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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 11, 2013 11:55 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:57, 11 Apr 2013.
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The problem is not the time length, the problem is there is the idea of the FIRST COUPLE (and I don't buy that they symbolize a mindless single cell). In evolution species don't exist in a generation, on the opposite, generations slowly differ from their ancestors by result of accumulating mutations. There is no couple in history, no matter the date, that we can single out as the first homo sapiens, there is only a period of time that includes some primates that could mate with both earlier primates and today's homo sapiens. No matter which couple you pick as the first homo sapiens, they will be able to mate with the previous generation.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2013 12:46 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 00:48, 12 Apr 2013.
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@Mytical
Yay, christian apologetics strike again.
As artu said, the whole concept of Adam and Eve is flawed. If you are gonna go to the lenght and assume that the whole deal is "Symbolic" then how do you distinguish what is symbolic and what isnt?
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 04:08 AM |
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@ Mytical
There is a theory that Cain got married to a woman who was from an inferior race but I find it ridiculous.
“And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bore Enoch: and he built a city, and he called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.”
Some say that he already had a wife and in Nod he knew her, as in had sexual relations with her. Thus it must've been one of his sisters.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted April 12, 2013 07:47 AM |
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A whole city for a single couple?
JJ,my knowledge of the Force allows me to see you are Master Sith Lord of the Dark Side,which I respect.
Then again,if someone is to be turned to the Dark Side(tempted to do sin in Christianity),he must have a knowledge about the Force(God) as a primary condition.
So when you talk about sin,they talk about crime.When you talk about temptation,they talk about motives.When you talk about power,they think about unlimited power.
I am but a young Jedi(theist) with not fully developed knowledge of the Force(God),but I don't see anything attractive to join with(there must be something attractive in order to tempt me).
Mytical,very good point with the other people the children of Adam and Eve come to contact.To have both devine and lesser origin.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 08:13 AM |
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Well since they lived for hundreds of years, who really knows? And if the other theory is true, why isn't the creation of the sub-humans ever mentioned?
I am but a young Padawan.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2013 08:54 AM |
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Quote:
The bible does not necessarily contradict evolution, nor the world/universe being billions of years old. Let me explain. Even if we take the 7 days to be literal..and not figurative, it doesn't contradict it. Right about now, quite a few people are raising their eyebrow in Spock style..asking "What drugs is Mytical on, and why is he not sharing." but..as much as I am NOT a christian..there is a logical reason why it does SEEM to contradict it, but doesn't.
The reason is Eden itself. Let me start at the beginning. Ok so god made man..Adam. No time frame is given between that and when he made Eve (well no SPECIFIC time frame. Remember until they ate from the tree of knowledge they were IMMORTAL. One day was just like another, and time was not really kept. So it could have been hours..or it could have been EONS. Now Eve is in the picture, and again..no specific time frame is given before the serpent tempts her. Could be hours, could be billions of years. Outside of Eden..time was continuing to pass..and just about anything could have happened. Heck the dinosaurs could have built spaceships and all went to Andromeda .. or evolved into beings of light (just examples people). We are not given any time frame for Eden. We do not know how long Adam or Eve spent there. Since they didn't have to keep track of time (being immortal), and one day was the same as the next.
It is only AFTER they are kicked out of Eden that the 'generations' are kept. Which is supposed to be what...6,000 years or so. The problem here is .. Cain and Abel. Where did they get their wives from? The land of Nod. Not 'their sisters', or anything .. they went to another land .. called Nod..and got wives. Why? How? If no other beings but they existed..this would be impossible. My hypothesis is, if the bible is to be believed that this is what happened to Neanderthals. So in theory both are possible. We could be of both divine and 'evolved' origin. Which a being that could tell the future would have set in motion a long long time ago.
Plausible? Probably not. However, it is a theory which would explain a bit. One unfortunately can not be tested or proved. Just something to consider.
