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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 10:02 AM |
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I don't think this punishment is pyhsical, what would be the point? I think it's spiritual.
I would chastise her but with words, maybe she'd end up feeling sorry and admitting her mistake.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2013 10:04 AM |
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That's not the same thing which happened to the Devil and which will happen to all the sinners though. Your religion is pretty explicit about this stuff.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 10:08 AM |
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No it isn't. Jesus spoke of the men that didn't clothe him when he was naked, feed him when he was huingry etc, etc, that they would go to an age-lasting punishment/correction. Nothing was said about unbelievers in general.
The lake of fire is for the devil and his followers, but fire can only be a purifier in that context. God is also referred to as a consuming fire.
Perosnally, I consider the concept of a literal neverending hell as a thing taken from greek mythology and not true Christianity. But of course the church liked it cos they could keep people in line.
If one man is tortured forever, that means Jesus failed to save the world. Thus eternal torment is not true from a true Christian POV.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2013 10:16 AM |
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You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. There's torture involved, no matter if it's physical, spiritual or whatever. It also doesn't matter if it goes on for all eternity or 5 minutes. It also doesn't matter if it affects the entire human race or 1 single person. Loving someone and deliberately torturing him/her are completely incompatible concepts.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2013 10:16 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 10:19, 12 Apr 2013.
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He loves the Devil too, but Satan willingly rebelled against God.
Thats just a blatant reason to say that "Satan" is punished with a good reason. Why? Because he rebelled against god?
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Thus a place for him was made.
Hmm, so satan must be a masochistic sod to enjoy fires and flames and lava. God knows what is best for its subjects...
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I'm not sure the devil will ever be redeemed but with God all things are possible.
So satan is like a masochistic child that choose to be the enemy of its parent because of envy and pride.. So the parent sends the child to the basement of the house and locks him there forever.
Is satan supposed to be sentient? If yes, then I believe that sentient beings learn. I dont suppose that an eternity in flames will teach satan to behave or change his opinion of god.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 10:19 AM |
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The punishment is necessary for everyone to become united with God. Wouldn't you punish your child and try to bring him to the right path if you found out he started taking drugs?
Satan chose to be that way, he didn't look back. If he wanted forgiveness, I do believe God would've given it.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2013 10:20 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 10:27, 12 Apr 2013.
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The punishment is necessary for everyone to become united with God. Wouldn't you punish your child and try to bring him to the right path if you found out he started taking drugs?
Stan chose to be that way, he didn't look back. If he wanted forgiveness, I do believe God would've given it.
No. I would send my child to a rehabilitation clinic. There is no point in flaiying or locking my child in the basement forever.
Sentient beings are able to learn through dialogue and mutual understanding. Punishment is unecessary.
To my understanding, if satan is pure evil, then he/she always does evil and therefore satan does not have freewill.
How did something that always does good turn into something always that does evil?
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 12, 2013 10:21 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:23, 12 Apr 2013.
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Dude, I'm not defending anything, I'm ATTACKING Seraphim's and your idea, that you can wipe away a couple thousand years of philosophical discussion with one silly, polemic youtube-video. "The free will of the woman, not to be raped." If that's not foolish, I don't know what is.
Are you deliberately being vague? That video is not my argument, I made my argument about omnipotence long before that, it is even mentioned in my post on 50/50 agnosticism.
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a) God is a fabrication
b) If not he's evil
For the third time, that's not what I said. Read the posts again if you can't understand them correctly.
History of Rome is irrelevant but Rome accepted Christianity because it couldn't deal with it spreading any other way. Its first reaction was to torture and kill Christians in the catacombs.
Now, "thousand years of discussion, it can't be that simple" argument is a cheap one, because sometimes the king is indeed naked. Most of those discussions were made under the burden of a social-historical heritage. They are from pre-enlightenment era. Look at today's world, is any philosopher seriously debating the authenticity of the myth of Adam?
I think this is really simple, you defined a God of gaps, Seraphim told you that religion is not just the God of gaps, it actively contradicts and objects to filled gaps such as evolution. You were too arrogant to admit he had a point in there, instead you embraced the argument of apologist Christians and started to proclaim stuff that is like the reversed version of Ochham's Razor: The more indirect and unlikely the explanation, the stronger you embrace it. It doesn't suit you to be a sore loser.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 10:23 AM |
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No. I would send my child to a rehabilitation clinic. There is no point in flaiying or locking my child in the basement forever.
Sentient beings are able to learn through dialogue and mutual understanding. Punishment is unecessary.
That's your opinion, not fact. Of course it would be easy if we could all solve our problems through talk, but that cannot always be done realistically speaking. How many addicts or serial killers have stopped being that way because of talking?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2013 10:24 AM |
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It's hardly the same thing. If a kid starts taking drugs, there's an underlying reason for this, i.e. you have failed as a parent to some extent. If you have some brains, you don't start with beating the crap out of it, you start with finding that reason.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 10:27 AM |
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So corrective punsihment isn't fair to you? OK I can understand that.
