard"
4. I say "remember what I've told you about being "alert" Nature is not a lego-set. Stay in-sight of the house, away from the pond and pay attention to what's going on around you at all times". Actually #2 had warnings in it till they...groaned.
5. I could have said no to the back-yard and provide complete protection by my Power but have decided they are old enough to live & learn away from my side.
6. A rabid coyote comes out of the woods and because they pushed my limit till they see the house as a speck, they cannot get back inside.
No matter what happens it will be my will in a sense because I allowed "life" to flow. But if one was bitten; (each would have a knife) it would never have been my desire for any of them to go through the series of shots, even if they learned a valuable lesson about stretching what I say.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 21, 2013 03:37 PM |
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Except, unlike the grandpa, you have the power to create a wonderful forest without snakes, ticks and rabid coyotes.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted May 21, 2013 04:03 PM |
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I'm not Markkur but here's my take, the Judeo-Christian one a little adapted: sin entered the garden, or the forest if you will, and people became aware that they were naked and they knew good and evil before the right time had come
They were cast out and their children got worse and worse, the Earth itself changed according to this. But after Judgement Day the Earth will be a wonderful garden again.
Why God alllowed it? Like I said pages before, I think this was all part of God's plan to make us experience good and evil before becoming All in All.
Again, it's just my interpretation of the scriptures, I don't want anyone to believe as I do.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Adrius
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Stand and fight!
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posted May 21, 2013 04:16 PM |
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I don't want anyone to believe as I do.
Because you want heaven for yourself.
I see right through your trickery.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted May 21, 2013 04:20 PM |
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Certain posters keep accusing me of preaching Ad, that's why I have to make these statements so they don't start complaining. I'd be a lot happier if we had some common ground at least.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted May 21, 2013 04:34 PM |
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Except, unlike the grandpa, you have the power to create a wonderful forest without snakes, ticks and rabid coyotes.
yeah, I stumble with that too. But for me, the longer I've thought about the elimination all bad-things I wonder what life would be like then? Joy and sorrow, Good and Bad would all be meaningless.
Life is what it is so I see my wants as dreamy notions and I have to confess Heaven is beyond my best imaginings. I have concluded I can't get-it now (which is true of far-simpler things)and will focus on the here and now. If it's all true, I'm there, if not, I'm not. I'll never say I'm doing more than trusting Christ's promise.
Cheers Artu, Ty for a nice chat.
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Zenofex
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posted May 21, 2013 09:30 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:31, 21 May 2013.
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Well, ofc it's Yes. As far as the latter, just like in our own lives we can have power and choose not to use it; putting a limit on that power does not mean I'm powerless, I can revoke it any time I need. The limitation that I've set are limits that I've imposed by my own power and in some cases, it's made me quite nice chap
Well, there's a logical obstacle here - if God limits himself in any way, even for a brief moment, he's no longer infinite ("omnipresent") and he practically admits that the humanity (and the entire world, following the same logic) can exist without him. Why would the humans owe him obedience then, except if they don't fear the threat of global genocide when he decides to "revoke" his infinite power, presence, etc.? Why should they care what God "approves" if God "allows" both good and bad things to happen without any fathomable reason? In this sense, the two words are synonyms.
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