Problem is, you can craft any theory and there's no doubt that, with the rights adjustments, it will fit the Bible's text. There's however no way to create a consistent, logically constructed theory without blindly believing or assuming something which can not be proven. Like that Adam and Eve were immortal - as far as the current biology can tell, this is not possible. It is equally impossible that they - or their generation - have lived for 300-1000 years as the Bible claims, no matter from where you start counting. And in the end, as already stated, the very idea that an entire race could originate from a single, fully developed couple, completely contradicts the evolution theory.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 12, 2013 09:06 AM |
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Quote:
I never even said God WOULD be evil, I just said if God is beyond our reason he is unpredictable so he COULD be evil too. And my reasons and Serhapim's were quite different. You were misdirectionally stuck with the idea of being tested back then, guess you skipped it.
It seems, you don't get the point. As soon, as you give god all these attributes like omnipotence, HE is the yardstick. If God can indeed do everything, like Seraphim is insisting for the sake of his argument, then HE defines Good and Evil and whether it exists, not you, me or Seraphim.
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Rome and modern times can have a lot in common, so what? (Besides, they don't smoke weed )
Well, you know Roman and Christian history then. It would seem that while they had both laws and the chance to express themselves, they still felt the need to find something to strengthen the Empire, so that's why they invented the Roman-Catholic Church.
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I guess you think a little highly of yourself, what defeat? You defending the Bible at the level of Intelligent Design pseudo-science talking weirdos and me pointing it out is defeat? You're smart JJ, I'll give you that, but not THAT smart. BS is BS no matter how resourceful you present it.
Dude, I'm not defending anything, I'm ATTACKING Seraphim's and your idea, that you can wipe away a couple thousand years of philosophical discussion with one silly, polemic youtube-video. "The free will of the woman, not to be raped." If that's not foolish, I don't know what is.
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And digging the snow out of every commonly used words' semantics don't give you the higher ground you assume it does.I don't think they care if it's true or not is a very clear statement. Trying to blur it with vague tactics like "truth, what is truth, does truth exist, does existence exist? etc etc" shows you'll go all the way down the line instead of admitting your reasoning is flawed.
And *I* think, that *you* don't care about truth either; you care only about "being right". But you ain't. You have to invest a bit more effort when you want to make specific statements about things where the actual problem is the existence, not an attribute.
You should know, that a line of argument
a) God is a fabrication
b) If not he's evil
is not the way to go at that. It's the other way round
a) The God, how he is described, is a contradiction
b) That's why he can't exist the way he is described.
That's basically all there is to say about it.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 12, 2013 09:21 AM |
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Quote:
@Mytical
Yay, christian apologetics strike again.
Have no clue what this means. If you are assuming I am a Christian..well you know what assuming does right? Makes an *** out of U. Not a Christian thanks much.
As for not one couple, I covered that I believe. Ie that the wives of Cain and Abel were NOT from Adam and Eve. However, as I said..it is just a theory.
Now a serious question for the more scientific minds out there. ((Please excuse my ignorance, looking to learn nothing more)). Wouldn't the same problem come along from Evolution though? IE there HAS to be the first of a species, regardless when/how..there MUST be a first. Now unless there was constant evolving from the 'older species'..wouldn't the same issue with Adam and Eve come along regardless? IE inbreeding?
Also a not so serious question. Why is it that people can fathom energy/matter coming from 'nowhere', but not a being coming from 'nowhere'? Why is it that some can fathom a being coming from nowhere, but not matter/energy.
Listen..the universe has to have a 'starting point'. No matter how long ago, even if (and it is very doubtful that it goes that far back) it is a google years ago..at one point in 'time' there was a 'beginning'. Where did the matter/energy come from? Why is it easier to think that matter/energy just 'appeared into being', then a being that created the universe 'appeared into being'..or vice versa? Makes no sense (to me) to be able to fathom one, but not the other. There has to be a 'beginning' at some point in time. How did that beginning happen?
It is also foolhardy to think we know even 1/100000th of a 1/100000th of 1% of the knowledge of the universe. We live in one small pebble, in one tiny pond (the galaxy)..and think we know how things happen across the universe. That would be like an ant that has never left it's hive thinking it knows how the world works. Keeping an open mind about things is the most logical thing to do. Because once you eliminate the possibility of something, no matter how implausible, even if evidence shows up to prove you wrong..you might miss it entirely.
I am not religious, nor am I anti-religious. I keep an open mind. Still have yet to have my main question answered to my liking, and doubt I ever will. Which is..what makes any one religion better then another?