But it's what I believe in because the Bible states it and I believe it to be fair. There will be punishing for those who have done things worthy of punishing.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2013 10:34 AM |
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Man, read and try to understand. If your kid is doing something wrong, then YOU have done something wrong before that. It is your creation and your responsibility. If you start directly with punishing it without giving a single thought about why is it behaving like that, you'll achieve zlich.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 11:37 AM |
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We do wrong because it's in our (corrupted) nature to sin. Because Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the garden of Eden. However I believe this was all part of God's plan to make man an outstanding creation, to make us all go through trials and tribulations so we may one day become united with God truly, after a period of learning.
If it takes some punishing to do that for some people, I don't see why not.
Thanks fred, thanks a lot. The sad part is I'm in the minority with my views, there aren't that many Christians that believe God will save everybody despite that the Bible itself says so and not just once.
For those who believe in eternal torment I say this: Jesus was sent to save the world. His parables always allude to forgiveness or separation of bad (our sinful nature) from the good parts. Do you believe He failed to save everyone, the only a few are saved and that so many will be tormented forever despite it not being God's will? I know about the narrow gate, and many take the road to damnation. But the Son of Man came to save that which was lost.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2013 11:51 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 11:56, 12 Apr 2013.
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Is there anyway we can communicate Drakon? I dont think there is anyway, so why dont you create another thread about "Embracing " the word of "jesus".
Lets agree to disagre, we cant talk or discuss. This would be like telling an OCD patient not to believe in his thoughts.
I am not sayin you are like OCD people but suffice to say that you are already talking offtopic.
You virtualluy ignored or completely misunderstood what zenofex and I said.
You are living on another reality dude.
Open another thread if you want to embrace your beliefs.
"An ex-priest once said: The religion of christianity creates an imaginary issue that it iself solves."
It deconstructs your ego and remakes it into an altered form."
It is the cause of the issue and at the same time it tries to be a cure,
It seems that we are worlds appart from communicating.
If you want to discuss, firstly make sure you understood somebodies reply or you are just doing monologue here.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 11:52 AM |
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fred certainly doesn't agree with you, he actually made sense out of what I said.
I have no problems with you or with Zenofex or artu, if you want me to stop talking to you I will stop.
This thread is about religion, how could I be off topic? I didn't start talking about gastronomy.
Ok i will stop discussing if it's what you want, I'm not forcing anything upon anyone here.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2013 12:00 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 12:04, 12 Apr 2013.
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fred certainly doesn't agree with you, he actually made sense out of what I said.
I never mentioned Fred
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I have no problems with you or with Zenofex or artu, if you want me to stop talking to you I will stop.
I am not asking you to stop talking or posting. I am asking you to be consistent. See what Zenofex wrote above. Why dont you try understand what he meant?
Why do you assume that punishment is necessary on behalf of humanity?
I dont care why the bible says, I want to know why you think punishment is necesarry?
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We do wrong because it's in our (corrupted) nature to sin.
I thought we sin because of freewill? Having the choice between Good or Bad...
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Because Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the garden of Eden. However I believe this was all part of God's plan to make man an outstanding creation, to make us all go through trials and tribulations so we may one day become united with God truly, after a period of learning.
This is monologue, no arguments taken into accoount, nothing except pure belief.
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This thread is about religion, how could I be off topic? I didn't start talking about gastronomy.
You are right.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 12:03 PM |
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I believe it is necessary because there are people who do not want to be healed. Do you think there is even one person who has done very bad things from all points of view all his life and genuinely felt sorry about it without any sort of punishment?
I'm not saying punishment will instantly turn you from sinner to saint, OR that it is the best way to solve things, far from it. But I agree with the Bible that sometimes it is necessary.
All I'm saying is my personal faith. Again, I'm not asking anyone to accept it.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2013 12:31 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 12:34, 12 Apr 2013.
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Drakon, the problem with faith is that people can either agree or disagree with it, no discussion.
Unless you want to ask something about faith you are not sure of.
Punishment in society is done to remove criminals from society or execute criminals.
Punishment in your faith, is in my opinion, too cruel.
If afterlife is eternal, then I assume that those deemed evil by god will stay in hell forever.
And what you describe as "Sometimes" punishment is necessary is wrong.
In our society, it might be necessary. However,I dont agree that it is necessary in the "Afterlife".
Should not god be able to discuss with "Evil" doers what they did and make them feel sorry? No amount of evil on this planet can ammount to infinite torture and torture itself is immoral.
You cannot teach "Evil" doers to "Repent" by torture. A loving god would not do that. If God was satan, that would make sense.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 12:34 PM |
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I wholeheartedly agree that there cannot be infinite torture, nor do I believe in it. I also don't really believe torture to be necessary but the Bible says so and I either believe all parts of the Bible or else I'm not a true Christian. I don't believe the Bible says torture will never end, it says God will be all in all. And I believe "all" really means what it means, all humans, not "all believers" or "all Christians".
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2013 12:44 PM |
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you know what i like about christianity? the morals. neighbor as friend, give even if it hurts you kinda stuff. i think, that instead of arguing over the semantics of religion(s), instead, we embrace the good things about all of them.
I dont feel anything about the "Good" stuff written there.
Love thy neighbour and stuff like that are things I learned from my parents, not from a book.
You may feel some "Warmth" from those words, I feel warmths about what my parents taught me.
If you want to enjoy the "Good" parts of religion, do so.
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only as one, can we all be better.
Take it easy though, its just a discussion about religion, in a forum, in the internet.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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