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Message received.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 09:25 AM |
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Most of them claim: Only by this religion you will find God/enlightenment, which is not exactly true, I believe. According to Christianity, wich I follow, Jesus is the only way to God but that doesn't mean all the other religions are to be dismissed.
I don't think my religion is the best or anything, I'm aware it's not even that old compared to the Asian ones.
As for what what makes a religion better than another, that's a pretty subjective decision.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2013 09:25 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 09:48, 12 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
...that you can wipe away a couple thousand years of philosophical discussion
Quite bold move there. Thousands of years? The only time in history where philosphoy had its heights was during the time of ancient greeks.
Thousands of years Copy-Paste from greek-egyptioan mythology and knowledge.
Seriously, philosophy did not "Evolve" or progress. Its during this time where people are able to speak freele.
So, what the snow are you talking about?
I find it lamentable that you think that all deities that have existed before are in someform the same.
Zeus is very different from Yahweh and so are other gods. I was trying to counter the whole "All powerful" attrubute of Yahweh. Certainly, zeus, Horus and so on were not "All-Powerful". If you think that language is not "Fit enough" to describe such things, then I have nothing to discuss here.
I was discussing about Religion. This thread is about RELIGION, the WAY GOD IS WRITTEN in the BIBLE,QURAN and Tora and Co.
Got that?
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with one silly, polemic youtube-video.
Actually champion of the Bible and religion, all you did is counter with senteces that were Non-Sequitor. Seriously, you made as much sense as Elodin.
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"The free will of the woman, not to be raped." If that's not foolish, I don't know what is.
All you did is so "Oh no, thats garbage" and then proceeded with your own Non-sequitor garbage. So let me say this, if you think that by presenting a completely irrelevant point with no argumentation whatsoever and have the nerve to tell others to "Learn" more, then actually, your are just arrogant.
You are just like elodin, except that instead of throwing bible verses, you throw irrelevant sentences. A troll and your answers were spam. Here is some advice for you: Learn to read and ask before you make a fool of yourself by taking what I said out of context.
You actually managed to piss me off, kudos to you.
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 12, 2013 09:38 AM |
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Quote:
Now a serious question for the more scientific minds out there. ((Please excuse my ignorance, looking to learn nothing more)). Wouldn't the same problem come along from Evolution though? IE there HAS to be the first of a species, regardless when/how..there MUST be a first. Now unless there was constant evolving from the 'older species'..wouldn't the same issue with Adam and Eve come along regardless? IE inbreeding?
Mutations, that is, cell changes just "happen". If a mutation is inherited, that one is given to any offspring (both forms are possible). In this case the mutation will spread fast, and then it's a matter of survivability and sexual attraction. The "spark of intelligence" mutation seems to add survivability, and that is quite probably sexually attractive as well - and vice versa. I would guess, since the initial mutation will not have been an immediate quantum leap, that there has been a starter somewhere in Africa, spreading the gene in a first generation offspring, and since he or she would be a pretty clever ape, compared to the rest, (s)he would be attractive and might mate again with one of his/her offspring (which would be clever apes as well, and therefore more attractive). In my mind they would separate fast from the others, within a few generations.
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Also a not so serious question. Why is it that people can fathom energy/matter coming from 'nowhere', but not a being coming from 'nowhere'? Why is it that some can fathom a being coming from nowhere, but not matter/energy.
Well, they can't. That's why big bang isn't telling a believable story. It doesn't come from "nowhere", it's just that we don't see where from.
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Listen..the universe has to have a 'starting point'. No matter how long ago, even if (and it is very doubtful that it goes that far back) it is a google years ago..at one point in 'time' there was a 'beginning'. Where did the matter/energy come from? Why is it easier to think that matter/energy just 'appeared into being', then a being that created the universe 'appeared into being'..or vice versa? Makes no sense (to me) to be able to fathom one, but not the other. There has to be a 'beginning' at some point in time. How did that beginning happen?
I'm not sure this logic is applicable in that case. Whether it's the universe or the creator being - in both cases we need an explanation where they come from - or why the ARE. A creator-being doesn't gain any additional explanatory value: You have X (the known Universe). You are looking for Y (what made it happen and why and how). It doesn't help to postulate, Y is a being that made it all, because that leaves the same questions: What made HIM happen and why and how (plus a couple more, like what are his motives and so on).
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2013 09:46 AM |
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Quote:
Wouldn't the same problem come along from Evolution though? IE there HAS to be the first of a species, regardless when/how..there MUST be a first. Now unless there was constant evolving from the 'older species'..wouldn't the same issue with Adam and Eve come along regardless? IE inbreeding?
No, it's not the same. Adam and Eve are complete "homo sapiens", with zero differences to the homo sapienses that can be seen all around today. According to the evolution theory, dropping a complete specie out of nowhere is not possible. And according to the Bible, God created the first couple as 100% developed representatives of their specie.
Quote:
Also a not so serious question. Why is it that people can fathom energy/matter coming from 'nowhere', but not a being coming from 'nowhere'? Why is it that some can fathom a being coming from nowhere, but not matter/energy.
Not sure that I understand.
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Listen..the universe has to have a 'starting point'.
Not exactly. First, you have to define what a "starting point" means. Second - with today's scientific methods, we can measure the "age" of the universe only using the current laws of physics. Without them as a base, there is no way to tell how old the Universe actually is. There's a general consensus that some "time" (use with caution) after the universe "came to being" (use with extreme caution), the physical laws differed vastly from today's, hence the inability to tell what had been happening "before" the point when the information became readable for us. Since the very definition of "time" is also dependent on the natural laws, you first need to understand them completely and to know their dynamics (if there is any) to be able to draw any conclusions about whether the world is X years old or if it has any age at all.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 09:46 AM |
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God is love. Perfect love casts out all fear. So God being evil makes no sense for Christians. Before you say hell let me remind you it was made for the devil and his angels, those who wanted to be like God.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2013 09:50 AM |
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So... God doesn't love the Devil.  To every rule there's an exception, eh?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 09:51 AM |
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He loves the Devil too, but Satan willingly rebelled against God. Thus a place for him was made. He could no longer be in God's presence. I'm not sure the devil will ever be redeemed but with God all things are possible.
____________
Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 12, 2013 09:51 AM |
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Quote:
You are just like elodin, except that instead of throwing bible verses, you throw irrelevant sentences. A troll and your answers were spam. Here is some advice for you: Learn to read and ask before you make a fool of yourself by taking what I said out of context.
You actually managed to piss me off, kudos to you.
So now you play the poor misunderstood? Dude, you've been ranting from the start.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 12, 2013 09:51 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 10:10, 12 Apr 2013.
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Quote:
God is love. Perfect love casts out all fear. So God being evil makes no sense for Christians. Before you say hell let me remind you it was made for the devil and his angels, those who wanted to be like God.
...and how is that supposed to make sense?
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So now you play the poor misunderstood? Dude, you've been ranting from the start.
And you came here for a monologue. You may have felt the need ot defend the Verse-Throwers with incomprehensible babble.
Actually, I never understood what you were saying all the time. It was as if you were trying really hard to counter and insult every point.
I mean seriously, thousands of years of philosphical discussions? How am I supposed to take this seriously?
Or "It is far more important to prove that god is useless if he exists" Very poetic. But you ignored that part where I said that if a god cannot defy logic or nature or be able to make miracles(Like the bible mentions how Jesus cured Leprosey or walked over water), then it is no god. So basically, everything else you said was pointless.
Then you came around to talk about how language has limitations and that the concept of God is still viable.
But whatever,i am done with you anyway. Nothing to discuss.
____________
"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2013 09:53 AM |
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Quote:
He loves the Devil too, but Satan willingly rebelled against God. Thus a place for him was made. He could no longer be in God's presence. I'm not sure the devil will ever be redeemed but with God all things are possible.
Then we return to the point about why God tortures the subjects that he loves. In this case the cigar is not a cigar.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 12, 2013 09:55 AM |
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The Devil could no longer be in heaven, he was not good any more. Hell was created for him. That doesn't make sense?
I don't believe anyone will be tortured to no end in some tar pit, I believe all punishment leads to redemption.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted April 12, 2013 10:01 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:02, 12 Apr 2013.
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Let me explain. You have a girlfriend. You love her. She however does something nasty - cheats on you, lies to you about something important, behaves badly in general. Would you, say, flay her skin because of that? Even the skin of her little finger? Even just once and never do it again?
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